Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be considered Irish?

JupiterKid

Nationality has everything to do with belonging to a collective society, a common culture, a common interest and the place of one's birth and who they identify as....

...but IMO nothing to do with race.

Banana Republic 1

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Someone born here but who's parents are from another country would be Irish but their heritage would be from that country.

A person not born here who got citizenship would be an Irish citizen.

Actually the referendum years back put a stop to that, if your parents or grandparents aren’t Irish, as in Irish born on birth certificate or a citizen then you can’t legally be Irish, that what the law says unfortunately.

Munstergirl854

I (like many) have cousins in the UK who are second generation Irish and I would consider them English.

Likewise if I met a black lad from Tallaght who was born in the Coombe to Nigerian parents, I would consider him Irish.

For me, it is the country you are born and raised in that shapes you,the education you get growing up....
that is your nationality....bloodline is a different thing.

Banana Republic 1

Munstergirl854 wrote: »

I (like many) have cousins in the UK who are second generation Irish and I would consider them English.

Likewise if I met a black lad from Tallaght who was born in the Coombe to Nigerian parents, I would consider him Irish.

For me, it is the country you are born and raised in that shapes you,the education you get growing up....
that is your nationality....bloodline is a different thing.

Unless that guy parents have citizenship that not the way the law sees it unfortunately.

Wibbs

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Actually the referendum years back put a stop to that, if your parents or grandparents aren’t Irish, as in Irish born on birth certificate or a citizen then you can’t legally be Irish, that what the law says unfortunately.

That referendum was passed with the highest majority of any recent referendum, so clearly it reflected the democratic wishes of Irish voters. The previous citizenship loophole was seen as open to abuse, and it was. Ireland was also the only European nation to have such a law, all the rest operate an ancestry criteria to one degree or other. And rightfully so.

OldGoat

Me: Multigenerational Irish + born here therefore Irish.
Wifey: Dual citizenship, neither of which are Irish therefore Durty foreigner.
Child A: Born outside Ireland therefore 2/3 Durty foreigner + 1/3 Irish - Country of birth = Not Irish.
Child B: Born in Ireland therefore 1/3 Irish + 2/3 Durty foreigner + Country of birth = Irish.

Am I doing this right?

purplepanda

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Are white people who are born in China ethnically Chinese?

People of Turkic & Indo European background living under Chinese imperialist oppression are currently being interned in massive concentration camps & being indoctrinated & tortured in their millions.

Their historical oppression of Tibet is well documented. Violation & annexation of Indian territory still continues.

Obviously China considers those born of non Chinese parents not to be Chinese.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/25/coronavirus-exposed-china-history-racism-africans-guangzhou

Captain Havoc

I think being Irish is different things, and it will change as we go on. When you look at Gavin Bazunu's interview after the Luxembourg game, you hear an Irishman and to me, he's 100% Irish even if his background isn't. I have cousins who grew up in England, they consider themselves Irish, they grew up in an Irish bubble in Coventry, they played Gaelic football and hurling and did not feel English, at all, I consider them Irish.

There's the American sense of the word Irish, which isn't really about being Irish but being connected by your past. When an American says they're Irish, they don't actually believe that they are Irish like me, it's just a cultural thing and people should stop losing their sh1t over it.

To suggest that skin colour, religion or a certain level of ancestry is needed to be considered Irish is absolutely despicable. Irish people for centuries were forced out of Ireland because of "what the Brits had been doing" and finally our ancestors gained an independence that we could create a nation that is better governed by itself than by a foreign power. Today, we live that nation which is no longer one to escape from but which is attractive to others. These immigrants are part of the Irish story and certainly should not be excluded from it.

Banana Republic 1

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I think being Irish is different things, and it will change as we go on. When you look at Gavin Bazunu's interview after the Luxembourg game, you hear an Irishman and to me, he's 100% Irish even if his background isn't. I have cousins who grew up in England, they consider themselves Irish, they grew up in an Irish bubble in Coventry, they played Gaelic football and hurling and did not feel English, at all, I consider them Irish.

There's the American sense of the word Irish, which isn't really about being Irish but being connected by your past. When an American says they're Irish, they don't actually believe that they are Irish like me, it's just a cultural thing and people should stop losing their sh1t over it.

To suggest that skin colour, religion or a certain level of ancestry is needed to be considered Irish is absolutely despicable. Irish people for centuries were forced out of Ireland because of "what the Brits had been doing" and finally our ancestors gained an independence that we could create a nation that is better governed by itself than by a foreign power. Today, we live that nation which is no longer one to escape from but which is attractive to others. These immigrants are part of the Irish story and certainly should not be excluded from it.

Again that’s not the way the majority thought back at the referendum.

