Display of discs in car windscreen.....

Bikerman2019

Background. A car insurance policy covers a person to drive their own car with comprehensive cover. Broker says the driver is insured to drive any other car as long as it is not owned by this driver. "The second car does not need to be insured." This seems to be confirmed by the policy booklet.



H. Driving of other cars included
No. 1 “Indemnity to the Insured” of Section 1: “Liability to Third Parties” is extended to include indemnity to the Insured while personally driving any private motor car provided such vehicle:(i) Does not belong to the Insured.(ii) Is not hired or leased to the Insured under a Hire Purchase or Leasing Agreement.(iii) Is not the property of or in the custody of any Company or Firm of which the Insured is a Member, Director or Employee.(iv) Is not the property of or in the custody or control of a Motor Trade Business of which the Insured is a Member, Director or Employee

So question is, second car was a gift for a daughter for her birthday and is registered in her name with valid NCT and Tax, but not on road yet as her theory test is pending along with subsequent licence. (Subject of another thread here, venues to learn to drive while no licence due to theory test cancelled 5 times)

Is it permitted to photocopy the insurance disk and put it in the window of the second car as it is getting damaged taking it out and putting it in again whenever second car is taken out?


Cheers

ELM327

You can't display a disc with a different reg number in the window. That is illegal.

If driving on third party extension it is advisable that you carry the full insurance document with you.

coylemj

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Broker says the driver is insured to drive any other car as long as it is not owned by this driver. "The second car does not need to be insured." This seems to be confirmed by the policy booklet.

As long as your policy is not from Aviva or Liberty, that is correct.

There still is an urban myth (it gets repeated here and in the Insurance forum) which holds that the car you borrow must always have it's own policy before your own 'driving other cars' cover applies. And there have been reported instances of Gardai at checkpoints who think that it's a universal rule. It's not.

No disc on the windsceeen is taken to mean that there is no policy in force for that car, therefore (they think) nobody can be insured to drive it. So always carry your own cert. and be prepared to (politely) slug it out on the roadside.

Get Real

coylemj wrote: »

As long as your policy is not from Aviva or Liberty, that is correct.

There still is an urban myth (it gets repeated here and in the Insurance forum) which holds that the car you borrow must always have it's own policy before your own 'driving other cars' cover applies. And there have been reported instances of Gardai at checkpoints who think that it's a universal rule. It's not.

No disc on the windsceeen is taken to mean that there is no policy in force for that car, therefore (they think) nobody can be insured to drive it. So always carry your own cert. and be prepared to (politely) slug it out on the roadside.

How does this work if failing to display an insurance disk is an offence in its own right?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/driving_offences.html#:~:text=Failure%20to%20display%20an%20insurance,for%20up%20to%206%20months.

Genuinely curious. Even if you are insured, it's an offence not to display an insurance disk, 60 euro fine. Interesting.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

No disc on the windsceeen is taken to mean that there is no policy in force for that car, therefore (they think) nobody can be insured to drive it. So always carry your own cert. and be prepared to (politely) slug it out on the roadside.

Non Display of an Insurance Disc apparently carries a fixed charge of €60 (rising to €90 after 28 days) - it's not a penalty point offence though.

cml387

So you are using your insurance with her as named driver on a second car which she owns?
Not too sure about that.

coylemj

Get Real wrote: »

How does this work if failing to display an insurance disk is an offence in its own right?

.....

Genuinely curious. Even if you are insured, it's an offence not to display an insurance disk, 60 euro fine. Interesting.

There appears to be a 'grace period' of 10 days after you take out the policy (see below) but it probably wouldn't apply here as the OP hasn't mentioned any policy on the car in question.....

5. (1) When a vehicle is used in a public place the insurance disc for the vehicle shall be carried on the vehicle at all times after the expiry of 10 days from the date of authentication of the certificate of insurance.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/355/made/en/print

Atlantic Dawn

Is it an offence to display an insurance disc from a car with a different registration number? Surely it's the policy number and insurance certificate that show the actual coverage of the policy and the policy number is displayed for anyone to record or question.

ELM327

Get Real wrote: »

How does this work if failing to display an insurance disk is an offence in its own right?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/driving_offences.html#:~:text=Failure%20to%20display%20an%20insurance,for%20up%20to%206%20months.

Genuinely curious. Even if you are insured, it's an offence not to display an insurance disk, 60 euro fine. Interesting.

That is also an offence and you can be penalized for it.

jimmycrackcorm

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Is it permitted to photocopy the insurance disk and put it in the window of the second car as it is getting damaged taking it out and putting it in again whenever second car is taken out?


