Line between flirting and harrasment?

KrustyUCC

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact is, some fellas know no other way but to push themselves on women, pestering them in the hope they'll capitulate.



Sad, really.

Those two knew each other and went to the club together

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/photo-of-woman-bored-to-death-by-drunk-clubber-is-world-s-most-relatable-meme-a3945261.html

MrStuffins

notsoyoungwan wrote: »

Why have you said you should ‘probably’ leave her alone? If a woman has asked you to leave her alone you should leave her alone, no probably about it.

Agreed

GooglePlus

I don't try to flirt or that. I try to knock a bit of craic and have the laugh with them, maybe even have a conversation that's genuine. If they're not getting my craic, I lose interest fairly quick. There's nothing more attractive than someone I can laugh my arse off with and from experience, I've found that they find nothing more attractive either.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That kind off bull**** makes me sure you are one of the people that found "baby it's cold outside" problematic.

I've no idea what it is you are talking about. But because you are aware of such frivolous stuff it sounds like you might be engaged in online battles elsewhere about how 'ye can't say anything these days'.


Ami righ?

GooglePlus

notsoyoungwan wrote: »

Why have you said you should ‘probably’ leave her alone? If a woman has asked you to leave her alone you should leave her alone, no probably about it.

I think italics would have come in handy, as in they probably should've used them i.e. definitely. Don't be starting battles where there is none. It's obvious what the poster meant and what their stance is.

Strumms

If you want to talk to a girl, she is interested in talking, grand... if not.... you should leave it, by persistenting it’s just a bit weird and creepy. As much as some people thrive on or appreciate attention, there is the wrong kind of attention too... need to be socially savvy, respectful of the fact that no girl wants to spend a quarter of her night trying to keep needy hornbags away from them... you don’t know the difference the issue is with you, not the girl.... it’s creep territory...

notsoyoungwan

GooglePlus wrote: »

I think italics would have come in handy, as in they probably should've used them i.e. definitely. Don't be starting battles where there is none. It's obvious what the poster meant and what their stance is.

It wasn’t obvious to me what the poster meant, which is why I asked for an explanation. I wasn’t ‘starting battles’. Given that the thread is about interpreting various forms of communication and the inherent nuances, I don’t think I was unreasonable to ask the poster to explain their comment.

El Gato De Negocios

Kiith wrote: »

Its very easy lads.

• Demonstrate value
• Engage physically
• Nurture dependence
• Neglect emotionally
• Inspire hope
• Separate entirely

In all seriousness, it usually is pretty obvious.

Im fearing more people aren't appreciating this, pity.

HamSarris

Women in 2021: We live in a rape culture where I can't walk down the street without being harassed. Men leave us alone.

Women in 2031: We live in a world full of pathetic men who would rather watch virtual reality porn than talk to a woman.

HamSarris

HamSarris wrote: »

Women in 2021: We live in a rape culture where I can't walk down the street without being harassed. Men leave us alone.

Women in 2031: We live in a world full of pathetic men who would rather watch virtual reality porn than talk to a woman.

Brilliant. We're going to blame Women who want to walk down the road without being harassed for creepy guys' porn addictions.

You're a genius.

MrStuffins

HamSarris wrote: »

Women in 2021: We live in a rape culture where I can't walk down the street without being harassed. Men leave us alone.

Women in 2031: We live in a world full of pathetic men who would rather watch virtual reality porn than talk to a woman.

There are a certain number of creeps who have really warped ideas as to where they stand in society, where women stand in society and how society is in general.

These creeps are the ones who are doing the harassing that women are speaking about. Sometimes they won't, but a lot of the time they will exhibit red flags with behaviours, with actions or with statements. There have been a few in this thread.

This is one of those red flags

Galwayguy35

Never went down the flirting route, if I saw someone i like I went over to make contact and if they weren't interested I went on my merry way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jygOs2AVFlQ

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

There are a certain number of creeps who have really warped ideas as to where they stand in society, where women stand in society and how society is in general.

These creeps are the ones who are doing the harassing that women are speaking about. Sometimes they won't, but a lot of the time they will exhibit red flags with behaviours, with actions or with statements. There have been a few in this thread.

This is one of those red flags

Tell us all the red flags.

Tell us how women should be treated.

Tell us how men and women are equal and have no differences.

Tell us how everyone is equal.

Then tell is how we should treat women differently because of their experiences.

Tell us how we should elevate and venerate the woman because of the patriarchy.

Then tell me how you aren't a sexist or transphobic for expecting women to be treated differently.

MrStuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tell us all the red flags.

Tell us how women should be treated.

Tell us how men and women are equal and have no differences.

Tell us how everyone is equal.

Then tell is how we should treat women differently because of their experiences.

Tell us how we should elevate and venerate the woman because of the patriarchy.

Then tell me how you aren't a sexist or transphobic for expecting women to be treated differently.

I feel like this is about something else......

