Fuelling for cycles

Macy0161

I fuel anything that is like a workout, regardless of whether I physically "need" it to complete the workout. There's enough science there for me anyway, and it reduces RPE. Notwithstanding Enduro's specialist experience in Ultra events, imo there's a lot of the cycling equivalent of "bro science" that says to do stuff "fasted*". I may be able, but to what actual benefit? I'm not planning on doing events where I won't have access.

fwiw on a Saturday spin 100km, I'd normally go for a couple of bottles of carb mix. After that I usually just bring a banana and nature valley (well Harvest Morn) granola bars. I'd always have the banana, and then at least one of the packs of bars depending on the pace/ elevation, is there going to be a stop etc. With a power meter, I've a pretty good idea what I'm going through. I don't normally have breakfast, but I'm not glycogen depleted going off.

Could I get through without eating? Probably. Am I less liable to come home and eat all around me when I get home if I go steady through out? Definitely.

*most people are just skipping breakfast rather than being glycogen depleted. Often the "why are you eating" fella's put more into them calorie wise in coffee and cake than I do - which is their want but not how they portray it during a spin in my experience.

Plastik

dinneenp wrote: »

If I knew what he looks like and I know where I'm looking.....

Major respect to him for competing in it.

I'll let the man himself out his own online anonymity if he likes, not for me to do it! I'm only aware of the exploits second hand from an ultrarunning friend.

CramCycle

I've a friend who does trail running and some of the stories, for such a methodical person in his work life, once the mind goes on those races, you are just wasting energy from that point on. One race through the Wicklow Hills and he done a small loop of a few extra km when he was already blown because he felt the map was wrong and was convinced his compass was broken. After the extra few kms where he ended up exactly where he started to disbelieve them, he then had to take a break while to talked himself into believing his compass.

MangleBadger

CramCycle wrote: »

I've a friend who does trail running and some of the stories, for such a methodical person in his work life, once the mind goes on those races, you are just wasting energy from that point on. One race through the Wicklow Hills and he done a small loop of a few extra km when he was already blown because he felt the map was wrong and was convinced his compass was broken. After the extra few kms where he ended up exactly where he started to disbelieve them, he then had to take a break while to talked himself into believing his compass.

Sounds like dehydration. A previous coach always preached the importance of hydrating as you just made stupid decisions if you didn't

Enduro

MangleBadger wrote: »

How is that?

MTB racing example... Competitor ahead slows down to pick up something at the feed zone. I don't and pass them out (I usually raced more even paced than my fellow MTBers, so overtakes were usually definitive)

Marathon racing example... Was in the lead group. Aproaching the Aid stations I would accerlerate. The others had the choice of mathcing and not getting aid, or slowing to pick up anything at all from the aid station, but that would "break the elastic band". I knew they probably had a psycholgical reliance on picking up food/liquid at the aid station, so even if they didn't stop I reckoned I was, to put it politely, possibly taking them a little further out of their psycholigical comfort zone than they would have anticipated. This worked very well indeed.

Ultra running example... getting into head to head races with people and deliberately not stopping at aid station to try to see who had the bigger edurance for not needing food/liquids. Similar to above, tends to work well.

Another ultra running example... was in a very famous classic race that had over 50 aid stations. just work out the time difference between averaging about a minute per aid station (good runners), 2 or 3 minutes per station (a lot of runners), or about 10 seconds (the likes of me and other similar runners). It adds up to a lot. The effort required to make up that cumulative time difference is huge.

Enduro

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

On purpose?
Or for science?

Racing. Very much on purpose.

Enduro

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is a given is your recovery will be a lot longer and harder if you don't eat so depending on your training that is a massive consideration..

