United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The thing about the John Hume process is that it was mostly secretive. There were plenty of Shinners who didn't know the quiet surrender was underway. It will be the same if the scenario you paint ever comes to pass (and it is so far-fetched that the label hypotethical isn't deserved) as you will be fuming in public about unionist intransigence and the secret talks will be resolving it.

So no answer to the question, just more tangents. Ok, get the picture.

By the way again, it was Fr. Alex Reid who convinced John Hume to enter dialogue with Gerry Adams, after being initially rebuffed by Hume and totally rebuffed by Seamus Mallon and Eddie McGrady.(who adopted the DUP strategy of later embracing the outcome and pretending to have always been champions of it) And it was Adams who convinced Hume that the solution/agreement lay in an all island approach.
The SDLP made Hume do a solo run on his initially reluctant mission. And thankfully he did. He earned his statehood but he too had to take a journey, like Adams and McGuinness did, as well of all of those who embraced the agreement. Hume, no doubt informed by the disaster for everybody that Sunningdale was, was the pivot.

Shebean

blanch152 wrote: »

Doesn't matter, the flag has become a symbol of terrorism. The way it was misappropriated by SF/IRA was a disgrace.

The idea of the flag signifying peace between green and orange is a nice ideal, but the actual practical use of the flag in Northern Ireland has only created division. No amount of "education" will take away from the abuse of the flag by SF/IRA.

Nonsense. You could say the same for the Ulster flag or Union Jack.
I think Michael Collins had a dirty murderous campaign but you have to see 'terrorists' in context.
I can take of leave the flag, but suggesting anyone disgraced it is an insecurity of your own making. Why do you hold these people as so important? Ireland is bigger than any person or group. Any Irish person has a right to fly it even if you don't like their politics. That's the point of a democracy or people fighting for one.

Shebean

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way was the Union Jack misappropriated by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities?

Actually, scratch that, no point in going down another whataboutery route following criticism of SF/IRA.

You're right. The British have often disgraced themselves officially.


I don't know why you seek to bow to people who don't want a united Ireland within a united Ireland.
Change the flag or don't but the feelings of a hateful backward minority won't concern me too much.

ineedeuro

Shebean wrote: »

You're right. The British have often disgraced themselves officially.


I don't know why you seek to bow to people who don't want a united Ireland within a united Ireland.
Change the flag or don't but the feelings of a hateful backward minority won't concern me too much.

We have more than one “hateful backward minority”. So which one concerns you and which one doesn’t?

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

We have more than one “hateful backward minority”. So which one concerns you and which one doesn’t?

Fine Gael for me.

Junkyard Tom

ineedeuro wrote: »

We have more than one “hateful backward minority”. So which one concerns you and which one doesn’t?

The DUP's largest religious denomination is a tiny minority known as 'Free Presbyterian' and an awful lot of their MLA's and MP's are in the Orange Order.

Is there any equivalent party in Ireland, Britain and Ireland, Western Europe?

FileNotFound

Just watching RTE here with some sorry excuses for humans, a bunch of unionists spitting on kids and abusing them on their way to school.

I have to say, I really won't ever understand what people had to suffer at the hands of these filthy rats.

And hearing the deluded sh1te from DUP people saying they're being ethnic cleansed after years of sh1t ting on republicans. Some special twisting of reality.

Crazy stuff.

briany

FileNotFound wrote: »

And hearing the deluded sh1te from DUP people saying they're being ethnic cleansed after years of sh1t ting on republicans. Some special twisting of reality.

Crazy stuff.

Link on that would be appreciated, but even so, they either don't know the meaning of the term or are using it in a hyperbolic way to arouse passions. My bet would be firmly on the latter. Explain the current situation of Unionists/Loyalists in the North to someone who actually has been on the wrong end of ethnic cleansing and watch them laugh bitterly if a comparison is made.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

Link on that would be appreciated, but even so, they either don't know the meaning of the term or are using it in a hyperbolic way to arouse passions. My bet would be firmly on the latter. Explain the current situation of Unionists/Loyalists in the North to someone who actually has been on the wrong end of ethnic cleansing and watch them laugh bitterly if a comparison is made.