Mister Vain

GooglePlus wrote: »

I don't try to flirt or that. I try to knock a bit of craic and have the laugh with them, maybe even have a conversation that's genuine. If they're not getting my craic, I lose interest fairly quick. There's nothing more attractive than someone I can laugh my arse off with and from experience, I've found that they find nothing more attractive either.

I find this to be the best way alright. I'm terrible at the whole flirting/chatting up thing. It just seems so forced. It's much more fun when you can have a laugh and a bit of craic with someone.

Mimon

Mister Vain wrote: »

I find this to be the best way alright. I'm terrible at the whole flirting/chatting up thing. It just seems so forced. It's much more fun when you can have a laugh and a bit of craic with someone.

When I was single I would more likely get attention from women on nights out by not looking for any attention, just going out and enjoying the night with my friends and being sociable with everyone in the place.

I feel like I was conditioned to push boundaries growing up. Guys are supposed to make all the first moves. Girls are supposed to be coy otherwise they're labelled "sluts".

GooglePlus

Ryan_Garcia_ wrote: »

Flirting shouldn't be forced, it's about being playful, teasing each other and having fun.

Flirting from the onset can only be forced though. Like in a club for instance, you'd see lads walking up to girls and going straight into a flirt game, which the girl might love either for the flattery or she's just as mad for the ride as him. That kind of flirting is all well and good for a yes or no, move on situation but it can only be forced, sure you wouldn't even know the girl so all you can really comment on is her looks, so it is a bit forced at times. Genuine flirting can happen after a bit of conversation and getting to know eachother over a few drinks or dinner but the conversation, a bit of a laugh etc. would come first.

Mister Vain

Yeah obviously you can flirt with someone once you've gotten to know them a bit. Trying to strike up a conversation with a stranger in a noisy club is a different story though

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yes.

And how do you know which is which unless the line is pointed out to you? ANd there's a simple way to do that.

If a woman asks you to leave her alone, you should probably leave her alone. Honestly not that hard to understand. Not matter how many times you present the same question in different scenatrios.

Which is grand. You're right. A woman asks you to leave her alone, you should leave her alone.

However, that's the most obvious behavior that a woman is not interested. Many women won't say that, and will rely on body language as opposed to the verbal. At that point, the line between harassment and "chasing" is very fine. Especially since body language can be very different depending on the individual. And yes, some body language is very obvious, but again, many women won't show that, instead using another way to express themselves.

We have a society that, for a very long time, encouraged the idea that men should pursue women. We still have movies and tv shows which show a couple magically coming together because the man continued to chase the woman. Apparently, it's romantic under the right circumstances.

I've been dating a long time, and yes, I tend to stop with a woman when I hit any obvious roadblock... but at the same time, the interactions with women, are not as simple as many here want to make them out to be. There's an attitude of simplifying human behavior, as if all women will behave the same way, which they most definitely don't.

The sad thing is that many women will judge a man based on his approach, and if he is lacking in confidence, she'll dismiss him. This fine line about harassment pretty much guarantees that men with little experience will be lacking in confidence, because they can be accused of harassment for the simplest of approaches, and that will bleed into their confidence.

TBH IMHO western dating is too effort now. There are too many risks involved, from the approach, right through to how she might perceive the end result. I'd recommend most guys to date other cultural groups where dating, and approaches are far more obvious, and set within boundaries of traditional social norms... because within western society, there are no norms anymore. Everything and anything is possible.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

I feel like this is about something else......

Well, think of this way. We once had a traditional society, with clear guidelines on behavior, especially when it came to dating and relationships. However, that society was sexist and unfair, so all guidelines were burned away to free people from repressive rules. Grand.

Except, all people weren't freed. Women were freed, men were encouraged to continue the past roles. Men should continue to protect women. Men should continue being the first to initiate any romantic initiatives. Men should.. etc. It's obvious enough that the gender roles in traditional society, still exist today for men. However, the gender roles for women were sexist and as such, all rules/customs about women should be destroyed. Which, for the most part, except where they wanted to retain them, were. Women wanted to continue being protected, so they were. They still wanted motherhood to be special, so it was. However, a wide range of other gender roles were abolished.

The point is that for the last 30 years, most traditional social expectations for women have been removed. They have the freedom to dress as they wish. To get drunk, and party the same as a man. To be an Ahole, just the same as any other man might be an Ahole... all the while retaining the benefits or advantages that existed in the traditional society.

If you've got even the slightest sense of fairness, you'll be able to see and acknowledge this about western society.

The problem is that when you remove the customs, and rules for society, what do you replace them with? For most western cultures, the clear and specific traditional customs, were replaced with vague ideas of "you should just know". Worse yet, these newer customs were subject to change over time, so it wasn't the case of learning a new set of guidelines and running with them, but needing to update yourself every few years. And when, the expectation is on men to initiate romantic/intimate proceedings, that's going to cause problems... because there are no clear rules and guidelines for them to follow. Just.. "it's obvious, you should just know".