I totally disagree, from experience. Although I do absloutely relish the recovery meals as a result. That's a benifit as far as I'm concerned, as opposed to feeling queezy from eating tons of sugary crap (there's a whole other line of discussion there... the amount of people who literally make themselves sick from over eating crap to some kind of stupid "need to eat" schedule during long exercise is phenomal)

Darkglasses

Having a coffee and something sweet at half-time is definitely part of the fun for me. Nothing scientific about it, and there doesn't have to be if that's not your thing OP.

+1 here for Turkish Delight, and Anzac biccies are a great shout. Gels are fine, but for me I'd look for grub I enjoy.

I probably do more running than cycling these days, and I find running is generally less conducive to eating during the exercise. Nowhere to carry it, and you're much more stable on the bike. I make up for it at the end

If you want to be more scientific and performance focused, there's some great advice elsewhere in this thread

secman

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

@Enduro has competed in it.

Graveyards and churches are my preferred option over GAA pitches for water

We're not all sinners though

Tombo2001

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is it with cyclists constantly overestimating their calorific consumption on long rides?

You never see runners wanting to bring packed lunches with them on 30k+ long runs yet cyclists on 100k spins are consuming in and around the same calories and think they need to bring the whole of aldi with them..lol

What you do see all the time is runners plodding along with bottles in their hand or taped to their waste.

You will never ever ever see a decent runner do this, unless its an ultramarathon person.

If you are hydrated in advance, you do not need to drink for straight run up to 10k.

Enduro

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

When did eating become a bad habit?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that thinking you "need" to eat is the bad habit, even for purely recreational spins. It creates a psycholigcal dependancy, and has potential to be a cause of worry/panic.

So, to use an example, when I was doing a big day leisure spin on my holidays in Gran Canaria in the lovely pre-plague days, taking in the "Valley of the Tears" as a big loop. After leaving San Nicolas on the GC210 it felt like a long big effort to get to the junction of GC606. But Jesus... that was just the gentle approach to the guts of the climb, which went on and on and on. There was nowhere that I saw to but food over the course of that whole climb, but I wasn't at all bothered, and was just enjoying how the route was living up to the brutality of its reputation (and the super views and weather etc). I know alot of people that I kno would have been in a big panic about "running out of fuel" in similar circumstance, which would probably have turned an enjoyable spin into more of an ordeal.

Enduro

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Art O Neill has got to be a give away.

that wasn't me. He was a Belgian lad who happened to have taken part in both.

You'll see me in this one....

JimmiesRustled

Enduro wrote: »

Racing. Very much on purpose.

Really appreciate the alternative view of this and your own experience.

From your own experience and specifically within races have you found, or did you find when you first started doing this, that you were hampered any time you went Anaerobic as you're in a state of ketosis?

I only ask as I did quite a lot of IF a couple of years back and found I could plod away all day no issue with no food but as soon as I got into a race situation or even threw in efforts over threshold on to the end of a spin I really struggled to stay on top of the power.

MangleBadger

Enduro wrote: »

MTB racing example... Competitor ahead slows down to pick up something at the feed zone. I don't and pass them out (I usually raced more even paced than my fellow MTBers, so overtakes were usually definitive)

Marathon racing example... Was in the lead group. Aproaching the Aid stations I would accerlerate. The others had the choice of mathcing and not getting aid, or slowing to pick up anything at all from the aid station, but that would "break the elastic band". I knew they probably had a psycholgical reliance on picking up food/liquid at the aid station, so even if they didn't stop I reckoned I was, to put it politely, possibly taking them a little further out of their psycholigical comfort zone than they would have anticipated. This worked very well indeed.

Ultra running example... getting into head to head races with people and deliberately not stopping at aid station to try to see who had the bigger edurance for not needing food/liquids. Similar to above, tends to work well.

Another ultra running example... was in a very famous classic race that had over 50 aid stations. just work out the time difference between averaging about a minute per aid station (good runners), 2 or 3 minutes per station (a lot of runners), or about 10 seconds (the likes of me and other similar runners). It adds up to a lot. The effort required to make up that cumulative time difference is huge.

