Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510519#Comment_118510519

No, I don't know who he is.

Do you believe that people should be allowed to make false claims about vaccines and be allowed to spread misinformation?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510562#Comment_118510562

I would have to believe that I was at a real risk from the disease. For the vast majority of (young and healthy) unvaccinated the disease comes and goes like the flu. I don’t believe we should be turning to drugs every time there is a minimal risk of something. No more than two years ago the vast majority didn’t take the flu virus.

With regard to contraction and transmission I believe the vast majority are going to to get the disease whether they are vaccinated or not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510583#Comment_118510583

Yes, I do.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510770#Comment_118510770

Why? What good can come from spreading lies and disinformation?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510770#Comment_118510770

Ok. So you believe that people should be free to spread lies and misinformation. At least you're upfront with that.

Should people not be allowed to point out that's what some people are doing? Should people who are lying and spreading falsehoods be coddled and agreed with?

Like for example should we not point out to you that the vaccine reduces the spread of the virus and reduces the chances of hospitalisation and death?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510779#Comment_118510779

People shouldn’t do it... But to say it should be « not allowed » i.e. illegal is insane. Should it be illegal to lie, illegal to bullshit ? There are better ways to arrive at the truth than to make « lies » (even if they are clearly lies) illegal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510794#Comment_118510794

No, of course you should point that out.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510853#Comment_118510853

Great. So why would you whinge about this being "shunning" and making you a "pariah"?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510877#Comment_118510877

I was referring mainly to public figures. There is a difference between « pointing something out » and piling on.

If an athlete feels they are going to be shunned or turned into a pariah because for sharing a negative experience they are going to self-censor and we are not going to learn about it. In 20th century Ireland you will be aware (or maybe not since you’ve never heard of Callum Robinson) that there was a lot of things - abuse etc. - covered up because people* didn’t feel they could speak out freely against authority.

* « whingers » in your mind presumably.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510956#Comment_118510956

Lol.

So because people point out that conspiracy theorists are wrong, lying and spreading misinformation, they are exactly like people being institutional abuse/

Sorry mate, that's a very silly argument.

ANd yes, people should self censor themselves from spreading misinformation. Cause doing so is wrong.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510978#Comment_118510978

In my original post two Swiss athletes got myocarditis having been recently vaccinated. One of them refused to publicly make the link between the vaccine and her myocarditis.

If you think this is a healthy situation for public discourse then we will have to agree to disagree.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510768#Comment_118510768

And what about that minority who do get severe covid? and long covid?

How many thousands of people would your strategy have sent to hospital? And ICU? And what would that have meant for hospital capacity to treat other conditions?

Hint: It's a lot more than the flu which is why every major government and health authority is treating this differently.

This virus with its different variants is both more severe and more transmissible than influenza.

The vaccine protects you, the health service and helps to protect more vulnerable members of society.

If you don't like the social opprobrium and restrictions that comes with not taking the vaccine, that's on you. But that's the basis for it.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511003#Comment_118511003

But how do you know that she was going to make that link?

How do you know that their myocarditis was actually caused by the vaccine?

Why bring it up when it's been shown that catching covid greatly increases this risk as well as the risk of a lot of other effects?

Why are you bringing up the extremely rare effect of myocarditis, while at the same time dismissing all of the deaths and other injuries caused by the virus.

You were saying a few posts ago that the death rate from covid is not worth worrying about. The rate of myocarditis from vaccines is orders of magnitude lower than that. So why worry about it?

Again, what's happening is that you are trying to spread misinformation and lies.

You should stop. It's not a very good thing to do.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118510768#Comment_118510768

You are at risk from the disease, young healthy people have died from it. Without the vaccine you are also at more risk from severe Covid. Especially considering you suspect everyone will get it, possibly multiple times.

Choosing not to vaccinate is making a conscious choice to increase the risk to yourself at no benefit. It's not a valid reason, it's the equivalent to saying that you don't wear a seatbelt because you are a safe driver and the risk is "minimal". It doesn't matter how minimal the risk is, it's still increasing it for no reason.

On top of that if you do catch the virus unvaccinated, you will carry the viral load for longer, increasing the risk of transmission to those around you.

Again, this decision by you seems to be motivated purely by self-interest with no care for others or being a burden on the health system if your Covid does get severe, and it doesn't make sense from a logical or risk perspective.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511142#Comment_118511142

Or it's because he's fallen for some misinformation about the vaccine and thinks there's some hidden danger he's not telling us about.

Which shows why people shouldn't spread misinformation.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511172#Comment_118511172

I suspect there are views behind this decision along the lines of "I don't like drugs".

I don't particularly like taking any drugs if I don't have to, but homeopathy and diluted water don't save millions of lives every year, medicine does. That includes vaccinations.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511203#Comment_118511203

I'm sure that his opposition will totally last if he catches covid.

It's not something to worry about, so surely he wouldn't take anything for it if he catches it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511023#Comment_118511023

Coronavirus play too high a place in your mind if you go around thinking like that. It’s each person’s business what they do (unless you’re one of those people who thinks the vaccine is still doing a great job at stopping the spread of the virus).

A lot of elderly people (70+) don’t take the flu vaccine. Should we all be hating on them ? Do you go around haranguing them all day long ?

