advice

maestroamado

A friend has a piece of land rented to a relative and wants to get it back as the land is not being cared for which was part of the 5 year agreed term.
There are 2 years left on the agreement and my friend wants to turn into natural woodland.
How can he get the piece of land back from the farmer who is not doing what was agreed on terms of the lease? He would rather wait until the end than go legal.
It appears people renting wanted the land to get a social welfare payment and after they got the payment had no interest in the land.I advised him to apply for whatever grant in his own right and when this is processed it would sort the situation and he get his piece of land back.

Any advice welcome.
many thanks....

duffysfarm

was a 5 year lease signed to get a tax break on the rental income? if so by breaking the lease there could be tax implications on breaking the lease

maestroamado

duffysfarm wrote: »

was a 5 year lease signed to get a tax break on the rental income? if so by breaking the lease there could be tax implications on breaking the lease

As far as i know the people renting the piece of ground wanted to apply for what i think may be called (farmers dole) they set up a flock number as they have sheep.
The rent is only €1,000 per year so no tax issue. However there may be an issue for them with Social welfare payment but these people have stopped talking to my friend for no reason known to him and the land ajoins his home.

Is it difficult to break a lease if all above correct?

duffysfarm

I have no experience of it but i am sure some one else here has.

If they are not looking after the land or stock on it then make sure you are taking pictures of this as proof.

Is there a signed lease in place and are the payments up to date?

duffysfarm

breaking a lease is a legal matter so it may prove difficult to do anything if your friend doesnt want to go legal on the issue.

maestroamado wrote: »

As far as i know the people renting the piece of ground wanted to apply for what i think may be called (farmers dole) they set up a flock number as they have sheep.
The rent is only €1,000 per year so no tax issue. However there may be an issue for them with Social welfare payment but these people have stopped talking to my friend for no reason known to him and the land ajoins his home.

Is it difficult to break a lease if all above correct?

maestroamado

duffysfarm wrote: »

I have no experience of it but i am sure some one else here has.

If they are not looking after the land or stock on it then make sure you are taking pictures of this as proof.

Is there a signed lease in place and are the payments up to date?

Yes there is a signed lease and last year was paid for, he wants to sort it out now before this year is paid. The payment in this instance is really irrelevant but having people on your property who are not communicating for no known reason is not on and i completely agree with my friend on this. He did tell me they had a couple of minor disagreements as sheep strayed on-to neighbour property but these disagreements are pretty normal part of life.

He has the said pics which were taken during the winter. He did nothing about it then as there was animals and they were taken away a few weeks ago.
He also wants th have consideration for people either side and has recently made them aware of the problem. It seems from what i can see"
Farmers do not want land planted with trees but when they lease land they will not look after it"
Basically all my friend wants is a resolution but how to about achieving same....

Donald Trump

maestroamado wrote: »

As far as i know the people renting the piece of ground wanted to apply for what i think may be called (farmers dole) they set up a flock number as they have sheep.
The rent is only €1,000 per year so no tax issue. However there may be an issue for them with Social welfare payment but these people have stopped talking to my friend for no reason known to him and the land ajoins his home.

Is it difficult to break a lease if all above correct?

There are a few posters who drop into this forum who post about some "farmer's dole". They don't really seem to know much about it, other than being convinced it exists.

Strangely enough though, the regular contributors have never managed to find out how to get it! It would be useful if some of the people who post about it could publish some details. It seems a little silly that the authorities tell the non-farmers about it but never tell the farmers. But how and ever.



There are EU payments that a farmer can receive if they have "entitlements". Those average probably around 100 Euro per acre. If your story is accurate, with the man only recently setting up, then he would have had to buy those entitlements. The price for entitlements were typically around 3 times face value. And there would be no guarantee that they would continue.



There is a possibility that a young trained farmer could rent land and establish entitlements on it. But to do that they'd need to complete a course. Like the Green Cert (1-2 years) or an approved third level courses related to agriculture.

duffysfarm

Farm assist?
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html

Donald Trump wrote: »

There are a few posters who drop into this forum who post about some "farmer's dole". They don't really seem to know much about it, other than being convinced it exists.