That is what I figured you meant. So it's not the fuelling itself more the time taken to fuel etc.
I also presume you have trained yourself to perform this way? Are you keto based?
I would say your average Joe's performance is going to be improved by fuelling throughout.

Enduro

Plastik wrote: »

I'll let the man himself out his own online anonymity if he likes, not for me to do it! I'm only aware of the exploits second hand from an ultrarunning friend.

FWIW, I've no problem with my identity being known, so no problem if anyone wants to make reference to my "real world" persona!

Enduro

MangleBadger wrote: »

Sounds like dehydration. A previous coach always preached the importance of hydrating as you just made stupid decisions if you didn't

More likely to be extreme fatigue or sleep deprivation, I'd guess. Sometime the trick is actually knowing when your mind is going. In a team event you'd let your teams mates know (and if you were navigating, had over the map to someone more lucid).

Brian?

With all due respect to you Enduro, you're the last person a fat Fred like myself should be mimicking. You've trained your body to this point and it's very admirable. But it takes training, it would be cool hardy for me to go out for more than 90mins without food, I'd end up struggling and I would miss out on quality training kms because I'd be too hungry.

So I eat at 60 mins and then every 30 mins after if I'm doing more than 90 mins with no cafe stop. If I have a cafe stop half way I don't eat really on the way home. I always bring gels for an emergency. Depending on the terrain, my fitness level and massively on the weather I may need them. People really seem to ignore the effect of cold weather on calorie consumption.

monkeysnapper

I would be of average fitness and do a few 100km cycles through pretty hilly locations ( elevation gain of 1200m)

The usual I would take on my cycles which I consider a bit more than I need because there's no shops ...

2 bottles of lucozade sport mixed half with water. That would do me for whole cycle.

2 bananas

A small bag of jellies

High quality peanut butter and jam on cracker bread. No bigger than half a sandwich wrapped in tin foil. ( emergency food )

Nuts and dried fruit ( handful in bag)

But prior before I set out which is early in morn usually I eat a good bowl of portage with nuts and dried fruit and a bit of water.

Very often on 1st cycle of year id clear up the food but after a bit of what I call match fitness id come home with jellies, sandwich ...

Hope this helps and good luck my friend ..... peace and love

Tombo2001

One big difference between running and cycling in my view is that you can really load up on carbs just before a long cycle, or during it.

But with the run....I really wouldnt be eating much in the three hours before a race.

MayoSalmon

Enduro wrote: »

I totally disagree, from experience. Although I do absloutely relish the recovery meals as a result. That's a benifit as far as I'm concerned, as opposed to feeling queezy from eating tons of sugary crap (there's a whole other line of discussion there... the amount of people who literally make themselves sick from over eating crap to some kind of stupid "need to eat" schedule during long exercise is phenomal)

Just science mate....disagree with it all you want really..you have depleted your glycogen stores and it will take at least 24 hours from ingestion to replenish and refuel. The longer you wait to eat the longer your muscles have to wait to replenish said glycogen.

km991148

One or two small bars of something like this over a longer ride keeps me going (or one of them and a banana)
https://eatnakd.com/#

Small, natural, bit of carb.

A good breakfast before I set out maybe (eggs and toast, protein/carb mix).

That's what I think anyway, but inevitably I'll end up stopping and getting a massive slab of cake or tray bake etc as well. Doesn't necessarily have to be sa long ride either :pac:..!

Peterx

It's all personal to the individual, as said up thread.

I would never bring sugar in my bottles or gels in my pockets on a 100k training ride. Real food or natural fruit bars are better for me.The one exception would be trying out new sugar in the bottle to ensure it agrees with my stomach.

I would always bring sugar (High 5) plus a dioralyte sachet in my bottles and gels in my pockets for races.
In a short* race you are burning energy at a very high rate and need very simple sugars to replenish that energy. It's also much easier to neck a gel than get real food in when you are under pressure in a race.
In a very short** race I typically don't eat or drink anything although I usually carry a gel for luck, and never eat it.

