Leinster Vs Munster Pro 14 final build up thread

bayern

theVersatile wrote: »

FWIW I've always thought the Murray criticism was far overblown (post history will back this up).

And let's be honest - the POM stuff went far beyond simple constrictive criticism. No point in kidding ourselves. I'd argue the Murray stuff did too. Lowe and JGP are probably similar Leinster examples rather than anyone Bayern mentioned.

Conan, JVDF and McGrath are regularly called not good enough for Ireland by munster fans.

theVersatile

theVersatile wrote: »

FWIW I've always thought the Murray criticism was far overblown (post history will back this up).

And let's be honest - the POM stuff went far beyond simple constrictive criticism. No point in kidding ourselves. I'd argue the Murray stuff did too. Lowe and JGP are probably similar Leinster examples rather than anyone Bayern mentioned.

So, no rightful criticism for Munster players it seems.

aloooof

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

So, no rightful criticism for Munster players it seems.

As is good and proper.

The Inbetween is mine

bayern wrote: »

Conan, JVDF and McGrath are regularly called not good enough for Ireland by munster fans.

JVDF is highly thought of in Munster I can tell you that.

theVersatile

bayern wrote: »

Conan, JVDF and McGrath are regularly called not good enough for Ireland by munster fans.

Conan yes - the other two not a hope. All you have to do is look in the Leinster thread and go through the pages upon pages of JGP v McGrath arguments to see that Leinster fans still have doubts upon his passing. Attributing that to Munster fans is complete horse manure.

Same with JVDF, I don't think I've ever seen anybody from anywhere say he's not good enough for Ireland - considering he was a mainstay in the starting XV up until this Six Nations campaign. Sure some might have said POM and Connors should be starting ahead - but nobody outright said VDF isn't international level. Again, attributing such comments to "Munster fans" in general is faeces of the bull variety.

bayern

Since the 2011 Magners final, the score is 17-5 in Leinster’s favour.

theVersatile

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

So, no rightful criticism for Munster players it seems.

The point isn't that the criticism they faced wasn't rightful. The point was that once the constructive criticism stopped, the vitriol and abuse started which is not on.

"POM's red was brain dead and cost us the game" = acceptable.

"POM should never be seen in an Irish Jersey again - disgraceful c**t" = not okay.

Jump_In_Jack

bayern wrote: »

Yeah he simply shouldn't have went to RWC.

That's the type of BS that's been being passed off as fact by Leinster fans in particular for the last 2 years.

Roux was ill that summer and couldn't feature, and Schmidt said he needed a dedicated tight side lock, and at the time like it or not Kleyn was the best option available to fill that role.

Henderson and Ryan were the starting locks and Schmidt wanted Beirne and another tight side lock.

Simply, at the time, Toner wasn't performing well enough, he had struggled to regain form after an ankle injury and Schmidt made a selection call to take Kleyn instead.

Since then in particular Leinster fans have been hyper-critical of his performances. It's petty and obvious.
JK hasn't reached his best form in a while, but at the time he was the best option available.

theVersatile

theVersatile wrote: »

The point isn't that the criticism they faced wasn't rightful. The point was that once the constructive criticism stopped, the vitriol and abuse started which is not on.

"POM's red was brain dead and cost us the game" = acceptable.

"POM should never be seen in an Irish Jersey again - disgraceful c**t" = not okay.

I've never called him a 'disgraceful ****' but I'm 10000% fine with the sentiment he shouldn't play for Ireland again, is that ok?

irishbucsfan

Have people been hyper critical of Kleyn?

Have to say I haven’t even seen much mention of him at all in a while.

If people were saying he shouldn’t be in contention for Ireland... well I don’t think there’s any argument at all that there are guys well ahead of him now

Former Former Former

theVersatile wrote: »

The point isn't that the criticism they faced wasn't rightful. The point was that once the constructive criticism stopped, the vitriol and abuse started which is not on.

"POM's red was brain dead and cost us the game" = acceptable.

"POM should never be seen in an Irish Jersey again - disgraceful c**t" = not okay.

The problem here is that you're looking at the world in Leinster v Munster terms only because YOU have such a grudge against Leinster.

If you go back and look at the criticism of these players, I'll bet you the Connacht and Ulster fans have just as much to say about them. Likewise the flak for Lowe (for example) was coming from all angles, not just from the south.

