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Surrogacy

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If one is not able to conceive or carry a child, is some right to a child generated? How far do we go with such ideas? Surrogacy is qualitatively different to adoption where the child already exists - they cannot be evaluated in the same context.


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    #33
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    First Up wrote: »
    In the case I am familiar with, the motivations are as genuine as you could ask for.

    It is claimed that it isn't unknown for people on social welfare to have babies to move up the housing list. I'd trust the motivations of someone spending many thousands of their own hard earned money more than that.

    Infertility is desperately sad for those it affects and it affects people across all classes- but not everyone has the money to pay a surrogate in Ukraine.

    Some women on social welfare have had miscarriages and can't carry their children to full-term - they don't have your sympathy it seems.


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    #34
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Deleted User wrote:
    They both had children naturally before using a surrogate. As opposed to someone unable to conceive naturally or carry a baby to full term.

    I don't claim any inside knowledge but if you care to look it up, the medical conditions are described.


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    #35
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    isha wrote:
    It is not an issue with the peoples motivation. It is not an issue with how very much of their hard earned dosh they are willing to hand over. It is not about them. It is about the women whose bodies are used to produce babies for a demand market.


    It is a voluntary decision and in the case of Ukraine, it is carried out with considerable care.


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    #36
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    LeakyLime wrote:
    Some women on social welfare have had miscarriages and can't carry their children to full-term - they don't have your sympathy it seems.


    Of course they do.


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    #37
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Deleted User wrote: »

    I do not think surrogacy is a value neutral activity. It is open to serious abuse. I think even under the best conditions there is inherent risk and potential suffering for the birthing mother. I don't know why it is so widely accepted as it appears to be. The whole area causes me to feel very uneasy.


    I agree - I am very uneasy about surrogacy as a practice which rents out a woman's body for profit. The potential for exploitation is obvious and the implications for the children born through surrogacy as they grow to adulthood, questioning their origins is a potential quagmire.



    I understand that some people are overwhelmed with the desire for a child and are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to acquire one - but look at how we view adoption now. What real choice did mothers have in giving their children up for adoption in Ireland? And when the reservoir of Irish children available for adoption dried up, Irish people searched & continue to search the world for children to adopt - we criticise the Americans who 'bought' Irish babies in the 50s & 60s. Are Irish people doing the same to disadvantaged mothers in other countries?


    So many moral and ethical questions.


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    #38
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    KildareFan wrote:
    So many moral and ethical questions.

    There are plenty of reasons to question the ethics of adoption as carried out in Ireland in the past.


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    #39
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    KildareFan wrote: »
    I agree - I am very uneasy about surrogacy as a practice which rents out a woman's body for profit. The potential for exploitation is obvious and the implications for the children born through surrogacy as they grow to adulthood, questioning their origins is a potential quagmire.



    I understand that some people are overwhelmed with the desire for a child and are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to acquire one - but look at how we view adoption now. What real choice did mothers have in giving their children up for adoption in Ireland? And when the reservoir of Irish children available for adoption dried up, Irish people searched & continue to search the world for children to adopt - we criticise the Americans who 'bought' Irish babies in the 50s & 60s. Are Irish people doing the same to disadvantaged mothers in other countries?


    So many moral and ethical questions.

    I agree. And these questions are worth exploring.

    There are so many stories about surrogacy in the media at the moment and it's presented as a positive news story but the practice of commercial surrogacy is actually illegal in this country?

    It doesn't add up.


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    #40
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    LeakyLime wrote: »
    I agree. And these questions are worth exploring.

    There are so many stories about surrogacy in the media at the moment and it's presented as a positive news story but the practice of commercial surrogacy is actually illegal in this country?

    It doesn't add up.

    I think it comes from not wanting to be seen to criticise the Irish people who are doing it. The full ethical implications of it are not being thought through.

    I can see why people would do it but at the same time I am not comfortable with the ethics of it for payment.


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    #41
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    jam_mac_jam wrote:
    I can see why people would do it but at the same time I am not comfortable with the ethics of it for payment.

    The only issue for me is how well it is regulated. If all parties are willing participants and are protected medically and legally, then surrogacy can bring joy and financial benefit to everyone involved.


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    #42
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    First Up wrote: »
    The only issue for me is how well it is regulated. If all parties are willing participants and are protected medically and legally, then surrogacy can bring joy and financial benefit to everyone involved.

