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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. Weird you're going back that far in the thread yet you are still ignoring dozens of questions.

    However patnors hypocritical and dishonest whinging is completely false.

    For example in that post be is complaining that he never said one thing. I then provided him a direct quote of where he said that thing. Since then her has essentially plugged his ears and will not respond to my posts.


    You are doing the same, yet you also thing this helps your position rather than make you look cowardly and dishonest.

    If you guys dot want to be misunderstood the best way to do this is not ignore points and questions. Don't be vague and make insinuations rather than direct and honest about your claims.and importantly try not to lie about things and then try to weasel out of those lies when caught out.


    For example both of you guys have claimed that the VAERS and EU data show the vaccine has caused many deaths. Both of you ignored and left out the disclaimers on those sites that warn that conclusions like yours cannot be made with that data. And you both have ignored when these disclaimers have been pointed out.

    Either



  • Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    I think you've demonstrated pretty clearly in your last several posts that you are either not capable, or not willing, to have a point by point discussion, where you either demonstrate where the other person is wrong, or you concede that you were wrong.

    I have shown you pretty clearly why the Pfizer vaccine reduced symptomatic Covid by 95% (that means that 95% of the people who would be expected to show Covid symptoms didn't show symptoms), with a similar reduction in cases of 'severe Covid'.

    After having all this explained to you, and with the links to the relevant report in my first response to you, you are still arguing about whether it's "Is it contracting virus? Becoming symptomatic?". Can you not understand what it means that 'Symptomatic Covid' was reduced by 95% in the vaccinated group, vs the placebo group? or that only 9 people got Covid symptoms in the vaccinated group, vs 162 in the placebo group? (btw, here is the link to the report again https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7745181/)

    You then deflect to an Israeli report on the effectiveness of the vaccine against the delta variant, which says ...

    Vaccine effectiveness in preventing both infection and symptomatic disease fell to 64% since June 6, 
    the Health Ministry said. At the same time the vaccine was 93% effective in preventing hospitalizations
    and serious illness from the coronavirus.
    

    How does that refute anything about the original Pfizer trial, and doesn't it demonstrate continued 93% effectiveness against delta?

    Oh forgot to cater for "Link?" people who cant figure out how google works.

    Also, what you you mean by "people who can't figure out how google works"? Would you prefer those who make unsubstantiated statements should go unchallenged, and be allowed to dump any nonsense and just say 'google it' and run away?

    I am in no rush since current vaccines only marginally improve chance of reducing severity of a generally very mild disease.

    The quote on the prev line is the post from you that I originally responded to, and it was followed by a dump of information from a Lancet report that you completely misinterpreted (or perhaps you were simply repeating a misinterpretation you read on some other website spreading misinformation)

    I would challenge you to either substantiate your views, or else refrain from spreading unsubstantiated misinformation. Also, if you attempt to substantiate your information have the good grace to admit you are wrong when it's explained to you, multiple times, in clear terms, where you are wrong!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    You seems to be somehow fixated on pfizer trial. It is only one of the few vaccines currently used. I suggest that you open your eyes and see that what is happening now is actually very different than initial trial data. And on a way to become even more different as vaccines are just a mutation or two away from becoming obsolete.

    Besides with so many cases reported all the while real numbers were few times higher we are very close to herd immunity if not already there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again claims with no source or backing from a conspiracy theorist who has been caught out in dozens of lies and is constantly dishonest and evasive.

    This post is yet another deflection because you don't want to concede a point despite Pintofview directly and comprehensively debunking your previous false claims.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    Minnesota woman has both her legs AMPUTATED after contracting COVID-19 days after receiving vaccine | Daily Mail Online


    what do you guys think? is this aside effect of the vaccine or is it just coincidence?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,399 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Some people will have an adverse reaction to vaccines, people have died from polio, Measles, rubella, mumps and even flu vaccines. So yes...its a sad coincidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,525 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Well, the vaccine does not offer full protection from COVID, untill at least two weeks after second dose, so contracting COVID "days after" the second dose does not contradict anything the Goverment/Medical experts/vaccine manufacturer state. And given it can take up to two weeks to get COVID after infection, she most likley had been infected BEFORE the second dose.