Strangely enough though, the regular contributors have never managed to find out how to get it! It would be useful if some of the people who post about it could publish some details. It seems a little silly that the authorities tell the non-farmers about it but never tell the farmers. But how and ever.



There are EU payments that a farmer can receive if they have "entitlements". Those average probably around 100 Euro per acre. If your story is accurate, with the man only recently setting up, then he would have had to buy those entitlements. The price for entitlements were typically around 3 times face value. And there would be no guarantee that they would continue.



There is a possibility that a young trained farmer could rent land and establish entitlements on it. But to do that they'd need to complete a course. Like the Green Cert (1-2 years) or an approved third level courses related to agriculture.

148multi

maestroamado wrote: »

Yes there is a signed lease and last year was paid for, he wants to sort it out now before this year is paid. The payment in this instance is really irrelevant but having people on your property who are not communicating for no known reason is not on and i completely agree with my friend on this. He did tell me they had a couple of minor disagreements as sheep strayed on-to neighbour property but these disagreements are pretty normal part of life.

He has the said pics which were taken during the winter. He did nothing about it then as there was animals and they were taken away a few weeks ago.
He also wants th have consideration for people either side and has recently made them aware of the problem. It seems from what i can see"
Farmers do not want land planted with trees but when they lease land they will not look after it"
Basically all my friend wants is a resolution but how to about achieving same....

What is the specfic actions or inactions that the tenant is engaging in, apart from non communication.
Are these actions contrary to the lease agreement.
What loss has the property owner suffered as a result of the tenants actions.
The written contract dictate the outcome.
If the owner is going to turn the property into woodland, it may be very hard to show how the tenants actions affect him/her.

Donald Trump

duffysfarm wrote: »

Farm assist?
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html

Is that not just more or less the equivalent of FIS for non-farmers? Farmers not being originally entitled to FIS.


If you have no income, or low income, it would make absolutely no sense to go out and lease land and set yourself up as a farmer, along with the associated paperwork, when you could access benefits far easier as a non-farmer.

J.O. Farmer

maestroamado wrote: »

Yes there is a signed lease and last year was paid for, he wants to sort it out now before this year is paid. The payment in this instance is really irrelevant but having people on your property who are not communicating for no known reason is not on and i completely agree with my friend on this. He did tell me they had a couple of minor disagreements as sheep strayed on-to neighbour property but these disagreements are pretty normal part of life.

He has the said pics which were taken during the winter. He did nothing about it then as there was animals and they were taken away a few weeks ago.
He also wants th have consideration for people either side and has recently made them aware of the problem. It seems from what i can see"
Farmers do not want land planted with trees but when they lease land they will not look after it"
Basically all my friend wants is a resolution but how to about achieving same....

Sounds more like a personal dispute than anything else. What exactly does "not looking after the land" mean and why is the owner talking to neighbouring farmers "making them aware of the problem" if the land isn't being looked after they can probably see it but at the same time it doesn't affect me if my neighbour doesn't look after his land.

There was sheep on it over the winter and not now. This sounds normal. The farmer would bring home to lamb. It doesn't sound like no interest to do this or is the expectation the ground wouldn't be rested.

Sheep strayed but this got sorted, perhaps fences needed improvement and this must've been done. Is there something specific in the lease not being done.

maestroamado

Donald Trump wrote: »

Is that not just more or less the equivalent of FIS for non-farmers? Farmers not being originally entitled to FIS.


If you have no income, or low income, it would make absolutely no sense to go out and lease land and set yourself up as a farmer, along with the associated paperwork, when you could access benefits far easier as a non-farmer.

I just remember the name of the payment that he said "farm assist"
These people seem to know how it works, i or the guy who owns the piece of land know nothing about SW as i have always being employed...

maestroamado

There are a few posters who drop into this forum who post about some "farmer's dole". They don't really seem to know much about it, other than being convinced it exists.