Conversely, if you look at people who were arguing for Murray and POM to be in the squad, you'll see plenty of Leinster fans in there too. If you want to see it, that is.

yerrahbah

bayern wrote: »

Yeah he simply shouldn't have went to RWC.

Why not?

molloyjh

theVersatile wrote: »

The point isn't that the criticism they faced wasn't rightful. The point was that once the constructive criticism stopped, the vitriol and abuse started which is not on.

"POM's red was brain dead and cost us the game" = acceptable.

"POM should never be seen in an Irish Jersey again - disgraceful c**t" = not okay.

I think you've missed something here. Dicks said the latter. Not Leinster fans. Unfortunately some Leinster fans are dicks and some dicks are Leinster fans. I saw a few Munster fans saying similar to the latter online too.

Sure didn't Sexton cop a load of flak over the last few years from all and sundry. Internet dicks will be dicks.

theVersatile

Former Former Former wrote: »

The problem here is that you're looking at the world in Leinster v Munster terms only because YOU have such a grudge against Leinster.

If you go back and look at the criticism of these players, I'll bet you the Connacht and Ulster fans have just as much to say about them.

I've no grudge against Leinster - but I do see your point yes that plenty of other Irish fans from the other provinces said similar. The same applies to anything Leinster players have received too though

Edit: I see you've edited your post to say as much. We're in agreement

aloooof

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

I've never called him a 'disgraceful ****' but I'm 10000% fine with the sentiment he shouldn't play for Ireland again, is that ok?

He was one of our better players during the ANC. It's just nonsense to think that he brings so little that he should never play for Ireland again.

salmocab

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Have people been hyper critical of Kleyn?

Have to say I haven’t even seen much mention of him at all in a while.

If people were saying he shouldn’t be in contention for Ireland... well I don’t think there’s any argument at all that there are guys well ahead of him now

Can’t remember the last time I heard alleys mentioned at all really. Certainly haven’t seen much if any abuse. This seems like a case of someone making things up to expand a narrative they are pushing.

Jump_In_Jack

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Have people been hyper critical of Kleyn?

Have to say I haven’t even seen much mention of him at all in a while.

If people were saying he shouldn’t be in contention for Ireland... well I don’t think there’s any argument at all that there are guys well ahead of him now

I've no problem with people saying he isn't performing well enough to be in contention for a call up to the Ireland squad at the moment.

I do have a problem with comments that he was never any good, and he shouldn't ever have been selected for the RWC.

The time he was selected came after a season where he was putting in very physical performances for Munster regularly.
He was exactly the type of player Schmidt wanted to have in reserve if we'd come up against South Africa.
Quinn Roux might have been a better option if he'd not been ill at the time.

As it happens at the moment Thomas Ahern is tearing it up every chance he gets, and Snyman will be back by next season, so Kleyn may find himself in trouble to start for Munster, not to mind Ireland going forward, unless he can really up his performances, and he has had a few neck injuries over the last two years, so possibly he is struggling to regain full strength again, who knows.

Jump_In_Jack

salmocab wrote: »

Can’t remember the last time I heard alleys mentioned at all really. Certainly haven’t seen much if any abuse. This seems like a case of someone making things up to expand a narrative they are pushing.

Go back a page, see comment that he should never have gone to the RWC, that kind of comment has been thrown out regularly, be honest.

stephen_n

aloooof wrote: »

Which pundits?

Ferris, Lenihan and Jackman I may have over stated it a little for effect :pac:

salmocab

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Go back a page, see comment that he should never have gone to the RWC, that kind of comment has been thrown out regularly, be honest.

Go back and look at the original comment versatile made its just not true, Kleyn is only getting a mention here at all because a Munster supporter brought him up. I doubt he’d have gotten a mention in this thread beyond maybe someone saying x is better than him once the teams are announced when they are doing a head to head who’s better list.

irishbucsfan

Yeah I don’t really see anything there that suggests he’s hard done by at all.

Disagree with the idea that it’s OK to question his international pedigree now but it was absolutely unacceptable to question his inclusion in a squad previously.

Kleyn is probably the worst example. Because regardless of whether he should have been picked (and I agreed with it I think?), everything that has actually happened since has supported the argument he shouldn’t have been.