    Blood clots is one of the side effects of the COVID disease and the vaccine, but more common with the disease. One might make the case to do a COVID test as one is getting vaccinated, but that would slow down the whole vaccination processs, and this might do more harm than good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    The Daily Mail is a sensationalist rag.

    What they don't say is what GerardKeating just explained.

    What do you think?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    first off i commend the daily mail on telling the woman's story. you can be sure there are many more cases around the world that have not been shared through mainstream media. which i find truely disturbing.

    I don't fully agree with GerarKeatings post above, many people are defending the vaccine process irrespective of the consequences for people such as the woman in said article. the exact cause of the womans condition is inconclusive but its clear the vaccine played a detrimental role.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob




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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,434 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    How is it clear?

    "Medical experts are unsure whether the vaccine caused her complications"



  • Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    You have shown yet again that you are not capable of a point by point discussion, so I'm not going to spend any more time flogging this dead horse



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Unfortunately COVID causes serious systemic clotting issues and very dramatic and deadly problems in some people, which is far more likely to explain her unfortunate situation.

    That’s why we’re vaccinating and that’s why we’re taking so much precaution. It’s a horrible illness when it goes very badly wrong for some people and it has killed & maimed.

    The vaccine would have little or no effect for about 14 days, in terms of providing some immunity and 7 to 14 days after the second dose of two dose vaccines for full effect. They’ve also been given to hundreds of millions of people and they are being monitored with reporting of effects.

    This isn’t a normal case.

    The other issue is that some people just have bad run ins with septicaemia and so on in the oddest circumstances. I’m aware of a case of someone who got a minor cut while gardening, developed septicaemia and lost a limb.

    People can get freaky reactions to viruses, bacteria, minor infections and even food, to cosmetics, plants, etc

    Horrible and weird things like that happen in exceedingly rare circumstances.

    If you were to freak out about them, you’d never do anything again.

    I mean the reality is you could be cutting your toe nails and acquire some horrible dose of a bacterial infection. It’s extremely unlikely, but when you take a population of 7.9 billion people, many of whom are on or are in reach of social media or tabloids, you’ll find a case!

    I mean people probably died in the last few days having choked on spaghetti or having terrible reactions to minor allergens, but life goes on and we don’t have people protesting, demanding a ban on spaghetti.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Remember also thaat conspiracy theorists have been telling us that the 4.2 million people killed by covid (and who know how many permanently injured) isn't anything to be concerned about.

    But *one* case where the vaccine *Might* be involved? Obviously it's apocalyptic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Exactly, so many scary things can happen and are happening around us daily one would have to wonder why there is so much fuss about a some mediocre infection with over 99% survival rate...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If you’re talking about COVID, which you’re saying has a 99% survival rate, you’d want to consider that means. Also it has an estimated 6.44% fatality rate in Ireland of those infected, in pre vaccine (and higher internationally).

    Of course the level of vulnerability goes up with age and with some underlying health issues, but it’s still a rather huge impact.

    The reason we kept the death toll lower is because we took measures to prevent spread and the huge vaccine uptake should have a very significant impact on it too. We didn’t ever let the virus do it’s worst and run through a population. We flattened peaks and managed it.

    It’s like saying that being killed by electric shock is a very rare event, therefore electricity is completely safe to handle and completely ignoring the century of innovation on electrical safety devices and designs that make it safe to interact with.

    It’s a highly infectious virus, capable of infecting the entire population, and at the speed the delta variant is moving, almost simultaneously, if no measures we taken.

    If it were population wide at 1% fatality that’s still around 49,000 deaths. Small % across a population is a big number of people.

