Surrogacy

First Up

LeakyLime wrote:

The women in Ukraine are not concerned with the joy they bring to others, they do it solely for the money. This is evident if you read anything on the subject.

Of course they do it for the money but from what I have seen and heard, they also get satisfaction from the outcome.

It is also understandable that the system is designed to be "transactional" and not emotional. People acting as surrogates for friends is opening a lot of potential doors that might be better left shut.

Antares35

Antares35 wrote: »

The only way to ensure the system isn't abused is, IMO, to de-monetise it. Commodifying children is wrong. And where there is money involved, there will be an inherent power imbalance irrespective of good or stated intentions or positions.
.

I think that would be a good idea. Take out the money aspect. Make it illegal to buy babies or fund any healthcare that will conspire to facilitate it. Cover the loopholes. Let's see then how many impoverished women are jumping up and down to bring this value neutral joy to others.

LeakyLime

First Up wrote: »

It is also understandable that the system is designed to be "transactional" and not emotional. People acting as surrogates for friends is opening a lot of potential doors that might be better left shut.

This is what they used to say about adoption.

LeakyLime

Antares35 wrote: »

Something that never sat well with me tbh. I thought I was the only one..it's so often presented in a light that suggests there is nothing to be questioned. I was really surprised to find out there are others who feel the same way.

Commercial/transactional surrogacy is illegal in all EU states so you are certainly not in a minority in the EU well when it comes to 'our women/ women like us'.

So is it a case that it is OK for poor women in disadvantaged countries to be paid to carry a child but it's not OK for European women?

First Up - do you want it legalised across all EU countries? You haven't dealt with that questions - I've posed it previously.

LeakyLime

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that would be a good idea. Take out the money aspect. Make it illegal to buy babies or fund any healthcare that will conspire to facilitate it. Cover the loopholes. Let's see then how many impoverished women are jumping up and down to bring this value neutral joy to others.

The only way to regulate surrogacy to prevent exploitation is to de-monetise it as far as I can see.

Although I note some countries in the EU have even outlawed non-commercial surrogacy.

Jequ0n

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you use this kind of logic when it comes to making FGM illegal? Or child abuse images? Or any damn thing, frankly..

As for people being emotional about babies or children or indeed any species being emotional about their immature progeny you are going to have to ticket 100s of 1000s of years of beneficial evolution for that.

And that’s why you don’t have a mob or the victims family decide a verdict but a judge and jury...get it now?

As to your unrelated comparisons: do you think that banning/ prohibiting has solved the problem? Or maybe you can sleep better at night knowing that you spoke out against outrageous human behaviours online because this really made a difference?

Jequ0n

LeakyLime wrote: »

So commercial surrogacy should be legalised in Ireland?

That’s not what I said. I said it is pointless to expect things to change just because you ban them.

You don’t need to go abroad to get someone to agree to surrogacies. Money works the same everywhere

Jequ0n

Jequ0n wrote: »

And that’s why you don’t have a mob or the victims family decide a verdict but a judge and jury...get it now?

As to your unrelated comparisons: do you think that banning/ prohibiting has solved the problem? Or maybe you can sleep better at night knowing that you spoke out against outrageous human behaviours online because this really made a difference?

Well actually discussing things openly can help consolidate people's thinking processes. Some people forget to really think about things, surprisingly. Then the next time there is an article on the RTE website gushing over a newborn coming in from a surrogate abroad or in Hello! magazine lauding the celebrities with their newborn child via surrogate, maybe some people who have read this might realise there is considerable cognitive dissonance involved in such acclaim. Every little helps.

volchitsa

First Up wrote: »

Of course they do it for the money but from what I have seen and heard, they also get satisfaction from the outcome.

If your friend or your sister announced she was gestating a baby for someone else for financial reasons, you wouldn't be deeply concerned about the effect on her, or her children, or her relationship with her partner?

What on earth do you think she would get out of it that would be worth taking those sorts of risks?

First Up wrote: »

It is also understandable that the system is designed to be "transactional" and not emotional. People acting as surrogates for friends is opening a lot of potential doors that might be better left shut.

I don't think the fact of doing it for money negates all those aspects, except for the fact of cutting all contact with the birth parent afterwards. And I'm not sure that's in the child's best interests, though I can see why the adopting parents might fel happier about it.

First Up

LeakyLime wrote:

First Up - do you want it legalised across all EU countries? You haven't dealt with that questions - I've posed it previously.

I don't have strong views either way.

First Up

LeakyLime wrote:

This is what they used to say about adoption.

And still do.

Jequ0n

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well actually discussing things openly can help consolidate people's thinking processes. Some people forget to really think about things, surprisingly. Then the next time there is an article on the RTE website gushing over a newborn coming in from a surrogate abroad or in Hello! magazine lauding the celebrities with their newborn child via surrogate, maybe some people who have read this might realise there is considerable cognitive dissonance involved in such acclaim. Every little helps.

