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When I apply for a job and it asks for sexuality/etc at the end, why is that? Does it

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    JayRoc wrote: »
    My point was that you said it was standard. It obviously isn't.

    That so many people (including myself, my spouse, my siblings and every other person I have asked in passing about this today) have never even heard of this kind of stuff, shows to me at least that it is not "standard".

    I think we can all ( and I include myself in this) be guilty of thinking that our little corner of the world is representative of the majority.

    Maybe I should have said becoming quite standard. But then I've seen this at least 15, maybe 20 years ago so that's not quite right.

    Either way, based on my own and others (the basis that I made my comment on, and stated as such) I said it was quite (or fairly) standard.

    I didn't state categorically that it was THE standard, as this would imply that everyone does this (and therefore unlikely we would be having this discussion or thread even - as you say, it obviously isn't).

    But put it another way: it's becoming more and more common, probably more so in some sectors, and has been around for a long while.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭Pandiculation


    My question is what safe guards are there in place to prevent this data being used in a discriminatory way and where is it being stored, who has access to it etc?

    I mean just as an example, I don’t necessarily want an employer to know some of that stuff. What happens if you get a homophobic or sectarian manager or something like that?

    How do I know I didn’t get a role because of what I filled in on that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,230 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    ari101 wrote: »
    Sometimes information that could be considered sensitive is requested for 'diversity measuring/monitoring', but companies generally say if they ask for this reason. I believe the idea is to allow them to ensure hiring practices are not discriminatory.

    This.
    The idea is if ever down the line they need to prove they are not being discriminate the company can say we hire 4 people who identify as homosexual or 2 as disabled.... the company does not need to say oh it's John from accounting or anything like that. In fact they can't elude to any identifying markers as to who. But they can say how many they do. GDPR and all that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,766 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    My question is what safe guards are there in place to prevent this data being used in a discriminatory way and where is it being stored, who has access to it etc?

    I mean just as an example, I don’t necessarily want an employer to know some of that stuff. What happens if you get a homophobic or sectarian manager or something like that?

    How do I know I didn’t get a role because of what I filled in on that?

    That information is not going to the interview panel, so should not be used against you in that way.
    If you feel you have been discriminated against in your interview I'd imagine you have legal avenues you could go down, and the company would be on the back foot as you have proof you disclosed this sensitive information to them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    One of my sisters works in HR. The larger the company and the entire public sector now have these but they have only crept in over the last decade following the UK/US where they would have been standardish for the last 20/30 years or so. I've worked in both the UK and the US and have seen examples of these.

    I'd take a guess, if you only have worked in Ireland and not for a multinational or any arm of the public sector, this will be a surprise. It's not some new woke thing that's just been invented.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭Pandiculation


    GingerLily wrote: »
    That information is not going to the interview panel, so should not be used against you in that way.
    If you feel you have been discriminated against in your interview I'd imagine you have legal avenues you could go down, and the company would be on the back foot as you have proof you disclosed this sensitive information to them.

    But what if it goes on file somewhere or you get the job and someone has access to it? Then you get the possibility of even unconscious biases against you and so on.

    I don’t know really trust databases to have that level of information about me.


  • Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    On every job application, it asked for sexuality. You weren't obliged to provide the answer.

    It usually helped you get to interview stage (same as identifying as an irish traveller).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,658 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Definitely sexuality, saw it on a recent application and I've been wondering about it since but I have seen it before. I've no problems answering questions like that, I'm just curious

    I'd be putting that application in the bin


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,658 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    kathleen37 wrote: »
    It's very common. No one has to answer if they'd rather not.

    I don't believe that


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭ByTheSea2019


    This was in the UK, but I previously saw a job I would have liked and couldn't apply for because it said "LGBT only" in the job title. I'm assuming they are allowed to reserve a number of jobs for under-represented groups.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭granturismo


    Cal4567 wrote: »
    ... the entire public sector now have these ...
    I'd take a guess, if you only have worked in Ireland and not for a multinational or any arm of the public sector, this will be a surprise. It's not some new woke thing that's just been invented.

    I've been involved in the application process for several public sector posts and one civil service post in the past 12 months and also in recent years. None of the application processes have asked candidates to indicate which of the categories relevant to discrimination they identify as. They may have issued a questionnaire to the successful candidate on accepting the post - I wasnt involved in that part.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭sekond


    I've been involved in the application process for several public sector posts and one civil service post in the past 12 months and also in recent years. None of the application processes have asked candidates to indicate which of the categories relevant to discrimination they identify as. They may have issued a questionnaire to the successful candidate on accepting the post - I wasnt involved in that part.