Strangely enough though, the regular contributors have never managed to find out how to get it! It would be useful if some of the people who post about it could publish some details. It seems a little silly that the authorities tell the non-farmers about it but never tell the farmers. But how and ever.



There are EU payments that a farmer can receive if they have "entitlements". Those average probably around 100 Euro per acre. If your story is accurate, with the man only recently setting up, then he would have had to buy those entitlements. The price for entitlements were typically around 3 times face value. And there would be no guarantee that they would continue.



There is a possibility that a young trained farmer could rent land and establish entitlements on it. But to do that they'd need to complete a course. Like the Green Cert (1-2 years) or an approved third level courses related to agriculture.

This seems to be what is happening and i remember after i posted its "farm assist" and your right there was some Teagasc courser and 5 year contract.
There was no entitlements with this piece of land as not large enough, owner used keep a couple of ponies when children younger...

J.O. Farmer

maestroamado wrote: »

I just remember the name of the payment that he said "farm assist"
These people seem to know how it works, i or the guy who owns the piece of land know nothing about SW as i have always being employed...

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html#l1f4da

Seems like a lot of work for very little difference to jobseekers allowance or "normal dole".

It might be the case they've worked out they might be slightly better off given personal circumstances with kids etc. but then again it's hard to say as I don't claim SW either as I have an off farm job.

If they put the same effort into looking for and keeping a job they'd probably be much better off.

maestroamado

Donald Trump wrote: »

There are a few posters who drop into this forum who post about some "farmer's dole". They don't really seem to know much about it, other than being convinced it exists.

Strangely enough though, the regular contributors have never managed to find out how to get it! It would be useful if some of the people who post about it could publish some details. It seems a little silly that the authorities tell the non-farmers about it but never tell the farmers. But how and ever.



There are EU payments that a farmer can receive if they have "entitlements". Those average probably around 100 Euro per acre. If your story is accurate, with the man only recently setting up, then he would have had to buy those entitlements. The price for entitlements were typically around 3 times face value. And there would be no guarantee that they would continue.



There is a possibility that a young trained farmer could rent land and establish entitlements on it. But to do that they'd need to complete a course. Like the Green Cert (1-2 years) or an approved third level courses related to agriculture.

This seems to be what is happening and i remember after i posted its "farm assist" and your right there was some Teagasc courser and 5 year contract.
There was no entitlements with this piece of land as not large enough, owner used keep a couple of ponies when children younger...

maestroamado

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Sounds more like a personal dispute than anything else. What exactly does "not looking after the land" mean and why is the owner talking to neighbouring farmers "making them aware of the problem" if the land isn't being looked after they can probably see it but at the same time it doesn't affect me if my neighbour doesn't look after his land.

There was sheep on it over the winter and not now. This sounds normal. The farmer would bring home to lamb. It doesn't sound like no interest to do this or is the expectation the ground wouldn't be rested.

Sheep strayed but this got sorted, perhaps fences needed improvement and this must've been done. Is there something specific in the lease not being done.

Your spot on there was a falling out about sheep straying and the leasee was not too bothered about my friends neighbor, for this reason my friend wants them gone as having someone on his property who has no respect for my friend as will not speak, i have to say i totally agree.
The reason he is telling the neighbors is to make them aware of the intention to put trees as it is not being maintained as per agreement.
He does not want to make a big decision without flagging to neighbors as planting trees can be a bit sensetive in farming community.
I

maestroamado

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html#l1f4da

Seems like a lot of work for very little difference to jobseekers allowance or "normal dole".

It might be the case they've worked out they might be slightly better off given personal circumstances with kids etc. but then again it's hard to say as I don't claim SW either as I have an off farm job.

If they put the same effort into looking for and keeping a job they'd probably be much better off.

He is working and i am told she collects the payment and stays home looking after the family...
As i said i do not understand though i did look at the SW page i really was not interested in the detail...

J.O. Farmer

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/farming_and_fishing/farm_assist.html#l1f4da

Seems like a lot of work for very little difference to jobseekers allowance or "normal dole".

It might be the case they've worked out they might be slightly better off given personal circumstances with kids etc. but then again it's hard to say as I don't claim SW either as I have an off farm job.