Munstergirl854

Wibbs wrote: »

That referendum was passed with the highest majority of any recent referendum, so clearly it reflected the democratic wishes of Irish voters. The previous citizenship loophole was seen as open to abuse, and it was. Ireland was also the only European nation to have such a law, all the rest operate an ancestry criteria to one degree or other. And rightfully so.

So a child born in Ireland to African parents who dont have an Irish passport/citizenship will be considered a citizen of that African country?

What would the case be in the U.K.?

Wibbs

Captain Havoc wrote: »

To suggest that skin colour, religion or a certain level of ancestry is needed to be considered Irish is absolutely despicable.

Would you say the same of Korean, Ugandan, Mongol, Maori, Saudi, Japanese? Or more, would you say it quite so definitively? No need to answer, it's more of a thought experiment for people in general, but if there's any great delay between the question and the answer the longer that delay the more the question isn't quite so simplistic and the answer certainly isn't.

That's one of the issues I have with the current western accepted truth of multiculturalism. Accommodations tend to only go one way and they tend to be particular too with regards to what constitutes diversity in the first place. This anti nationalism very understandably sprung from the embers of WW2 and that clusterfcuk of extreme nationalism. Add in American thought on trying to solve their own and it seems intractable clusterfcuk of ethnicity and their melting pot melting. Then we have Ireland and the Irish psyche in particular which tends to look beyond our shores for guidance from above and has a long history of insecurity about ourselves. And here we are. A notion, a dream, of well sure nobody really belongs anywhere, or is really of a place and culture and it's all random chance so let's hold hands. It's a laudable dream and one I would actually share in theory, but as history has also shown and continues to show, it doesn't tend to survive much by way of contact with the enemy of human nature, or cultures who retain a much greater sense of themselves.

Wibbs

Munstergirl854 wrote: »

So a child born in Ireland to African parents who dont have an Irish passport/citizenship will be considered a citizen of that African country?

What would the case be in the U.K.?

IIRC the child is conditionally considered a citizen, or can become one, but not the parents. Pretty much the case everywhere in Europe and much of the world. To quote from wikipedia on Jui Soli(birthright citizenship):

Since the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland was enacted in 2004, no European country grants citizenship based on unconditional or near-unconditional jus soli.

Almost all states in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania grant citizenship at birth based upon the principle of jus sanguinis ("right of blood"), in which citizenship is inherited through parents rather than birthplace, or a restricted version of jus soli in which citizenship by birthplace is automatic only for the children of certain immigrants.

Ireland was the odd man out in Europe, because of an unforeseen side effect of the Good Friday Agreement. Hence our non EU immigration jumped massively in the late 90's early 00's until a referendum was held to close that loophole.

The Americas, that is nations based and once reliant upon colonisation and immigration retain more of the jus soli idea for obvious reasons. Or what were obvious reasons. Since their populations grew and immigration was less a requirement, the conditions for citizenship increased. So in the US if you're born their you're an American citizen, but if your parents aren't they don't get automatic citizenship or leave to stay.

Midlife

It's not neat, there's a scale.

On one end is people who speak Irish and can trace only Irish ancestors as far back as whenever and at the other end are people who have never even heard of Ireland.

Where on the scale you want to define the border between 'Irish' and 'non-Irish' is up to you but there's no neat definition.

AllForIt

Off topic but I was just listening to Lammy's show on LBC in the last hour and he had a caller who was saying that afro caribbeans were being put ahead of white ppl in something related to covid, but it struck me he didn't sound genuine and he sounded just like Tommy Robinson. Afterwards some ppl txt in and said he was lying and of course it's April Fools day!

OldRio

As a side note on this. That quintessential English Author John LeCarre became an Irish Citizen before his death.
He was totally disillusioned with the way Britain and Brexit had changed England.

(Obviously with the day that's in it I may have fell for some rather sick prank)

Wibbs

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But I would like to know how, in one line, you came to a view that a group of protestants are less ethnically Irish (less Irish than...? I know not).

You said this without any knowledge of their lives, or backgrounds, or cultural integration and I'm just wondering what your thought-process is.

Anglo Irish protestants are going to deviate from the average - and on average of course - from the "local"; genetically, politically, socially, culturally and length of time in the region. The average is what sets the well, average, the mean of "Irishness" as it were and they would deviate from that to some degree or other. So therefore they would be "less" or better described as more "different" Irish than that average majority.

Wibbs

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

And how would you factor social reproduction?

I;d certainly factor it anyway. The problem is it is consistent across every "multicultural" nation. And damned right racism is a huge part of it. I wish it weren't, but the reality and the reality on the ground shows this repeatedly and the same narratives continue to be played out time and time again and place and place again. Racism isn't the entirety of it either. Culture is a huge part of it too. EG East Asian demographics consistently trend towards equal to or higher in the socioeconomic and educational trends compared to the background White Western "locals". In the US Asian Americans outperform European Americans in education and wealth and America is hardly a pro East Asian culture.