If people were making it personal that’d be different

Clegg

Kleyn's card was forever marked when he failed to clear out JGP from a ruck.

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

He was one of our better players during the ANC. It's just nonsense to think that he brings so little that he should never play for Ireland again.

That isn't really the point, if you think he should become god-emperor of Irish rugby and play until he's 90 then grand.

Jump_In_Jack

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah I don’t really see anything there that suggests he’s hard done by at all.

Disagree with the idea that it’s OK to question his international pedigree now but it was absolutely unacceptable to question his inclusion in a squad previously.

Kleyn is probably the worst example. Because regardless of whether he should have been picked (and I agreed with it I think?), everything that has actually happened since has supported the argument he shouldn’t have been.

If people were making it personal that’d be different

It has toned down more recently, but it has been a common insult thrown at Kleyn by Leinster fans since RWC19, rewriting history that just because he hasn't been as good since the world cup that he wasn't ever good in the lead in to it to gain selection, that kind of illogical BS.
Anyway, as theVersatile said, will still be in his mind and gives him plenty of fuel to go out and prove he still has what it takes.

aloooof

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

That isn't really the point, if you think he should become god-emperor of Irish rugby and play until he's 90 then grand.

Yep, that's exactly the point I was making....

pickarooney

Akrasia wrote: »

Munsters 1st choice team is just as good as Leinsters 1st choice team. Our problem is in the depth chart and we haven’t had our 1st choice playmaker fit in almost 2 years

Munster will Win this weekend
We have way more to play for than Leinster have. CJs last ever league game is worth 10 points on its own

Your first choice playmaker is a Leinster reject though, so not sure how he could match up even if he wasn't made of spun sugar.

thomond2006

Who cares about who said what?

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Who cares about who said what?

John Hayes was average.

Former Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Who cares about who said what?

Yeah well, you would say that, wouldn't you?

Jump_In_Jack

Former Former Former wrote: »

Again, this is how YOU perceive things. You assume the criticism is not because he's mediocre, but because Leinster fans are bitter that he took Toner's spot.

If we took a straw poll among Connacht and Ulster fans about the merits of Jean Kleyn as a test player, do you think the results would be any different? Does the fact that he hasn't featured in green since not tip you off that maybe he isn't actually that good?

This is a horrible line of discussion and there's some real bitterness behind it. I almost hope Munster win tomorrow, maybe then the healing can start.

I percieve it that way because that's the way it was, just because Toner was the high profile player left out, and to a smaller extent Dillane from a Connacht perspective, Kleyn drew unnecessary remarks that he wasn't good enough, when to anyone objectively he clearly was the best option at the time.
Unless you think Schmidt made uncalculated selection choices?

thomond2006

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

John Hayes was average.

You're not Buer, so I know you're only joking. It's cool.

Jump_In_Jack

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I percieve it that way because that's the way it was, just because Toner was the high profile player left out, and to a smaller extent Dillane from a Connacht perspective, Kleyn drew unnecessary remarks that he wasn't good enough, when to anyone objectively he clearly was the best option at the time.
Unless you think Schmidt made uncalculated selection choices?

Do you not think declaring you know the objective truth and everyone else is wrong is just a tad ridiculous?

Jump_In_Jack

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

Do you not think declaring you know the objective truth and everyone else is wrong is just a tad ridiculous?

That's a conundrum when it's precisely what you and others are claiming, and on a discussion forum it's part of discussion to put forward your point of view.

The Inbetween is mine

salmocab wrote: »

Go back and look at the original comment versatile made its just not true, Kleyn is only getting a mention here at all because a Munster supporter brought him up. I doubt he’d have gotten a mention in this thread beyond maybe someone saying x is better than him once the teams are announced when they are doing a head to head who’s better list.

You need to look back at the WC thread when Dev wasn't selected...go on...I dare you

Former Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I percieve it that way because that's the way it was, just because Toner was the high profile player left out, and to a smaller extent Dillane from a Connacht perspective, Kleyn drew unnecessary remarks that he wasn't good enough, when to anyone objectively he clearly was the best option at the time.
Unless you think Schmidt made uncalculated selection choices?

That's exactly what I think, said so at the time and still maintain that opinion.

Kleyn is not good enough for test rugby, you can call me a blue-eyed whatever but he's not, he's a Pro14 level player.