If they put the same effort into looking for and keeping a job they'd probably be much better off.

Afaik you can do a certain amount of work while on farm assist,without the social welfare being on your back

Kind of like the CE schemes,where you can work along side of em,with no qs asked....see alot of older lads,who haul silage/relief milk etc do these out my way......if i was to find myself unemployed,id deffo do same

Donald Trump

maestroamado wrote: »

He is working and i am told she collects the payment and stays home looking after the family...
As i said i do not understand though i did look at the SW page i really was not interested in the detail...

Farm assist won't get them anything that FIS wouldn't give them. Just extra work. If your friend thinks that they will be financially worse off by being deprived of the land and hence some mythical "farmer dole" then they would be wrong.


Farm Assist exists because, before it, there would have been farmers who, despite working hard the whole year round, would end up with less actual direct income that the fella down the road on the actual dole who never worked a day in their life (Fella on the dole would likely also qualify for additional benefits). The farmers would have been excluded from social welfare before then.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

Afaik you can do a certain amount of work while on farm assist,without the social welfare being on your back

Kind of like the CE schemes,where you can work along side of em,with no qs asked....see alot of older lads,who haul silage/relief milk etc do these out my way......if i was to find myself unemployed,id deffo do same

A non-farmer can also work while on FIS. They can actually work full time and still claim it.


And a person on the dole can also work part time too anyway. It used to be that it was calculated based on a 6 day week so that if you had a job where you worked 2 days a week, then you could claim for 4 days dole. (or 2/3 or the weekly dole). I think there might also be an element of allowance for the income too. That might have changed.

148multi

maestroamado wrote: »

Your spot on there was a falling out about sheep straying and the leasee was not too bothered about my friends neighbor, for this reason my friend wants them gone as having someone on his property who has no respect for my friend as will not speak, i have to say i totally agree.
The reason he is telling the neighbors is to make them aware of the intention to put trees as it is not being maintained as per agreement.
He does not want to make a big decision without flagging to neighbors as planting trees can be a bit sensetive in farming community.
I

Why doesn't the property owner fence it, problem solved. Sometimes it's easier to go around a problem than to go through it.

Dinzee Conlee

maestroamado wrote: »

Your spot on there was a falling out about sheep straying and the leasee was not too bothered about my friends neighbor, for this reason my friend wants them gone as having someone on his property who has no respect for my friend as will not speak, i have to say i totally agree.
The reason he is telling the neighbors is to make them aware of the intention to put trees as it is not being maintained as per agreement.
He does not want to make a big decision without flagging to neighbors as planting trees can be a bit sensetive in farming community.
I

Hmmm...

From what I can gather, your friend signed a lease for x years, and now plans to break it. He is telling all his neighbours he intents to break it, and plant trees, but by the sounds of it - he hasn't approached the lessee to discuss...

I have sheep, on my own ground, I have fences. But even now and then, they break out. It happens...

To me, it sounds like your friend just wants out of the lease agreement, but instead of going to talk to the leasee, they are talking to everyone else about the leaseee - which doesnt seem right...

Regardless, your friend needs to go talk to the leasee. They might be glad to be rid of him too, as in my view, both you and your friend aren't coming across well so far in this thread...

maestroamado

Donald Trump wrote: »

Farm assist won't get them anything that FIS wouldn't give them. Just extra work. If your friend thinks that they will be financially worse off by being deprived of the land and hence some mythical "farmer dole" then they would be wrong.


Farm Assist exists because, before it, there would have been farmers who, despite working hard the whole year round, would end up with less actual direct income that the fella down the road on the actual dole who never worked a day in their life (Fella on the dole would likely also qualify for additional benefits). The farmers would have been excluded from social welfare before then.

My friend doesn't care a s**t about the money as he is financially secure and quite well off.
The arrangement was that the person would treat the owner and the property and the said property with respect and this has not happened.
I told him if it were mine i would consider planting and he v=be well capable of doing the little bit of maintenance himself so we are asking around for views from people who likely know.
Fencing would also be included in the planting so problem solved on all fronts.