Montage of Feck

“All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”

Sephiroth_dude

I've had to delete several posts that were completely off topic and frankly some were crossing a line. Get back on topic and enough with the sweeping, disparaging statements about entire groups of people.

SharpshooterTom

purplepanda wrote: »

Irish is a nationality, English is not at present nor since 1707.

My English stepmother always said we Irish kids born with both Irish parents couldn't be English, we were Celtic not Anglo Saxon. Back in the '70's & 80's such as statement was considered uncontroversial & matter of fact. If your parents & your family were Italian, Spanish or Chinese that's what the children were called.

Well the caller was 80 herself so it kind of proves your point. I think their are a lot of people who still hold this opinion, although they are a lot less vocal about it now.

Despite having growing up in England with an English accent, I was always called Irish and never once English or British. Though I grew up Suffolk which doesn't have a lot of diversity and where the vast majority of the population is ethnically English whose parents and grandparents were all born there, so obviously having Irish parents I stood out.

DelaneyIn

Oranage2 wrote: »

Because nationalism and race is associated with Nazism, something we're all thought is wrong.

Outside of the western world, this isn’t the case. If I moved to China and had a child there, nobody would seriously see my child as native to China as the Han people. If I moved to Nigeria and had a child there, nobody would consider my child to be as native as the Igbo people. When Senator Norris was born in what is now the Congo, nobody every refers to him as Congolese nor African.

This is not considered racist in the slightest. So why the hypocrisy and double standards?

ShatterAlan

rossie1977 wrote: »

Nice one. So nobody outside native Americans can call themselves American so..

Wouldn't Inuits and eskimos be classed as American, much like Chileans or even Falklanders? They all come from the Americas...or at least were born there.

riclad

How would one define ethnically irish?
when theres black and chinese people living here having children.
this is not the 1970s ,
when most people living here were white causcasian .
i think anyone who is born here and has parents living here for years is considered irish in the eyes of the law.
i don,t think being irish could be considered part of an ethnic group.

purplepanda

According to the BBC report on the passing of Prince Phillip, he wasn't Greek despite his birthplace, they state he was of German, Danish & British ancestry.

So all those "plastics" of Irish families & ancestry are now officially Irish, as my English Stepmother always maintained.

Doubtless some forelock tugging serfs will be along shortly to claim there's different criteria for royals over mere Plebs.

Chips Lovell

What?

Bobblehats

riclad wrote: »

How would one define ethnically irish?
when theres black and chinese people living here having children.
this is not the 1970s ,

Blue eyes? Snub nose... tawny hair

Vintage Horslips raglan; beneath double denim attyre.

Gradius

Do you have to be an actual German Shepherd to be a German Shepherd?

If a sudden influx of poodles start mingling with German shepherds, then the poodles are also German shepherds.

German shepherds = German shepherds

German shepherds + poodles = German shepherds

Ergo

Poodles = German shepherds

Meanwhile

German shepherds cannot be poodles just about every else on earth.

That above is the shockingly lacking depth of critical thought on display here. Just woefully dim. There's nothing wrong with poodles or German shepherds, but it's all akin to pissing on someone and telling them it's raining. Intellectual dishonesty and ignorance.

WrenBoy

So basically being Irish is just an administrative designation on a passport. Thats all.

Snickers Man

99nsr125 wrote: »

No

No Irish heritage not Irish

Would you consider someone Chinese just because they lived a while in China.

Holding a passport is not the same as being

So in these days you can rise through the social classes thanks to universal education and equality laws,
you can change your religion (as you always could)
people are so racially intermingled that many people can pass themselves off as being of another race, despite the fact that they do not in fact have any heritage n the race they are claiming
you can even change your gender through "reassignment" surgery
.......but you gotta be a freckly, hurling playing, bony elbowed red haired blue eyed dancing-at-the-crossroads native to be properly Irish?

Gimme a break!!!

antfin

Gradius wrote: »

Do you have to be an actual German Shepherd to be a German Shepherd?

If a sudden influx of poodles start mingling with German shepherds, then the poodles are also German shepherds.

German shepherds = German shepherds

German shepherds + poodles = German shepherds

Ergo

Poodles = German shepherds

Meanwhile

German shepherds cannot be poodles just about every else on earth.

That above is the shockingly lacking depth of critical thought on display here. Just woefully dim. There's nothing wrong with poodles or German shepherds, but it's all akin to pissing on someone and telling them it's raining. Intellectual dishonesty and ignorance.

Are you suggesting that racial characteristics in humans is akin to breeds of dogs with that analogy?