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511566#Comment_118511566

So fcuk everyone else.

covid is a public health issue. The health of the nations population comes first, not you.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511566#Comment_118511566

The vast majority of elderly people do take the flu vaccine. Rate of vaccination in Ireland was generally around the 65-70% mark pre covid, with the UK reaching 75-80% most years.

The EU average would have been nearer 50%.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511566#Comment_118511566

Right, but your points aren't logical.

It's estimated up to 180,000 doctors, nurses and medical professionals have died around the world from Covid. It doesn't "only" kill old and frail people. It can be notoriously unpredictable.

It's very straightforward in terms of risk:

Unvaccinated - There's a risk you die from the virus

Vaccinated - You significantly reduce that risk

It's a no-brainer. I'm not trying to convince you to get vaccinated, but I am demonstrating you aren't offering any valid or logical reasons not to be vaccinated against it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511566#Comment_118511566

It's not the flu. As I explained previously, and which you have no come back to.

It's not each person's business what they do. Not when it comes to drink driving, or smoking or conduct in a pandemic.

The vaccines were shown to be effective at reducing spread of the virus for previous variants, it was the legitimate basis for vaccine passes. so it's relevant to this debate which in some cases references past incidents. Omicron has changed things somewhat but then the people who didn't get the vaccine were living in a Delta world, not an Omicron one.

Covid vaccines are far more effective than flu vaccines, and covid is a far more serious threat to health and medical services. So I would not harangue someone for not getting the flu vaccine (unless they were working in healthcare perhaps or living with someone immuno-compromised) - but if they went around saying the flu vaccine was dangerous or you are better off not getting it then yes I would challenge them for the basis of such claims.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511608#Comment_118511608

I guess Vaccine passes and banning the unvaccinated elderly from various forms of socialising then. To « encourage » the minority to do the right thing...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511663#Comment_118511663

Come off it, it’s gone way beyond just having a discussion where we both « challenge » each other. The restrictions on the unvaxxed (who have been unfortunate enough not to have caught Covid yet) are real and enforced by the law. In fact I’ll admit they are mild enough (but still unjust) in Ireland compared to other countries.

Your views on the vaccine « stopping the spread » are very 2021 (and they were very tenuous even back then).

I don’t see why you get to draw the line : flu = ok, Covid = we all must vaccinate. Loads of old folk die from the flu spreading each year. Why aren’t we all doing our bit to save them ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511003#Comment_118511003

In your mind, she isn't making that link because she's afraid to be ostracised for criticising the vaccines.

In reality, she may not be making that link because there is NO link and it may not be related at all. Occam's razor, and all that jazz.

In another post, you're berating others for covid having too high a place in their mind, because they shouldn't be thinking about the possibility of dying from Covid (~2%). Yet you are expressing fears over contracting myocarditis from the vaccine, which has a much, much, much lower chance of happening:

Of 3.5 million people who received BNT162b2, 48 developed myocarditis or myopericarditis within 28 days (54% male, 56% second dose), giving an incidence of 1.4 per 100 000 vaccinated individuals. (0.0014%) Source

You are more afraid of something happening that is literally over 1,000 times less likely to happen than the thing you're telling them occupies too high a place in their mind. If the same percentage of vaccines caused myocarditis as Covid does death, that 1.4 figure would jump up to 2,000.

Your fears are unfounded, irrational, and not based in reality.........and that stems from people spreading misinformation and lies, which you are a big fan of, for some reason. There is no logic to what you are saying. It doesn't stand up to the most basic of scrutiny.

Are you not embarrassed to think like this or ashamed that you've been duped and lied to?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511723#Comment_118511723

I am not afraid of catching myocarditis from the vaccine. The thread is on vaccine safety. The two example are significant in that they were recent and they were being discussed in the main-stream media (Switzerland’s version of Pravda / RTE). If I was either of those athletes I would regret having taken the vaccine (and resent even more people like you going « You should be grateful... it could have been 1000 times worse. »

Let everyone make their own decision - you don’t know somebody’s else’s body - rather than shoving the vaccine down their throats.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511788#Comment_118511788

"Let everyone make their own decision" - An unvaccinated person is more likely to spread the virus to someone else, so they are potentially impacting someone else's life, what about other people's rights?

You aren't being logical.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511884#Comment_118511884

Will you give up with the « spreading » angle. That debate is over. More or less everyone is going to get it (in fact I feel more sorry for those who haven’t got it yet) whether it spread at a very high rate through the vaccinated or at a very marginally slightly higher rate through us. And since there are so few of us we can’t affect things that much either way anyway.

If you want to « stop the spread » you need to be arguing for lockdown again at this stage.

You aren’t being logical.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511977#Comment_118511977

"More of less everyone is going to get it" - Right, that just bolsters the case for vaccines.

"And since there are so few of us we can't affect things that much either way anyway" - Because most of the population is getting vaccinated. Luckily for you the vast majority of people don't think like you.

"If you want to stop the spread you need to be arguing for lockdown again at this stage" - It's not about stopping the spread, it's about reducing it. Any reduction is good.

Again, if you don't want to get the vaccine, cool, but you aren't offering any valid reasons for not doing so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118511788#Comment_118511788

So you agree, then, that the vaccine is safer than catching the disease?