    That's all very well to imagine but in a situation where money is involved and it is illegal in most countries there is likely to be abuses. Especially when those countries are much poorer than Ireland.

    And that's before you get into ethical implications of renting somebody else's body. Issues like the child in Thailand where the couple didn't want the baby when it had downs syndrome.

    There are many reasons why it's ilegal in so many countries. And has been made illegal for foreigners in Thailand and India when it had previously been legal.

    You may believe it's perfectly regulated and it's all fine for the Ukrainian women. I don't. And I think there are ethical implications to consider.


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    #43
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    jam_mac_jam wrote:
    You may believe it's perfectly regulated and it's all fine for the Ukrainian women. I don't. And I think there are ethical implications to consider.


    I think it needs to be perfectly regulated and I think that is easier when everything is out in the open.

    "Renting" bodies applies to everything from prostitution to sweat shops. At least surrogacy produces a nice result.


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    #44
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    First Up wrote: »
    I think it needs to be perfectly regulated and I think that is easier when everything is out in the open.

    "Renting" bodies applies to everything from prostitution to sweat shops. At least surrogacy produces a nice result.

    Not such a nice result for the mother though. But that's not important as long as there's a nice baby.


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    #45
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    jam_mac_jam wrote:
    Not such a nice result for the mother though. But that's not important as long as there's a nice baby.

    What part is not nice?


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    First Up wrote: »
    What part is not nice?

    Have you completely ignored all the links detailing the abuses inherent and recorded in surrogacy operations world wide?
    Completely and casually skipped over the effects and risks inherent in any pregnancy to a woman, effects and risks which are greater for surrogate mothers because of the use of fertility and / or implantation drugs?
    I find your use of the word "nice" to be trivialising. Surrogacy is wide open to abuse. It is abused. It goes unregulated in many places. These facts are obvious, and evidenced.

    But even with "regulation" there are serious issues to be considered with using another persons body or risking their physical and emotional health.

    And for what it is worth the same goes for the whataboutery examples of prostitution and modern slave workers.


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    #47
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    isha wrote:
    Have you completely ignored all the links detailing the abuses inherent and recorded in surrogacy operations world wide? Completely and casually skipped over the effects and risks inherent in any pregnancy to a woman, effects and risks which are greater for surrogate mothers because of the use of fertility and / or implantation drugs? I find your use of the word "nice" to be trivialising. Surrogacy is wide open to abuse. It is abused. It goes unregulated in many places. These facts are obvious, and evidenced.
    On the contrary, I have been looking at this from every angle I can think of. I thought I was clear in saying that regulation is essential but for the hard of hearing, YES, REGULATION IS ESSENTIAL.
    isha wrote:
    But even with "regulation" there are serious issues to be considered with using another persons body or risking their physical and emotional health.
    Agreed, and that's why regulation and professional oversight are vital. Which are easier to do when it is being done in the full light of day, and not in backrooms.
    isha wrote:
    And for what it is worth the same goes for the whataboutery examples of prostitution and modern slave workers.

    You can tell me what is whataboutery about them whenever you like.


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    First Up wrote: »
    What makes it seedy? It enables people desperate for a family to have their own child

    No one is entitled to a child. People can be desperate in life for many things, but desperation establishes no moral or legal rights to anything ever.
    First Up wrote: »
    and its money for people who badly need it.

    People who badly need money are very high up the list of people who can be most easily exploited. Is everything for sale just because people might badly need money? Could people sell their two year olds because they badly need money? Their ten year olds? What makes it more justified to sell a new born infant than a six year old?
    First Up wrote: »
    I know it isn't cheap and some of the cost goes towards making sure the system is properly managed and regulated. Surely that's what we all should want.

    In Ukraine surrogacy costs between 30000 and 50000. About 9000 goes to the woman bearing the child. The vast majority of the rest does not go into some aspirational proper management and regulation. Some may go into health care and monitoring but most of it goes straight into the bank accounts of the people who own the agencies. It is a run for profit business.
    First Up wrote: »

    People use surrogacy as a last resort

    Some people do not. Some people use surrogacy out of choice, because they do not wish to bear a child. Some people use surrogacy because pregnancy is not possible in the marriage eg two men. Last resort again uses desperation as the basis in an argument for the establishment of legal or moral rights, and it is not a solid argument.
    First Up wrote: »
    and anyone who is that desperate for a child is a pretty safe bet to be a good parent.