Cheers

This is specifically prohibited in the statute.

not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle

cml387

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

This is specifically prohibited in the statute.

not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle

I think the bigger problem, if I understand the OP correctly, is that his daughter is driving an uninsured car.

Atlantic Dawn

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

This is specifically prohibited in the statute.

not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle

It's an interesting one, this would imply that any discs a user prints out themselves are not legit in the full legal sense as no 'original disc' could be defined or proven. A lot of insurers now only send a PDF copy of disc and expect policyholder to print out.

coylemj

My view would be that as long as you can convince a Garda at a checkpoint that you are insured to drive that car, in most cases you won't get any hassle about the disc.

But you definitely do not want to park the car on a public street because you risk getting a ticket for non-display.

ELM327

cml387 wrote: »

I think the bigger problem, if I understand the OP correctly, is that his daughter is driving an uninsured car.

His daughter is not driving anything.
He is driving the car with his third party extension until she gets a license and insurance in her own name was my reading

coylemj

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's an interesting one, this would imply that any discs a user prints out themselves are not legit in the full legal sense as no 'original disc' could be defined or proven. A lot of insurers now only send a PDF copy of disc and expect policyholder to print out.

That may be why Axa only allow you to download the disc PDF file once. That way they (and I) can claim that when I print it off at home, it's an 'original'.

cml387

ELM327 wrote: »

His daughter is not driving anything.
He is driving the car with his third party extension until she gets a license and insurance in her own name was my reading

Ah OK.

ELM327

Sure that's rubbish, you can forward the email, print screenshots etc.

cml387

coylemj wrote: »

That may be why Axa only allow you to download the disc PDF file once. That way they (and I) can claim that when I print it off at home, it's an 'original'.

I would guess it's more likely to gouge you for the cost of a replacement.
123 just sent me a PDF which I could print off as much as I like. On a colour printer though. So I used the work one. Ahem.

partyguinness

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is it an offence to display an insurance disc from a car with a different registration number? Surely it's the policy number and insurance certificate that show the actual coverage of the policy and the policy number is displayed for anyone to record or question.

But why would you want to do that expect maybe to give a false impression that the car is insured at a quick glance?

MacDanger

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

This is specifically prohibited in the statute.

not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle

Would a black & white copy of the insurance disc be okay?

partyguinness

In England 5-6 years ago, they did away with displaying tax cert on windscreen. Never had to disply insurance cert.

ELM327

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is it an offence to display an insurance disc from a car with a different registration number? Surely it's the policy number and insurance certificate that show the actual coverage of the policy and the policy number is displayed for anyone to record or question.

Yes

cml387

MacDanger wrote: »

Would a black & white copy of the insurance disc be okay?

No, it needs to be in colour. Well, green.

Claw Hammer

partyguinness wrote: »

In England 5-6 years ago, they did away with displaying tax cert on windscreen. Never had to disply insurance cert.

This is not England. We left the UK in 1922.

jimmycrackcorm

MacDanger wrote:

Would a black & white copy of the insurance disc be okay?

It's still colourable. But the green band is a requirement

partyguinness

Claw Hammer wrote: »

This is not England. We left the UK in 1922.

Yes I know thank you. I just making a general observation. Not fully left...

Claw Hammer

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes I know thank you. I just making a general observation. Not fully left...

Just because they do or don't do something doesn't mean it happens here or has any relevance whatsoever in this jurisdiction.

3DataModem

To summarise for the OP in case it isn't clear:

- There is no reason to copy the disc. Or put your disc in your daughters car. Both of these things might put off a casual glance, but are both offences in their own right. Non-display of disc is also an offence, but arguably a lesser offence (depending on whether a guard wants to do you for if he realises you are using a "fraudulent" disc in your daughter's car).

- Check your policy carefully. Some insurers require the "other car" to be insured, some require it to not be owned by a member of your household, some require it to not be owned by a member of your family.

- Bring proof of YOUR insurance and proof of YOUR DAUGHTERS ownership of the car with you when driving her car, most guards will be grand with that.

Turbohymac

Regardless of type of disc ..be it tax.insurance. or nct a photocopy certainly wouldn't be legal on any windscreen..possibly carry insurance policy with you that stipulate you are indeed insured to drive any other car with the owners consent..
Also it would possibly be only third party cover..

square ball

The insurance certificate should be sufficient as proof of insurance when driving the car. Leave that on the dash. I know it says disc is required but the disc only gives the policy number and expiry date for the vehicle.

I can't see how you can get a fine for not displaying a disc if you are displaying a certificate which is a more comprehensive document. The statute really needs to be amended, but I'd imagine it will all be done electronically before long.

partyguinness

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Just because they do or don't do something doesn't mean it happens here or has any relevance whatsoever in this jurisdiction.