    Were they run through PAS? In that case, they ask these questions as part of the registration process (and I presume can pull out the statistics if required for particular competitions - e.g. 10% of people applying for this role were female, not Joe Bloggs who applied for this role identifies as...).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    No, it's not - not in Ireland.

    Are you in Ireland?

    I've been asked on every role I've ever applied for here.

    Also NI. Though that is specifically in relation to Equal Opportunities

    https://www.equalityni.org/EqualOpportunities

    Yes. I'm in Ireland. Worked in both Eire and NI (and UK)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,620 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    Just curious why they ask my sexuality (I'm gay) so does that mean it works in my favour to declare that as I'd have a tiny edge as it'd help their pool of diversity in the company.

    I assume it's a public service role. I was asked on my last two applications the same thing. I assume they've to fill quotas judging by the amount of gay people they hired in the last round, roughly 50%.

    It's nice to see how progressive we've become, asking someone where they stick their genitals is obviously the best way to go, not experience or suitability to the role.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,772 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    This is where I have a slight doubt about gathering this information(from what people have said, will not go towards the interview panel). What happens end of year the board or whoever look at the replies and see 10% of interviews were a certain cohorts but only 5% hired? Does that change maybe future hiring practices? I'm not say this info will be released and people will be discriminated against (perhaps indirectly?), but its a concern. Best person for the job should get it. See no need for these questions at all.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    This is where I have a slight doubt about gathering this information(from what people have said, will not go towards the interview panel). What happens end of year the board or whoever look at the replies and see 10% of interviews were a certain cohorts but only 5% hired? Does that change maybe future hiring practices? I'm not say this info will be released and people will be discriminated against (perhaps indirectly?), but its a concern. Best person for the job should get it. See no need for these questions at all.

    Actually, having over 20 years experience in hiring my own teams, although I know those questions were asked, my understanding was that answers were not known by HR (certainly not by me as a hiring manager) but by a separate reporting company.

    Regarding hiring practices, I have never been told "we're down on the female/LBGT/etc quota so make sure you hire ....."

    But who knows? Perhaps someone was looking at my hires and I would have been pulled if there was an issue?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,772 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Kathleen37. Thanks. Good response. I was just curious, maybe even frustrated at something I deem pointless, as been recently in the looking to be hired process.

    I'd need to read further some of the links, specifically on external companies holding data, although I'm sure all due diligence had been done.

    Anecdotally, I have had managers not hire a woman who wore an engagement ring(a good while a go)...although slightly off topic.

    Who in the company new about the details then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭kathleen37



    Who in the company new about the details then?

    Honestly? I don't know. Perhaps someone who works in HR can confirm if they have access? I seem to remember that it may say that the data is held anonymously? I certainly had dealings with the NI Equality Commission in regard audits in relation to my interview questions/notes/scoring/shortlisting for roles. Diversity was never specifically mentioned by them to me. They always just spoke about fairness in general.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,772 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Ah right.
    I wasn't having a go at you there. Just curious.
    Thanks for all your responses. I just started a new job so can't face reading more pdfs of policy and procedures tonight!

    Suppose back to the OP, my take now being further educated, is the same. Doesn't matter. Sure anyone has FOI act if you're concerned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,684 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    This was in the UK, but I previously saw a job I would have liked and couldn't apply for because it said "LGBT only" in the job title. I'm assuming they are allowed to reserve a number of jobs for under-represented groups.

    What was the job for ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,684 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    In Ireland? Which large employers in Ireland use these questions?



    In Ireland? Which employers in Ireland use these questions?

    It's not common in the UK either despite what people are saying.

    Infact it's the opposite and people would normally be terrified of asking about your sexuality or race in an interview except to ask are you form the UK or hold a valid passport/permit for work


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    It's not common in the UK either despite what people are saying.

    Infact it's the opposite and people would normally be terrified of asking about your sexuality or race in an interview except to ask are you form the UK or hold a valid passport/permit for work

    No one is asked any such questions in an interview. (they certainly shouldn't be anyways)

    Its a voluntary diversity questionnaire that people do not have to respond to, when making a job application.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    Ah right.
    I wasn't having a go at you there. Just curious.
    Thanks for all your responses. I just started a new job so can't face reading more pdfs of policy and procedures tonight!