Fair point about discussing it though I feel other opinions are not even considered and devalued immediately (I don’t mean you specifically)
And with regards to celebraties etc: that refers to my point above. Money does get you everything, different rules if you can afford it

Antares35

LeakyLime wrote: »

Commercial/transactional surrogacy is illegal in all EU states so you are certainly not in a minority in the EU well when it comes to 'our women/ women like us'.

So is it a case that it is OK for poor women in disadvantaged countries to be paid to carry a child but it's not OK for European women?

First Up - do you want it legalised across all EU countries? You haven't dealt with that questions - I've posed it previously.

Did you mean to reply to my post?

LeakyLime

Jequ0n wrote: »

That’s not what I said. I said it is pointless to expect things to change just because you ban them.

You don’t need to go abroad to get someone to agree to surrogacies. Money works the same everywhere

Therefore, should it not be legalised in the EU? Plenty of poor European women too.

Why is it illegal here if it is not problematic?

LeakyLime

First Up wrote: »

And still do.

Do they? The voices and opinion of adopted children have changed this perception of the last few decades.

There are now other options than the purely transactional adoption.

First Up

volchitsa wrote:

If your friend or your sister announced she was gestating a baby for someone else for financial reasons, you wouldn't be deeply concerned about the effect on her, or her children, or her relationship with her partner?

Too hypothetical a question to answer. I certainly wouldn't be sticking my nose in unless invited.

People are responsible for their own decisions and consequences arising.

LeakyLime

Antares35 wrote: »

Did you mean to reply to my post?

Sorry my post was unclear.

I was saying you are not in the minority with your thoughts on surrogacy (thoughts I am in agreement with).

And the fact it is illegal across all European states would support the fact we are not in the minority as most lawmakers agree.

Jequ0n

LeakyLime wrote: »

Therefore, should it not be legalised in the EU? Plenty of poor European women too.

Why is it illegal here if it is not problematic?

The same argument was used by people defending the abortion laws before the referendum.

I couldn’t care less if it’s banned or legalised because it doesn’t affect me. If, in a parallel universe, it did affect me somehow I’d bypass the ban and would use alternative methods because they will always exist. Depends if you want the trade to be at least partially regulated or totally unregulated I guess.

volchitsa

First Up wrote: »

Too hypothetical a question to answer. I certainly wouldn't be sticking my nose in unless invited.

People are responsible for their own decisions and consequences arising.

But you're the one who assumed that poor women who do it get satisfaction other than "just" the money. So why not middle class women? Wouldn't they get the same satisfaction? And why is it ok for you to assume stuff about poor women abroad about whom you know nothing, but not about someone you know personally?

volchitsa

Jequ0n wrote: »

The same argument was used by people defending the abortion laws before the referendum.

Not exactly, though you are right that some of the issues do apply.

The problem with that argument as put forward by anti choicers was that only Ireland had kept abortion illegal, whereas here the argument is that nearly all wealthy countries have made it illegal because it is seen as exploitative of the surrogate, and that it is only poor countries have not made it illegal, thus facilitating the exploitation of even poorer women over there.

An analogy would be if abortion was illegal everywhere in the EU but was legal as long as you paid for it in poor countries like India or Thailand.

IMO that would be a very good argument for either legalising it in the EU or banning it everywhere. Either it's acceptable or it's not, and the poverty of the country should not determine that.

Antares35

LeakyLime wrote: »

Sorry my post was unclear.

I was saying you are not in the minority with your thoughts on surrogacy (thoughts I am in agreement with).

And the fact it is illegal across all European states would support the fact we are not in the minority as most lawmakers agree.

Ok thanks. I don't think it should be legalised at all tbh.

LeakyLime

Jequ0n wrote: »

I couldn’t care less if it’s banned or legalised because it doesn’t affect me. If, in a parallel universe, it did affect me somehow I’d bypass the ban and would use alternative methods because they will always exist. Depends if you want the trade to be at least partially regulated or totally unregulated I guess.

So if surrogacy laws affected you, you would be comfortable evading the law and finding an alternative method? I think the majority would think twice, no matter how deeply they wanted a biological child. More couples may go down the adoption route.

India only prohibited foreign couples from commercial surrogacy in the 2010s, it would be very revealing to see how the black market has faired since then.

Would the Irish couples using Ukranian companies, be comfortable going through an unregulated, black market? I think making it illegal in the Ukraine, would reduce the practice in Ireland significantly.

volchitsa

Antares35 wrote: »

Ok thanks. I don't think it should be legalised at all tbh.

The only strong argument for legalising it at all IMO is that the alternative (poor women being exploited in foreign countries) is worse. Unless we could make it illegal everywhere in the world, which is not going to happen.

I think in France it's illegal to adopt such children in from elsewhere to try to cut down on it. I'm not sure how well it works, but at least it's more honest than making illegal here but allowing people to buy children in from elsewhere.

First Up

volchitsa wrote:

But you're the one who assumed that poor women who do it get satisfaction other than "just" the money. So why not middle class women? Wouldn't they get the same satisfaction? And why is it ok for you to assume stuff about poor women abroad about whom you know nothing, but not about someone you know personally?