Sticking pieces of paper to the inside of your car is a bit primative in this day and age. It's only a matter of time before it is done in Ireland anyway.


As I said it is just a general observation. Harmless enough. Don't get too hung up on it.

Claw Hammer

partyguinness wrote: »

Sticking pieces of paper to the inside of your car is a bit primative in this day and age. It's only a matter of time before it is done in Ireland anyway.


As I said it is just a general observation. Harmless enough. Don't get too hung up on it.

There is no need to comment on what is done in England as if everything done in England is so much better. England justified conquering and robbing half the world on the basis that they were converting savages. Obviously that attitude still persists.

Im melting away

You can get a FCN for non display of insurance disc, think it's 80quid, you can appeal and will win, if you hold a policy that allows you to drive other cars.

Claw Hammer

It is arguable that if the insurance disc displayed has the reg of another car but covers the driving of the car in which it is displayed that no offence is being committed.
IMO it would be better to have a disc on display which covers the driving than no disc at all.
The driver should carry the associated insurance cert in the car and should not leave it parked in a public place.

Bikerman2019

Hey folks. I am the OP.


To clarify as a couple of people picked me up wrong. I am legally driving her car, she hasnt got a licence yet. The car has no disc, but my Zurich policy covers me to drive her car even though it is not insured yet in its own right. Her theory test is early may, (unless it's cancelled for the 6th time), once done, she gets a permit, then boxymo insurance is waiting at 1700 euro.



My question pertains to legality of me taking her car out (legally), but not having an insurance disc in the window, and if it would be permitted to copy my valid disc and put it in the window for when I am driving it.


So it appears, so far, it is illegal to have a another cars VALID disc in the window, but also illegal to not have a disc in the window.


I think I will just photocopy my licence,policy cert, and daughters log book, and keep them in the car. Just in case I take it out and get stopped.

Hurrache

You said you're with Zurich? Although their driving other cars extension doesn't require the other car to be insured, they do iterate that it's not for regular usage and if they believe it has been used for such it could impact on your cover or any claims you may make.

Bikerman2019

Hurrache wrote: »

You said you're with Zurich? Although their driving other cars extension doesn't require the other car to be insured, they do iterate that it's not for regular usage and if they believe it has been used for such it could impact on your cover or any claims you may make.

Good to know, thanks. I have my own car and policy. I am also named on the family car. This is a third car in the house, and I intend to take it out just to keep it running ok. Hopefully her theory test will go well and she will be mobile soon. Boxymo is 1700 but policy cannot be taken out until she gets the learner permit. She has had awfully bad luck due to cancellations over the lockdown.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is arguable that if the insurance disc displayed has the reg of another car but covers the driving of the car in which it is displayed that no offence is being committed.

The disc alone doesn't cover anybody to drive, it's simply visual evidence that there is a policy in force for the car with that reg. So if you drive car B with the disc from car A on the windscreen, it has no value whatsover and proves nothing.

And it's not 'arguable', it's illegal .....

6. No person shall, either by writing, drawing or in any other matter alter, deface, mutilate or add anything to any insurance disc for any vehicle, nor shall any person exhibit upon any vehicle any insurance disc which has been altered, defaced, mutilated or added to as aforesaid, or upon which the figures or particulars have become illegible or the colour has become altered by fading or otherwise, not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle .....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/355/made/en/print

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

A disc doesn't cover anybody to drive, it's simply visual evidence that there is a policy in force for the car with that reg. So if you drive car B with the disc from car A on the windscreen, it has no value whatsover and proves nothing.

And it's illegal .....

6. No person shall, either by writing, drawing or in any other matter alter, deface, mutilate or add anything to any insurance disc for any vehicle, nor shall any person exhibit upon any vehicle any insurance disc which has been altered, defaced, mutilated or added to as aforesaid, or upon which the figures or particulars have become illegible or the colour has become altered by fading or otherwise, not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle .....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/355/made/en/print

It is arguable that an insurance disc for an open drive vehicle covers the driving of every car of the class insured and can thus can't be construed as an insurance disc ofor another vehicle.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is arguable that an insurance disc for an open drive vehicle covers the driving of every car of the class insured ....

Open driving allows other people to drive that car, it does not permit the owner to bring the disc to another car.

But as you're clearly referring to 'driving other cars', there is nothing on the disc to show who is covered so putting it up on the windscreen of a borrowed car achieves nothing and the cops will rightly give you an earful if you're caught.

GM228

Im melting away wrote: »

You can get a FCN for non display of insurance disc, think it's 80quid, you can appeal and will win, if you hold a policy that allows you to drive other cars.

Don't be so certain of that.