* with the bould Enduro posting in the thread a short race in this context is 2-4 hours.
** a cyclocross race

Macy0161

Definitely n=1. But I personally don't have an issue with using mixes/ gels, as any "real" food I eat is going to be high sugar anyway. But why I tend to go for at least one bottle mix is that I know I'll get it into me, particularly as I tend to be full finger gloves most of the year (due to circulation issues).

I don't very often buy bike specific bars/ gels/ drinks - nutrigrain/ nature valley type stuff is what I use more often than not, and Clif bars if they're on offer. I mix my own carb drink mix, although fructose seems to be a bit harder to get post Brexit (at least from myprotein/ bulk).

I do sometime make "GCN Energy Bars" (google/ YouTube), which you can portion off as suits. Actually for Saturday's long ride, as well as the GCN bars, I made Nutella rice cakes, and they were alright too. I was listening to the Geriant Thomas podcast, and they had the former skineos nutritionist on - he was pushing rice cakes because of the water content as well as the simple carbs. I was probably a bit stingy with the Nutella, but definitely something I'll be experimenting more as we have a rice cooker which makes cooking very easy!

tl; dr it doesn't have to be expensive SIS stuff.

saccades

Plastik wrote: »

I'll let the man himself out his own online anonymity if he likes, not for me to do it! I'm only aware of the exploits second hand from an ultrarunning friend.

I once went for a MTB spin with enduro and killed myself to beat him up the Wicklow gap (after ewoks) and up turlough hill and felt awesome.

Then found out he was back from some mental week long event the night before and he was feeling "a bit tired".

Duracell should use him instead of the bunny.

On a regular club spin I'll have a bowl of porridge and take a flapjack type thing as a jic plus water (will add a sugar mix if on the road bike).

Anything over 5 hours and I'll be doing a constant mini munch instead.

Reality_Check1

Speaking from a purely exercise physiology point of view which I have some experience please split this debate into 2 categories - recreational 100k and racing 100k.

First recreational 100k. Depending on the intensity you probably don't "need" to eat. You will be able to create enough energy from fat stores to keep the peddles turning. You might not feel great but you'll get there.

Racing at 100k or a high effort is a different story. The average person will burn through muscle glycogen stores in an average of 90-120 mins. At higher intensities you won't be able to take in and utilise enough oxygen to create new glycogen in the liver and your overall power will drop. Yes you can train this to a certain degree but its easier to take in more energy through eating than relying on secondary systems

Note that its the intensity level and long events that make "bonking" kind of unique to cycling racing

Mundo7976

Im fat and using cycling mainly to get back to fitness & is working so far. My biggest cycle is 50km so far, I dont feel the need for food while out, yet. TBH id rarely get halfway through my water&barley mix preferring to drink before & after rides. But i do suffer with the legs sometimes. Where, when or what salts do i need to be using to alleviate this?

ednwireland

make your own refined sugar free energy bars, no cook as well

https://recipes.lidl.ie/recipes/refined-sugar-free-energy-bars

Yourmama

On a ride up to 2.5hours I don't eat anything. If it's longer than that, I'd start eating from 2h mark one bar per hour, unless it's well over 150k, then more often. On 100k I'd take two bars with me and a 700ml bottle. 2x500ml on a warmer day.

dahat

Also Bora stuck a rice cake recipe up earlier that’s as basic as you get, I’ve no rice cooker so a pot will have to do.

One thing, is sushi rice normal white sticky rice?

dinneenp

Thanks for the replies. So I've refined to 2 bananas, 2 bottles of water (bidons), 1 flap jack & 2 gels (which I mightn't use).

Might stop half way for a cuppa and small bite (just for pleasure, not aiming at re-fueling) halfway (at Leenane).

Cheers,
Pa.