A few happy to use the term on this site too.

FileNotFound

briany wrote: »

Link on that would be appreciated, but even so, they either don't know the meaning of the term or are using it in a hyperbolic way to arouse passions. My bet would be firmly on the latter. Explain the current situation of Unionists/Loyalists in the North to someone who actually has been on the wrong end of ethnic cleansing and watch them laugh bitterly if a comparison is made.

Was on RTE after the news today. Was showing clips from the past in the show. You might be able to find it on the player.

Was just a good reminder of some of the stuff I do honestly forget sometimes.

Shebean

I can appreciate the Unionist view wanting to retain a connection with the UK. I have issue with the DUP type of people who fear equality and see keeping others down as merely defending their 'culture'. If that's their idea of culture it has no place in a democratic society.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The DUP's largest religious denomination is a tiny minority known as 'Free Presbyterian' and an awful lot of their MLA's and MP's are in the Orange Order.

Is there any equivalent party in Ireland, Britain and Ireland, Western Europe?

There is a political party that campaigned on the slogan of the armalite in one hand and the ballot box in the other. Far worse than anything in the Free Presbyterian or any other religion.

eire4

FileNotFound wrote: »

Just watching RTE here with some sorry excuses for humans, a bunch of unionists spitting on kids and abusing them on their way to school.

I have to say, I really won't ever understand what people had to suffer at the hands of these filthy rats.

And hearing the deluded sh1te from DUP people saying they're being ethnic cleansed after years of sh1t ting on republicans. Some special twisting of reality.

Crazy stuff.

I think projection comes to mind when it comes to that kind of rubbish from the DUP.

eire4

Shebean wrote: »

I can appreciate the Unionist view wanting to retain a connection with the UK. I have issue with the DUP type of people who fear equality and see keeping others down as merely defending their 'culture'. If that's their idea of culture it has no place in a democratic society.

Hate and pining for their former apartheid style run state is IMHO not culture its simply all about hate and supremacy and I totally agree has absolutely no place in a democratic society.

Varik

https://boards.ie/discussion/2058171743/united-ireland-poll-please-vote

Another Poll that got adjusted a bit.

Yes -let's have a United Ireland asap 198 21.76%

No - let's leave things as they are 395 43.41%

Yes - but within 10 years when everything is fully agreed 317 34.84%

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vb-nRky-AIsJ:https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php%3Ft%3D2058171743%26goto%3Dnewpost+&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

blanch152

https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/07/02/underneath-the-chaos-of-the-last-few-months-political-ground-is-beginning-to-shift/#more-136750

A very interesting article on the Slugger website.

"My own gut feeling is that the overall trend is now heading towards the middle. "

"As for the Border Poll it’s just SF’s placeholder for any real politics in the north. It’s largely nonsense not least because the party keeps asking its political rivals to come up with a plan it still doesn’t have for a UI, but it upsets the unionists so it goes down well with it’s poverty stricken base."

"The SDLP leadership seems to understand some of these dynamics. It’s making headway in places where under the old rules no nationalist party stood a chance in hell of getting votes. It’s doing that by showing its bona fides in a commitment to social change in the near term for all the people of Northern Ireland without constitutional preconditions attached."

Some real optimism in there that the era of the sectarian parties - DUP and SF - may be slowly coming to an end.

Junkyard Tom

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117615329#Comment_117615329

Partitionist Phases of Grief:

Phase 1: 'never going to happen'.

Phase 2: 'it's decades away yet'. 👈️

Phase 3: 'we can't afford it'.

Phase 4: 'Unionists must buy in'.

Phase 5: 'NI must go independent'.

blanch152

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117616854#Comment_117616854

You are probably too young to remember when records got stuck in the groove and repeated the same thing over and over to extreme tediousness and boredom. It was nearly as unoriginal as that.