You can be prosecuted for not displaying an insurance disc (after 10 days of the policy coming into force), even if you later show you were fully insured to drive the vehicle.

Has happened several times and there was a very recent attempt (unsuccessful) at judicial review on this very point three months ago.

jimmycrackcorm

Bikerman2019 wrote:

I think I will just photocopy my licence,policy cert, and daughters log book, and keep them in the car. Just in case I take it out and get stopped.

I like a gambling man. Who needs originals when photocopies suffice.

Your going to add a fine for not having a license with you on top of no insurance disc and still be required to produce.

Marcusm

MacDanger wrote: »

Would a black & white copy of the insurance disc be okay?

“Colourable” in this context has nothing to do with colour per se but refers to something which could be perceived to be the genuine article when it isn’t. A copy of an insurance cert is not a genuine very but might be perceived to be one.

rock22

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Good to know, thanks. I have my own car and policy. I am also named on the family car. This is a third car in the house, and I intend to take it out just to keep it running ok. Hopefully her theory test will go well and she will be mobile soon. Boxymo is 1700 but policy cannot be taken out until she gets the learner permit. She has had awfully bad luck due to cancellations over the lockdown.

Surely your policy excludes a car owned by another family member?

Bikerman2019

rock22 wrote: »

Surely your policy excludes a car owned by another family member?

Not according to the broker and the policy booklet.


H. Driving of other cars included
No. 1 “Indemnity to the Insured” of Section 1: “Liability to Third Parties” is extended to include indemnity to the Insured while personally driving any private motor car provided such vehicle:(i) Does not belong to the Insured.(ii) Is not hired or leased to the Insured under a Hire Purchase or Leasing Agreement.(iii) Is not the property of or in the custody of any Company or Firm of which the Insured is a Member, Director or Employee.(iv) Is not the property of or in the custody or control of a Motor Trade Business of which the Insured is a Member, Director or Employee


I gather from this thread that I cannot copy the disk and put it in the window. If I take the car out, just to keep it running smooth and battery charged, I need to have all original documents in the car in case I am stopped. Not having an insurance disc in the window will attract the gardai, but having a copy in the window is illegal. Maybe just take it out once a week until my daughter gets legal.

Caranica

Can you not just take it on very short runs, stay very local, maybe even on your own property depending on where you live?

Bikerman2019

Caranica wrote: »

Can you not just take it on very short runs, stay very local, maybe even on your own property depending on where you live?

Yep, short runs intended.

Peregrinus

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

. . . Not having an insurance disc in the window will attract the gardai, but having a copy in the window is illegal. Maybe just take it out once a week until my daughter gets legal.

Both options are illegal. The insurance company can insure you to drive a car for which there is no insurance disc to display, but it cannot make driving a car without displaying an appropriate insurance disc legal.

Either way, carry all the relevant insurance documentation with you. You'll be reliant on the forbearance and good sense of the guards not to prosecute; this is a better bet if you display no disc and explain why than if you transfer a disc or photocopy a disc, which might be interpreted as an attempt to mislead. Obviously, don't do anything else to piss off the guards, like speeding, driving carelessly or venting about how silly the law is.

sham58107

To OP
I have been driving a loan car from Garage for 2 months ( waiting for new car) no disc as fleet policy and insurer would not issue temp. disc , was stopped a few times during lockdown and had copy of insurance policy although I never was asked for this , as one guard said their handheld device pick up everything these days.
So just have copy of your insurance cert with you ( do not make copy of disc) if car is properly insured you wont have any problems, BTW you always have to carry DL with you.

ELM327

sham58107 wrote: »

To OP
I have been driving a loan car from Garage for 2 months ( waiting for new car) no disc as fleet policy and insurer would not issue temp. disc , was stopped a few times during lockdown and had copy of insurance policy although I never was asked for this , as one guard said their handheld device pick up everything these days.
So just have copy of your insurance cert with you ( do not make copy of disc) if car is properly insured you wont have any problems, BTW you always have to carry DL with you.

This is false as they don't have a data source for insurance. They use the motor tax website but on private cars this is unchecked

Im melting away

GM228 wrote: »

Don't be so certain of that.

You can be prosecuted for not displaying an insurance disc (after 10 days of the policy coming into force), even if you later show you were fully insured to drive the vehicle.

Has happened several times and there was a very recent attempt (unsuccessful) at judicial review on this very point three months ago.

What's this than?

https://www.garda.ie/en/roads-policing/fixed-charge-notices/cancelling-fixed-charge-notices.html

In relation to an FCN for non-display of motor tax or insurance disc, motor tax had been taken out or applied for, or in the case of the non display of an insurance disc motor insurance was in place, at the time of the alleged offence.