    Suppose back to the OP, my take now being further educated, is the same. Doesn't matter. Sure anyone has FOI act if you're concerned.

    Jees. No worries. Your question got me thinking.

    Peace


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    it’s all over the place in Iteland and has been standard for big companies for years - that along with illegal screening questions demanding to know the caring responsibilities you have, if you have a disability, in MANY public service instances the year you did your leaving cert and ‘grades’ - so they can exactly pinpoint your age which is illegal to ask, also standard question in drop down box about sex - male/female/other/prefer not to say, and the standard and totally illegal requirement for Most university (ie government jobs) of three written references along with job application yet ‘ canvassing discriminates’.

    If you think all this information is not going to be accessed by others in some form of other that will identify you in your career or will not be used to actively discriminate in some way against someone then you are delusional.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,684 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    kathleen37 wrote: »
    No one is asked any such questions in an interview. (they certainly shouldn't be anyways)

    Its a voluntary diversity questionnaire that people do not have to respond to, when making a job application.

    Right fair enough. I would still say they are very very uncommon and have never heard any friends from the UK ever being asked to fill one out and have never asked myself or been instructed to ask people I interviewed in the UK


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,772 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I think what Kathleen37 was saying was that it doesn't go to interviews or asked to ask the potential employees about any of the discrimination 9(please correct me if I misinterpreted) . I don't know uk interviewing procedures or if common to ask, specifically about sexuality, as I've never been asked.

    However, I see no need to ask...again outside applying to the job, I've written job specs, interviewed loads, I don't care.

    The curious thing I learned that it's an outside company gathering data, but who sees it in the company. I find it hard to fathom no one does and it won't be made available to future recruitment pushes. Above my pay grade I imagine. Pr probably.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I assume it's a public service role. I was asked on my last two applications the same thing. I assume they've to fill quotas judging by the amount of gay people they hired in the last round, roughly 50%.

    It's nice to see how progressive we've become, asking someone where they stick their genitals is obviously the best way to go, not experience or suitability to the role.

    That's didn't happen. You'll need to come up with a better excuse for not getting the job.

    ?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi867.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab239%2FNerdkiller%2Ffatherteddreamsreality2.gif&f=1&nofb=1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    I assume it's a public service role. I was asked on my last two applications the same thing. I assume they've to fill quotas judging by the amount of gay people they hired in the last round, roughly 50%.

    It's nice to see how progressive we've become, asking someone where they stick their genitals is obviously the best way to go, not experience or suitability to the role.

    No it's so they can sit you next to Ryan in Accounting who is super cute, h.r. is just a woke dating agency nowadays they've nothing else to do with their time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,131 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    I assume it's a public service role. I was asked on my last two applications the same thing. I assume they've to fill quotas judging by the amount of gay people they hired in the last round, roughly 50%.

    It's nice to see how progressive we've become, asking someone where they stick their genitals is obviously the best way to go, not experience or suitability to the role.
    I have been in the public service for 15 plus years....I have literally never seen it on an application form.
    There are not gay "quotas" either....bizarre


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,131 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    This was in the UK, but I previously saw a job I would have liked and couldn't apply for because it said "LGBT only" in the job title. I'm assuming they are allowed to reserve a number of jobs for under-represented groups.
    I sincerely doubt this is true....it would likely be illegal


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Just curious why they ask my sexuality (I'm gay) so does that mean it works in my favour to declare that as I'd have a tiny edge as it'd help their pool of diversity in the company.

    They're allowed ask your sexuality, but the problem is they're not allowed discriminate based on your sexuality.

    So if you don't get the job? You could probably sue them and claim it's because you're gay.

    To answer your question though, I do suspect if they're asking this it's because they're idiots who think your sexuality and no doubt skin colour are important.

    I would stay away from companies like this as they're basically warning you they're idiots.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    I assume it's a public service role. I was asked on my last two applications the same thing. I assume they've to fill quotas judging by the amount of gay people they hired in the last round, roughly 50%.

    It's nice to see how progressive we've become, asking someone where they stick their genitals is obviously the best way to go, not experience or suitability to the role.

    I'm in the public service for the last 18 months-This is not a thing. You are spouting complete nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,620 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    That's didn't happen. You'll need to come up with a better excuse for not getting the job.

    ?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi867.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab239%2FNerdkiller%2Ffatherteddreamsreality2.gif&f=1&nofb=1

    I did get the job. I've also still got the applications in my email to prove it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭ByTheSea2019


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    What was the job for ?