FrancieBrady

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117615329#Comment_117615329

Then Collum names Soldier F in order to try steal a few SF votes.

My advice would be to read the comments blanch, you'll find those who know the realpolitik in the north are not fooled by the 'middle ground' and 'NI' identity clutching at handbags indulged in by partitionists and anti UIers and Unionists alike.

NI has failed, it is a divided society in a twilight world, and it is heading towards what the GFA provided for, a UI referendum. Wishful thinking will not change that.

joseywhales

Honestly with this current Tory government, I would wait a few more years, the middle class Catholics in NI are required as part of the demographic shift and I bet a lot of them are fence sitting, this current Tory government will push them toward a UI. We had brexit, we have this non prosecution of military, you can be sure there will be more nonsense to break the inertia.

jimmycrackcorm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117617652#Comment_117617652

NI would be a divided society as part of a UI as things stand. So better to wait until things normalize over time. They have been gradually doing so.

It would be a disaster for the island as a whole to push UI too early.

Junkyard Tom

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117617999#Comment_117617999

There would be no NI in a United Ireland. What you're saying is 'a percentage of Unionists would be unhappy in a United Ireland'. Yes, there will be people who feel annoyed at the permanent ending of their unionist enclave. Boo-hoo.

2ndcoming

We're in the last days of NI, without question. The firebrands are all finished and the youngsters don't care really but at least know where they're not wanted. I'd be surprised if it takes 10 years.

Ardillaun

We’ve seen the serious problems that have popped up for the state in what should have been a fairly routine task of building a new national children’s hospital. UI could dwarf them - think of it as the ultimate megaproject, fully capable of ruining the country many times over if mishandled - which is why we should consider any vote for UI as the start of an extremely complex, arduous process that could go pear-shaped in all sorts of ways, known and unknown. What we need from the UI boosters is evidence they have fully considered what this really means on various key issues, e.g. debt, taxation, benefits, pensions, legal harmonization etc. etc. and, of course, security. On policing, I think a transition period of perhaps a decade would be necessary before amalgamating PSNI and AGS on the ground. Our lads are not ready to go up there. The UI Now guys should be surprising us with potential pitfalls we didn’t even think about, and possible solutions. I’m seeing too little of that and too much of ‘it’ll be grand and those Unionists had it coming’ which doesn’t inspire confidence.

FrancieBrady

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117617999#Comment_117617999

NI has failed because of how it was designed...it was meant to be divided.

It requires a solution. NI independence won't work for the same reason, partition didn't so the only workable option is a UI.

A UI is in the interests of us, the rest of the EU and the UK.

I'm convinced the Tory's are pushing it away while pretending to cherish it.

blanch152

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117618061#Comment_117618061

This is exactly the type of attitude that turns people off a united Ireland.

We changed our Constitution to remove the territorial claim and seek a unity of the people to move away from this 19th century thinking and attitude. Unfortunately, the likes of SF, the good republicans and their supporters don't seem to understand.

blanch152

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117618397#Comment_117618397

A united Ireland as you envisage won't work either then, because it will still be divided. There is a real paradox at play. Unless the people of Northern Ireland learn to live, educate and work together in a non-sectarian society, then there is no possibility of a united Ireland, but if that happens, the possibility of a united Ireland diminishes.

FrancieBrady

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117618956#Comment_117618956

A real Unionist-centric plea to allow them the majority state they have grown used to, if ever there was one.

Democracy can only function if people accept the majority wish. Nationalists have accepted that since the GFA, Unionists most certainly haven't which is why we are where we are.

jh79

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117617652#Comment_117617652

What makes you think we are heading to a referendum? There has never been a poll showing majority support and the last few polls are showing the gap increasing again.

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117621400#Comment_117621400

Tbf its openly implied,and acknowleged by all sides that it is likely happening in next few years....and openly suspected the british government tipped off coveney as regards initial demographic findings of the census

Hence the sudden rush by fg to be seen to get onboard the utd ireland train at their ard feis