    Then, if you get into a situation like what happened at any of the peaks in the U.K., in Italy, in France, multiple US states etc, you end up with clogged ICUs, overflowing hospitals, the death rate rises because the services can’t cope and you’ve knock on consequences by basically having exhausted all the capacity of the health system with one highly contagious illness.

    Humans don’t like scary realities. It’s far easier to bury your head in the sand and pretend the unpleasant scenario isn’t real or that it’s all some conspiracy.

    The rest of us (90%+ in Ireland) will solve the problem, with hard work, taking sensible precautions and using advanced technology like the vaccines to enable us to, eventually, get back to normality again, having beaten it.

    I’d rather put my faith in human ingenuity than just resigning myself to a fatalistic world view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    You've been asked repeatedly what the real reason it. You refuse to give a straight answer either because you don't have one or your answer is a ridicilous conspiracy theory.


    Again, you've been caught out in lie after lie. You are running away from every point and you're going to start cowering away from Convolved's points now as well as they are too difficult for you to address honestly.


    So no, we don't have to wonder. We know that you are just wrong when you're claiming it's not worth all the fuss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,762 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It's your subjective personal opinion that an avoidable infectious disease which has killed 4 million people in 15 months is just a "minor thing". Every single country in the world has decided to take it seriously.

    So either you have a stupid uninformed opinion, or every government in the world does.



  • Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    What makes you willing to sacrifice 49,000 Irish people so casually (possibly higher, but let's use your estimate)? Have you any concern at all for those that would die if we followed your advice?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,762 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    MostAll people I know were concerned about their parents or elderly relatives but according to basically every Covid denier and conspiracy theorist on this forum, "It's just some old people that were going to die anyway"

    Edit: and as if to underscore this notion, came across the following article

    https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2021/07/30/what-psychology-says-about-covid-non-compliers.html



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And yet if even one old person dies because of the vaccine...



  • Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    There are many people in their 50's, 60's and 70's who have had cancer, but are free of it for several years, and are now enjoying a good quality of life. These are just some of the people covid deniers appear to be happy to just let die, along with many other vulnerable people that are living with medical conditions but are able to lead happy and productive lives thanks to modern medicine.

    The web sites that the covid deniers get their 'information' from would be amusing if it wasn't so shocking that a percentage of gullible people actually believe them. As the article you linked to says ...

    Non-compliers appear not to use official sources for COVID-19 information, nor do they tend to verify the legitimacy of information

    That's one of the key problems, that they don't verify the legitimacy of what they read, or think for themselves. So they're at the mercy of people who have misinterpreted reality, or people who are deliberately distorting or sensationalising reality to get clicks and subscriptions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,434 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Well then. The whole "Not FDA approved" arguement in the bin. What will the loons do now?

    FDA aiming to give final approval to Pfizer vaccine by early next month -NY Times

    https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-aiming-give-final-approval-pfizer-vaccine-by-early-next-month-ny-times-2021-08-03/



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,456 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I think the next step is a "forensic" approval carried out by some sort of ninja squad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,434 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Interesting to see if the "but but its an experimental vaccine not approved by the FDA" lot will take it now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Well now the FDA is part of the conspiracy.

    Previously the vaccines couldn't get FDA approve because... um... reasons?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,456 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Youtube will be removing any vaccine misinformation videos:

    YouTube to remove misinformation videos about all vaccines (breakingnews.ie)

    Good to see this being stamped out following reddit's policy to remove it as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,399 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,762 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    United Airlines requires staff to be vaccinated or face being fired. Out of 67,000 staff, around 600 are refusing. People are literally going to lose their jobs because of their beliefs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Dr. Greenthumb


    People can get exemptions as well because of their beliefs, United are not letting those people go. One set of beliefs are fine (religious) others are not (body autonomy). The second being more relevant in my opinion. The fact that they are going to fire people that have a concern over the vaccine but keep on people that can't take it due to a belief in an imaginary being is a bit ridiculous, no?



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