The Inbetween is mine

Former Former Former wrote: »

That's exactly what I think, said so at the time and still maintain that opinion.

Kleyn is not good enough for test rugby, you can call me a blue-eyed whatever but he's not, he's a Pro14 level player.

Not blue eyed.. just incorrect

I'd wager Kleyn will never win another Ireland cap. It was a truly awful selection.

ionadnapokot

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I percieve it that way because that's the way it was, just because Toner was the high profile player left out, and to a smaller extent Dillane from a Connacht perspective, Kleyn drew unnecessary remarks that he wasn't good enough, when to anyone objectively he clearly was the best option at the time.
Unless you think Schmidt made uncalculated selection choices?

Kleyn is not good enough. This is why i would say he was critised by supporters.
In the 3 warm-ups he was below average. In the Wales game I watched him closely. He stopped North in his tracks and also cleared AWJones out of ruck. Both in the 1st half. After hitting another ruck on the HT mark he slowly picked himself up and trudged off.
He claimed 1 Lineout in the three warm-up games.

Regardless of Toner, Dillane or Kleyn their selection was to play in those Russia & Samoa games.

The fact of course that he isnt good enough for test level AND SA was a lightning rod for allot of people looking to join idiotic dots.

Former Former Former

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Not blue eyed.. just incorrect

Meh. If he ever gets another Ireland cap, come back to me. I think I'm safe enough though.

With Thomas Ahern being the messiah of the second-row, Beirne in the form of his life and RG Snyman hopefully coming back next season, I think Kleyn is going to fade into the background even at Munster.

Tomtom364

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Have people been hyper critical of Kleyn?

Have to say I haven’t even seen much mention of him at all in a while.

salmocab wrote: »

Go back and look at the original comment versatile made its just not true, Kleyn is only getting a mention here at all because a Munster supporter brought him up. I doubt he’d have gotten a mention in this thread beyond maybe someone saying x is better than him once the teams are announced when they are doing a head to head who’s better list.

I wouldn't say he hasn't been mentioned tbf.

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Tadgh Beirne is in the form of his life but compounded by the fact that he'll likely be partnering Kleyn whose just not a reliable enough player in big games.

Clegg wrote: »

You're right about Beirne. But that advantage is negated by the probable presence of Jean Kleyn. I really don't rate him.

I think saying Kleyn is poor enough to negate the fantastic form of Bierne is a bit hyperbolic

thomond2006

Former Former Former wrote: »

Meh. If he ever gets another Ireland cap, come back to me. I think I'm safe enough though.

With Thomas Ahern being the messiah of the second-row, Beirne in the form of his life and RG Snyman hopefully coming back next season, I think Kleyn is going to fade into the background even at Munster.

Stander's retirement probably puts Beirne in the frame to play more in the backrow. Kleyn has been a great signing at Munster, his biggest issue has been (neck) injuries and not his talent.

There was a young man named Peter
Who was a determined and passionate competer
Reggie made him see red
He often loses the head
And on Saturday he will be a weeper

Squidgy Black

John Hayes drinks Lyons and thinks that Barry's is just mucky water.

BoardsMember

thomond2006 wrote: »

Stander's retirement probably puts Beirne in the frame to play more in the backrow. Kleyn has been a great signing at Munster, his biggest issue has been (neck) injuries and not his talent.

Listening to the Rugby Pod during the week, Beirne came across really well.

Interesting to hear him say that he much prefers to play 2nd row than 6. He commented on the fact it gets him more involved, more opportunity to get hands on the ball, into the game earlier etc.

He did add context saying that the preference may be specifically related to the systems in Munster and Ireland, and how we use our 6. I wonder if that was with an eye on potential of Gatland listening in.

scott1974

Any chance of Doris featuring tomorrow?

scott1974

scott1974 wrote: »

Any chance of Doris featuring tomorrow?

Don't think so.

theVersatile

scott1974 wrote: »

Any chance of Doris featuring tomorrow?

We'll find out in about fifteen minutes

bayern

scott1974 wrote: »

Any chance of Doris featuring tomorrow?

no

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a young man named Peter
Who was a determined and passionate competer
Reggie made him see red
He often loses the head
And on Saturday he will be a weeper

Do one...










...for Keith Earls.

scott1974

bayern wrote: »

no

He's all kitted out in that pic.


https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1375130362964103170?s=19