Thanks for advice....

maestroamado

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Hmmm...

From what I can gather, your friend signed a lease for x years, and now plans to break it. He is telling all his neighbours he intents to break it, and plant trees, but by the sounds of it - he hasn't approached the lessee to discuss...

I have sheep, on my own ground, I have fences. But even now and then, they break out. It happens...

To me, it sounds like your friend just wants out of the lease agreement, but instead of going to talk to the leasee, they are talking to everyone else about the leaseee - which doesnt seem right...

Regardless, your friend needs to go talk to the leasee. They might be glad to be rid of him too, as in my view, both you and your friend aren't coming across well so far in this thread...

You can think what you like but i will send you a picture of the said field if you wish, i will also send you picture of field next door.
My friend would prefer if these people stayed and they accused him of saying something and when he asked what it was they wouldn't tell him.
Also these people took the huff and left for 4 months, they said they couldn't come back because of was said, then out of the blue they returned, it seems they realized that if they left they were going to lose some payment.
The auctioneer was made aware of what happened at the time as my friend wrote him a letter at the time.
He is not on here and he doesn't know i asked but he is quite upset about the whole thing, falling out with someone over what is about a decent weeks wages is not what decent people are about.
A bit of advice for you, Mod Snip, we'll leave that sort of "advice" out of it please. Thanks GC

Dinzee Conlee

maestroamado wrote: »

You can think what you like but i will send you a picture of the said field if you wish, i will also send you picture of field next door.

Sure, send on pics - but not sure what this will tell us?

It sounds like your friend wants to be paid for the field, and also to dictate how the field should be farmed and how it should look.

Cant have it both ways...

maestroamado wrote: »

My friend would prefer if these people stayed and they accused him of saying something and when he asked what it was they wouldn't tell him.

Maybe it was they heard your friend was going around bad mouthing the tenant, and saying he was going to break the lease, and plant the place?

maestroamado wrote: »

Also these people took the huff and left for 4 months, they said they couldn't come back because of was said, then out of the blue they returned, it seems they realized that if they left they were going to lose some payment.

You commented somewhere that your friend doesnt care about the money, but for some reason you zero in on the tenant and whether they make/lose money or not..
Why is this?

maestroamado wrote: »

The auctioneer was made aware of what happened at the time as my friend wrote him a letter at the time.

What did the auctioneer say?
Really, if you have advice from the auctioneer who I assume was involved in the lease - then why are you here?

maestroamado wrote: »

He is not on here and he doesn't know i asked but he is quite upset about the whole thing, falling out with someone over what is about a decent weeks wages is not what decent people are about.

People fall out all the time.
Its hard to know what the falling out was about, but from what you have said, its hard to know if your friend is the cause or just your friend wants to break the lease just cos they want to but wants to blame the breaking on the tenant...

maestroamado wrote: »

A bit of advice for you, you have no right to question anybody about anything.
Itf you haven't a decent contribution to make you should just shut-up...

You come onto a farming forum with questions, asking for advice on how to break a lease your friend signed with a farmer for what I can see are not well founded reasons...
But we cant question you?

maestroamado

You can ask any question you wish but you starting to blame my friend and i when i asked you and others how to resolve this problem.
The problem is he does not know what is going on so he can deal with it, he prefer not break the lease but having someone in the field where your house is on not speaking for no known reason is simply not-on.
I am pretty sure my friend preferred option be to leave lease for next 2 years but only if respect to him and his property+ his neighbor be restored.
I will give you an example of something he told me at the weekend as you a farmer and you know these things. When my friend was away some time ago when he returned the sheep were in the meadow/silage field of neighbor one side so he was unhappy, he found out that some days earlier the same sheep were on the meadow the other side, they went astray simply because there was no grass where they were.
Surely you agree this is totally unacceptable.
I be happy to send pics at a later time if there is a way i can do but i do not know if i can send in private message.
You are completely wrong as what we are looking is best option for a resolution...