    This is a huge presumption. Being desperate for a child does not in any way automatically imply the likelihood that one will be a good parent. There is zero correlation. The argument is fallaciously based on appeal to emotion. And again it resorts to ''desperation'' as some kind of claim upon life - it is not.


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    #49
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,501 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In Ukraine surrogacy costs between 30000 and 50000. About 9000 goes to the woman bearing the child. The vast majority of the rest does not go into some aspirational proper management and regulation. Some may go into health care and monitoring but most of it goes straight into the bank accounts of the people who own the agencies. It is a run for profit business.


    Additionally Ukraine is a very corrupt country, there should be zero surrogacy allowed from outside the EU for Irish citizens.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index


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    #50
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    isha wrote:
    No one is entitled to a child. People can be desperate in life for many things, but desperation establishes no moral or legal rights to anything ever.

    Nobody is entitled to anything and nothing I know about surrogacy includes entitlement - just possibility. If you think it shouldn't be possible, then the discussion stops here.
    isha wrote:
    People who badly need money are very high up the list of people who can be most easily exploited. Is everything for sale just because people might badly need money? Could people sell their two year olds because they badly need money? Their ten year olds? What makes it more justified to sell a new born infant than a six year old?
    The answer to all of those is (a) rule of law and (b) enforcement of rule of law.
    isha wrote:
    In Ukraine surrogacy costs between 30000 and 50000. About 9000 goes to the woman bearing the child. The vast majority of the rest does not go into some aspirational proper management and regulation. Some may go into health care and monitoring but most of it goes straight into the bank accounts of the people who own the agencies. It is a run for profit business.
    I don't think the agencies involved deny they are operating as a business. They provide a service, which is nothing to apologise for, especially if that's what they do.
    isha wrote:
    Some people do not. Some people use surrogacy out of choice, because they do not wish to bear a child. Some people use surrogacy because pregnancy is not possible in the marriage eg two men. Last resort again uses desperation as the basis in an argument for the establishment of legal or moral rights, and it is not a solid argument.

    Yes, many customers for surrogacy. The one I know about involves desperation and medical problems but I'm not judging anyone's reasons.
    isha wrote:
    This is a huge presumption. Being desperate for a child does not in any way automatically imply the likelihood that one will be a good parent. There is zero correlation. The argument is fallaciously based on appeal to emotion.

    I agree there are no predictable criteria for being a good parent. But I don't think it unreasonable to expect people who put their heart, soul and bank balance into becoming parents to take on the job with a fair measure of commitment.


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Additionally Ukraine is a very corrupt country, there should be zero surrogacy allowed from outside the EU for Irish citizens.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

    In mid 00’s, a childless couple I know began the process of adopting an “orphan” from Russia. What changed their minds were the facts that
    (a) The child wasn’t an orphan, but had been placed in the orphanage by the single mother and
    (b) the request for $10,000 American Dollars in cash for the facilitator.


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    #52
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,134 ✭✭✭screamer


    I don’t particularly have concerns for adults chosing to be a surrogate or use a surrogate. If they’re willing to rent their body parts and entrust their unborn child to strangers for money that’s their business. However, surrogacy like other assisted reproduction methods like donor eggs/ sperm etc leaves me worrying more for the child. It’s a hell of a complicated start to life, and a lot for a the poor kid to take onboard. In a lot of cases, I think the adults can be very selfish in these transactions, it’s all about them.


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    #53
    Ckendrick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 128 ✭✭Ckendrick


    First Up wrote: »
    The only issue for me is how well it is regulated. If all parties are willing participants and are protected medically and legally, then surrogacy can bring joy and financial benefit to everyone involved.

    Chilling. You are rationalising the idea that women can be reduced to female humans that can be employed as breeders for financial gain, with no thought given to their long term mental health, or the psychological consequences for the child.


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    #54
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    screamer wrote: »
    I don’t particularly have concerns for adults chosing to be a surrogate or use a surrogate. If they’re willing to rent their body parts and entrust their unborn child to strangers for money that’s their business. However, surrogacy like other assisted reproduction methods like donor eggs/ sperm etc leaves me worrying more for the child. It’s a hell of a complicated start to life, and a lot for a the poor kid to take onboard. In a lot of cases, I think the adults can be very selfish in these transactions, it’s all about them.