    It was an analyst role in financial services.
    gmisk wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt this is true....it would likely be illegal

    I definitely saw it on a linkedin job ad. I assumed at the time they would be entitled to do it if they did it, but it seems like positive discrimination is illegal in the UK. It made me think, how many people would pursue something like that. They are going to have more jobs. Better off applying for another one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,772 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I think this thread has opened up great discussion. Learned a lot, but still confused. Great to have different experiences.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,177 ✭✭✭stargazer 68


    mike_cork wrote: »
    I'm in the public service for the last 18 months-This is not a thing. You are spouting complete nonsense.

    I'm almost 20 years in public service and I deal with HR forms, reference requests etc and this is definitely not on any of our documents!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko



    If you think all this information is not going to be accessed by others in some form of other that will identify you in your career or will not be used to actively discriminate in some way against someone then you are delusional.

    If you think that PAS are revealing details of optional questionnaires to employers, who are then using them to discriminate against employees, you are delusional. It would be all over the newspapers within days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    Just thinking about this a little more..we have established that some sectors in Ireland collate data from their employees regarding things like sexuality, religion etc.

    Apparently to monitor diversity levels and so on.

    So what use is this information? In other words if the workforce is not diverse enough, how do they propose changing it without hiring people based on discrimination?

    Are there employment laws in Ireland that allow for the sort of "positive discrimination" along of the lines of improving catholic hiring in the North?

    This is interesting stuff actually.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭ulster


    If it was me I would stop my application there. I wouldn't like to be profiled like that - feels like some American shyte that.

    Sexuality is a private affair. None of the business of an employer.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,941 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    JayRoc wrote: »
    Just thinking about this a little more..we have established that some sectors in Ireland collate data from their employees regarding things like sexuality, religion etc.

    Apparently to monitor diversity levels and so on.

    So what use is this information? In other words if the workforce is not diverse enough, how do they propose changing it without hiring people based on discrimination?

    Are there employment laws in Ireland that allow for the sort of "positive discrimination" along of the lines of improving catholic hiring in the North?

    This is interesting stuff actually.

    It's not just about positive discrimination.

    The first step would be to remove opportunities for unintentional bias, where people tend to recruit people that are like themselves. So things like removing name, gender, school name, dates of school /college exams from the details reviewed by decision makers would be a good step. Making sure that your electronic application form can be used by people with disabilities would be a good step.

    Training for interviewers to help them navigate through these sensitive issues would help.

    Retaining diverse staff is probably as big an issue as recruiting staff. If gay staff have to endure sniggers and gossip and puff jokes from the fifty-something CEO, then they're not going to hang around for too long.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hi,

    I've read most but not all comments since OP. I haven't come across any legal opinions on this and at least personally, I'd crave that.

    From a data protection / GDPR perspective:

    GDPR Article 9:

    "1. Processing of personal data revealing racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religious or philosophical beliefs, or trade union membership, and the processing of genetic data, biometric data for the purpose of uniquely identifying a natural person, data concerning health or data concerning a natural person's sex life or sexual orientation shall be prohibited".

    Processing means they cannot record it in any way. No file, no database, just no.

    It is by default prohibited for any organisation to process that information, with very few exceptions e.g. healthcare.

    With data protection however, there are a few cases where you can voluntarily give up sensitive information - and lose your rights in the process. This appears to be one.

    "2. Paragraph 1 shall not apply if one of the following applies:
    a) the data subject has given explicit consent to the processing of those personal data for one or more specified purposes, except where Union or Member State law provide that the prohibition referred to in paragraph 1 may not be lifted by the data subject;
    "

    and

    "e) processing relates to personal data which are manifestly made public by the data subject;"

    and, this one is cut short:

    "(32) Consent should be given by a clear affirmative act establishing a freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject's agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her, such as by a written statement, including by electronic means, or an oral statement. "...

    But there is huge onus on the employer to make it clear in plain English that this info. is OPTIONAL and your potential job offer is NOT CONTINGENT on whether you volunteer this information or not.

    I don't know anything from the HR perspective, if anyone knew the legal side of that I'd be curious.

    I am fairly convinced that the way it was laid out would raise serious GDPR concerns with the Data Protection Commission (data protection government regulator).

    This kind of "sensitive personal data" is given higher legal protection under GDPR than your bank details, credit and debit card.

    I've been in too many Irish workplaces where I've seen blatant discrimination in these areas and it f**ks me right off.


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