Dinzee Conlee

maestroamado wrote: »

You can ask any question you wish but you starting to blame my friend and i when i asked you and others how to resolve this problem.
The problem is he does not know what is going on so he can deal with it, he prefer not break the lease but having someone in the field where your house is on not speaking for no known reason is simply not-on.
I am pretty sure my friend preferred option be to leave lease for next 2 years but only if respect to him and his property+ his neighbor be restored.
I will give you an example of something he told me at the weekend as you a farmer and you know these things. When my friend was away some time ago when he returned the sheep were in the meadow/silage field of neighbor one side so he was unhappy, he found out that some days earlier the same sheep were on the meadow the other side, they went astray simply because there was no grass where they were.
Surely you agree this is totally unacceptable.
I be happy to send pics at a later time if there is a way i can do but i do not know if i can send in private message.
You are completely wrong as what we are looking is best option for a resolution...

So, the big issue is fencing - as the sheep breaking out is the source of the problem...

So, what does the lease agreement say about this?

The IFA lease, found here - https://www.ifa.ie/leasing-land/

states

(3) To keep in good and substantial repair order and condition (using suitable materials) any buildings upon the Farm and all fixtures and fittings, spouting and fall pipes, fences, walls, pumps, gates, posts, stiles, bridges, culverts, wells, ponds, banks, watercourses, ditches, drains, waterworks, dams and roads.

(4) To maintain the hedges in stock proof condition.

I'm very interested to hear what the auctioneer has to say in all this. If he was the broker, then he should be the point of contact if the lease conditions are not being met...

maestroamado

The big issue is the farmer has no respect for anyone only rape the soil as i see it.
I read the agreement before i posted here it says maintain fences and keep up good farm practice.
The auctioneer doesn't seem to be bothered from what i am told, when he was asked he was not interested.
It was the farmer who approached my friend to ask for the land initially, my friend was delighted as he knew
and trusted the guy, they agreed a price and agent drew up contract and my friend just signed and dropped
into office. He never met the auctioneer as there was girl in office.
In life and business all people need RESPECT.
There will always be little problems to be sorted but not speaking way to do it.
This will have to be addressed when farmer wants to pay auctioneer i expect as he wrote to auctioneer.
It will be interesting to see.
I expect even if the contract is completed he will now put trees on it as too much hassle with this.
The farmer is an eejit and has behaved very badly towards a decent person.
Neither he or i know anything of farming...
BTW the land is sheep fenced as he tried sheep for a couple years but was no good at...

Donald Trump

Your friend should ask the farmer. You seem a little hung up on vague notions of some imagined payment you think the farmer is getting. No disrespect meant but you come across as having some notion in your head that farmers just get loads of money for nothing if they have a field. We'd another poster on here like that a few days ago.

For a 5 year lease, your friend will get their income tax free. So if that lease is ended prematurely, your friend would be liable for tax on it. That benefit is wholly to the owner - not to the person leasing it temporarily.

It may be the case that the farmer doesn't want the hassle of renting the place but suspects that your friend would pursue him if the farmer tried to break the lease. The farmer may just be honouring the lease even if he doesn't really want to because of this. If he is still paying your friend, then of course he is going to use the land.

Let me use numbers. The farmer has paid your friend 3000 so far. If the lease is ended, your well-off friend will have to pay tax on around half of that. So say 1500 net to your buddy for the three years. Whereas if the farmer stays put for 2 more years, your buddy ends up with 5000 in his pocket. Given that the owner seems to be going around concocting some vague claims about "farmer dole" etc. it might be a reasonable guess that there would not be a lot of trust there. So if I were the farmer, I'd be reluctant to be the one to break that lease in case I find myself in court. But if approached to break it by mutual consent, I'd jump at the chance and let the fella worry about his back-tax etc.

MrMusician18

Surely the best advice is to stay out of someone else's legal problems and advise the 'friend' to speak to a solicitor.

greysides

Thread closed for repairs.........

Subsequently re-opened.........

The word "respect " has been used a bit up to this point, I might respectfully ask that this same respect be afforded to all posters here.
Thanks. GC