    Congratulations. You are the first person on this thread to even consider the perspective of the child, who is removed from his/her birth mother (the one who they have spent the entire last nine months with) minutes or hours after birth, never to see them again.


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    #55
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Ckendrick wrote:
    Chilling. You are rationalising the idea that women can be reduced to female humans that can be employed as breeders for financial gain, with no thought given to their long term mental health, or the psychological consequences for the child.


    Every child in human history has been born into uncertainty. Nobody chooses their parents. The ability to procreate is just physical; rearing a child is a lot more complicated.

    At least a child born through surrogacy is starting with parents who treasure them.


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    #56
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    First Up wrote: »
    On the contrary, I have been looking at this from every angle I can think of. I thought I was clear in saying that regulation is essential but for the hard of hearing, YES, REGULATION IS ESSENTIAL.


    Agreed, and that's why regulation and professional oversight are vital. Which are easier to do when it is being done in the full light of day, and not in backrooms.

    .

    How can the Irish state ensure there is effective regulation of commercial surrogacy happening in the Ukraine? The only reason Irish parents can avail of Ukranian surrogacy is because it is not subject to Irish regulations and laws.

    There is no way for the Irish state to improve regulation here.

    Anyway, I see a situation where Ukraine prohibit surrogacy to non-Ukranians in the coming years, like other poor countries have done.


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    #57
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    LeakyLime wrote:
    How can the Irish state ensure there is effective regulation of commercial surrogacy happening in the Ukraine? The only reason Irish parents can avail of Ukranian surrogacy is because it is not subject the Irish regulations and laws.

    Regulation in Ukraine is the responsibility of their own government. That is the situation everywhere.
    LeakyLime wrote:
    There is no way for the Irish state to improve regulation.
    Of course not. Anyone going to Ukraine (or anywhere else) for surrogacy will be putting their trust in the local system. The couple I know who are doing it there went to a lot of trouble to research it first and decided on Ukraine because of favourable reports. So far they are happy with the experience but they still have a long way to go.
    LeakyLime wrote:
    Anyway, I see a situation where Ukraine prohibit surrogacy to non-Ukranians in the coming years, like other poor countries have done.

    That decision will be up to them.


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    #58
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    First Up wrote: »
    Every child in human history has been born into uncertainty. Nobody chooses their parents. The ability to procreate is just physical; rearing a child is a lot more complicated.

    At least a child born through surrogacy is starting with parents who treasure them.

    This is a strange and completely unverifiable dichotomy you seem determined to establish : generally children are born into uncertainty and to parents who may likely fail due to the complicated nature of child rearing VERSUS the surrogate child who "at least" starts out as treasured. That kind of odd assertion coupled with your earlier praise of the monitoring by the agencies of the pregnant women's habits constitute an almost dystopian rationale of surrogacy being better or best parenting.


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    #59
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    First Up wrote: »
    Regulation in Ukraine is the responsibility of their own government. That is the situation everywhere.

    Of course not. Anyone going to Ukraine (or anywhere else) for surrogacy will be putting their trust in the local system. The couple I know who are doing it there went to a lot of trouble to research it first and decided on Ukraine because of favourable reports. So far they are happy with the experience but they still have a long way to

    It's not like they had an array of options to choose from. Commercial surrogacy is illegal in the vast vast majority of countries across all continents.

    Yes as I stated also regulation in Ukraine is for their government. You believe regulation is the answer to any potential issues with surrogacy. But no Irish parents to be or politicians have any power or influence regarding Ukraine.

    Therefore, there is no way to ensure better regulation of this practice.


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    #60
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,066 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    When will people understand that banning and prohibiting does not stop people from continuing practices. It just turns matters into a game because you need to use more skills or money.

    I am also convinced that a lot of people in this thread are perfectly incapable to think about anything baby or child related without getting absolutely and ridiculously emotional


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    #61
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    Jequ0n wrote: »
    When will people understand that banning and prohibiting does not stop people from continuing practices. It just turns matters into a game because you need to use more skills or money.

    I am also convinced that a lot of people in this thread are perfectly incapable to think about anything baby or child related without getting absolutely and ridiculously emotional

    So commercial surrogacy should be legalised in Ireland?


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