No assumption. Its what the couple I know were told by the lady who has had two and is awaiting their third child from the same Ukrainian woman.

Jequ0n

LeakyLime wrote: »

So if surrogacy laws affected you, you would be comfortable evading the law and finding an alternative method? I think the majority would think twice, no matter how deeply they wanted a biological child. More couples may go down the adoption route.

India only prohibited foreign couples from commercial surrogacy in the 2010s, it would be very revealing to see how the black market has faired since then.

Would the Irish couples using Ukranian companies, be comfortable going through an unregulated, black market? I think making it illegal in the Ukraine, would reduce the practice in Ireland significantly.

Yes I would, even though.this will never affect me. If it was something I wanted but couldn’t have I’d certainly find a way.

Believe it or not, I know multiple people who have broken the law to overcome their fertility issues. You’d be surprised how far people go if they become obsessed by something they want and can’t have. I think it’s human nature. Sadly in the example I mentioned it will be the children who will eventually suffer the consequences of their parents’ selfishness

Dyr

First Up wrote: »

I am familiar with one ongoing surrogacy attempt in Ukraine. The couple turned to that method after three miscarriages and a pessimistic evaluation of their chances. They are far from rich and are using all their savings as well as help from their parents.

They chose Ukraine after a lot of research and so far they are pleased with the process. It is highly organised and professional and the interests and care of all parties are very evident. The potential surrogate mothers are doing it for at least the second time.

The potential pitfalls are obvious but if done properly it is a win-win.

I'm sure there were plenty of American couples how had equally positive experiences with the nuns from mother and baby homes

volchitsa

First Up wrote: »

No assumption. Its what the couple I know were told by the lady who has had two and is awaiting their third child from the same Ukrainian woman.

Right, cos they wouldn't either choose to hear, or choose to tell others, the "rosy" version of events? Of course not.

Why would Ukrainian women be any different from Irish women? IOW what would your reaction be if your sister announced she was doing this for an unknown Ukrainian family? She'd have children herself (surrogates mostly do) so how would you expect your nieces and nephews to take the news that they were having a little sister or brother but it was going to be sold?

And why does it bother you to respond to that if you believe that Ukrainian women get more out of it than money? It's only hypothetical if your source is unreliable, or else if Irish women are very different about pregnancy and birth to Ukrainian women.

First Up

volchitsa wrote:

Right, cos they wouldn't either choose to hear, or choose to tell others, the "rosy" version of events? Of course not.

Doing it for a second and then a third time suggests to me it wasn't too bad.

volchitsa wrote:

Why would Ukrainian women be any different from Irish women? IOW what would your reaction be if your sister announced she was doing this for an unknown Ukrainian family? She'd have children herself (surrogates mostly do) so how would you expect your nieces and nephews to take the news that they were having a little sister or brother but it was going to be sold?


And why does it bother you to respond to that if you believe that Ukrainian women get more out of it than money? It's only hypothetical if your source is unreliable, or else if Irish women are very different about pregnancy and birth to Ukrainian women.

What does my reaction to such a hypothetical situation matter? I am not passing judgement on anyone's actions or motivation.

The couple I know are desperate to have a child and surrogacy is a last resort for them. They are doing their best to look out for everyone's interests - including the surrogate. They have talked to people who have done it and to the medical people in Ukraine. They are satisfied that it can be done safely and to the benefit of everyone involved.

I wish them all well.

volchitsa

First Up wrote: »

Doing it for a second and then a third time suggests to me it wasn't too bad.

Or she needs the money.

First Up wrote: »

What does my reaction to such a hypothetical situation matter? I am not passing judgement on anyone's actions or motivation.

The couple I know are desperate to have a child and surrogacy is a last resort for them. They are doing their best to look out for everyone's interests - including the surrogate. They have talked to people who have done it and to the medical people in Ukraine. They are satisfied that it can be done safely and to the benefit of everyone involved.

I wish them all well.

I don't know, you seem very keen to assess their motivations all the same. It's just that you're determined to put a positive spin on it all.

I don't think it's possible to be that confident that all is well. Here's an article about the legal limbo surrogate babies and mothers can find themselves in (it's about covid, but they say that this just pointed up a long existing problem).

"Ukraine should not become a semi-legal ground for trafficking children,” Gerashchenko said.

The Ministry of Internal Affairs has called for the parliament to give legal ground to surrogacy and to regulate all aspects by law."

https://neweasterneurope.eu/2020/12/24/lack-of-regulation-and-covid-19-leaves-ukrainian-surrogate-mothers-and-babies-in-limbo/

It is trafficking children. Just like babies were trafficked from Ireland to America when it was Ireland that was considered a poor country in comparison.

wench

First Up wrote: »

The couple I know are desperate to have a child and surrogacy is a last resort for them. They are doing their best to look out for everyone's interests - including the surrogate. They have talked to people who have done it and to the medical people in Ukraine. They are satisfied that it can be done safely and to the benefit of everyone involved.

I wish them all well.

Have they spoken to the surrogate? Or only to those who have benefited from the arrangement?