At the same time, those traditional values (which had been replaced) were still being presented in movies, and TV as being important. We received conflicting statements, whereby some would say this behavior is wrong, and condescending, whereas others would describe it as being romantic. Western society has been fed conflicting ideas on what is acceptable and unacceptable for decades, so, where should men learn how to behave?

They learn as they've always learned. By doing. So we all learn how to approach women, by approaching women, trying different things to see what works. In the past, under a traditional system, that was easier since women were confined within gender stereotypes, so a system could be established. However, without that framework, everyone was an individual, and therefore, many approaches wouldn't work, but then, would work for some. Which meant that many guys would continue for years, to be shooting in the dark as to what might be useful for gaining the attention of women.

I could continue writing about the enormous power that women have in society, due to their ability to decide whether they're interested or not. Or how they've established themselves as sex symbols (instagram, camgirls, modelling etc), and hold the double standard, not to be treated as sex objects.. while benefiting from the social perception of physical beauty (combined with fashion)... but...

There's little point. I've seen this on a few threads recently, where there is no acknowledgment about the place that women have in society (in reality)... except when it comes to excusing them from their active role in how society has developed. Good and bad. Just the reinforcement of the perception of women as being victims of male aggression, and sexism...

FileNotFound

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I feel like I was conditioned to push boundaries growing up. Guys are supposed to make all the first moves. Girls are supposed to be coy otherwise they're labelled "sluts".

This really is a conundrum, we are supposed to judge on more than looks, both male and female.

Yet now we have gone back to first glance...

Dating apps seem the only clean safe solution. Might as well keep this social distancing now.

begbysback

In between all the virtue signalling and political correctness on here we seem to have obtained some understanding that due to the social complexities the male/ female mating ritual is not as simple as some people think it is.

monkeysnapper

God its been so long since I was on the pull so to speak but from my vague memory we used to just talk and have a laugh and read the signs. Simple as that....

I know when I worked in a large company all them years ago employees would always flirt and talk and then when you were out weekend and you could see clearly she didn't have a boyfriend you'd test the waters. .... but again I'd definitely be able to judge if she was interested or not...

There was one girl I worked with who I very often used to go out of my way to talk to and was sure she fancied me and on a night out she made her move to ask me if I wanted a drink and at time I was with mates and played it cool so to speak ..... I really liked her to.... I pretty much gave her brush off..... God I was a total plonker....

Anyway that was enough for her.... it was a once of ticket and I blew it... there was no going back .... I appologised a few times and offered a night out to apologise and was given red card.

Housefree

It's a subjective experience so using the exact same approach with two different women can be perceived as both. Which brings in other factors like her mood at the time, she might decide to just shame you, calling you a creep. Depends how she feels

FileNotFound

Would it make sense to just turn it on its head.

Woman approach men from now on, that way everyone will be happy.

Stan27

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Meh. I remember when I was 19/20 and was just after getting my round in at the bar. I had an armload of pints. When I turned around, this wan who was probably in her 40s spotted her chance and planted me a smooch straight on the lips, and her & her mates burst out laughing. She was in bits too, I wouldn’t have been looking to shift her that night anyway.

It still never dawned on me to write #metoo on my bebo page. I was thinking “I hope the lads didn’t see that” and I looked across and they were in fits laughing.

I think losing that sort of banter in the social scene is a bad thing generally.

One of my friends worked in bars a few years back, and he did cocktail classes for hen nights etc.
Used to get his arse pinched, flirted with regurally. Didnt bother him, but if roles were reversed there would be war lol.

ancapailldorcha

I remain convinced that it's a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. I appreciate that dating does involve a degree of subtlety beyond the ken of many, myself very much included. However, a good rule of thumb is that if you're putting in all the effort then it's not worth it. It's a two person endeavour. Or more if that floats your boat.

In my experience, all that most women want regarding harassment is not to be catcalled, grabbed or leered at. Most women I've talked to about it have experienced these at some point in their lives and none of them started using language like patriarchy while doing so.

Personally, I'm in my thirties and have reached the conclusion that it's simply not worth the effort. Dating is the one thing that's too luck-based IMO for effort and dedication to get much results. For comparison, I enjoy complex strategy games. Over the weekend, I watched about 80 minutes of video on Youtube about the combat system in one of these games which is riddled with forumulae, modifiers & other bonuses. When explained, it's quite simple but there's a lot of it. With dating, nah. I've pretty much lost all interest at this stage.

It is really very simple.
Just don't act like a dick, basically.
Men making a big song and dance now saying they can't even approach women anymore! Such rubbish. What did they do up to now? I'm sure that the majority of men were not sexually harassing women, therefore why would they need to change anything?

Nothing has changed in society, treat all people with respect and there are no issues.
Don't even get.me.started on the rubbish, that women looking for equality has somehow changed the dating scene. It hasn't and if you would prefer women were treated like they were in the 50s, tough luck.