Line between flirting and harrasment?

nicholasIII

The Sarah Evards case and the question on Current Affairs made me think of this. Many posts were people saying that men should be aware of what they say/do around women as even well meaning mean can make women feel uncomfortable with their comments/behavior.

So I was wondering, since people expect men to be aware of how they treat women but at the same time expect men to approach women first, when is it okay to flirt with a women and when does it cross into unwanted behavior?

Sonics2k

It's perfectly simple. If they aren't interested, or show no interest, just leave and stop.

Super simple.

banie01

Sonics2k wrote: »

It's perfectly simple. If they aren't interested, or show no interest, just leave and stop.

Super simple.

It really, really is this simple.
If you are knocked back, that's it.
Leave it there.

Don't try persistence, don't try to win her over, don't try and be her white knight.
Be rational and leave her the fúck alone.

This is a person, not a game, persistence and grinding won't "win" but it will highlight you as a creep.

sydthebeat

If you can't recognise when the approach is unwanted, you shouldn't have approached in the first instance.

If you can recognise this, then the time to stop is when you recognise this.

It isn't rocket science

grassylawn

Use an incremental approach.

Make eye contact. If they respond positively...
Smile. If they respond positively...
Talk. If they respond positively...
Make physical contact. If they respond positively...
Kiss them.

Etc

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

It really, really is this simple.
If you are knocked back, that's it.
Leave it there.

Don't try persistence, don't try to win her over, don't try and be her white knight.
Be rational and leave her the fúck alone.

This is a person, not a game, persistence and grinding won't "win" but it will highlight you as a creep.

My wife turned me down 3 times before going on a date with me. She's still around and he have 2 kids.

grassylawn

grassylawn wrote: »

Use an incremental approach.

Make eye contact. If they respond positively...
Smile. If they respond positively...
Talk. If they respond positively...
Make physical contact. If they respond positively...
Kiss them.

Etc

Exactly. There's nothing sexier and more appealing than staring at a woman until she notices and then smiling at her

grassylawn

Lol

ancapailldorcha

It really isn't that difficult. If she isn't showing much of an interest then don't pursue it any further. The idea that persistence will yield results is Hollywood boll*cks.

banie01

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

My wife turned me down 3 times before going on a date with me. She's still around and he have 2 kids.

ACD answers this in pretty much the same vein I would.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It really isn't that difficult. If she isn't showing much of an interest then don't pursue it any further. The idea that persistence will yield results is Hollywood boll*cks.

But congrats, glad you and your Mrs have made it

ancapailldorcha

banie01 wrote: »

But congrats, glad you and your Mrs have made it

Nope. Still single.

Hoboo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Exactly. There's nothing sexier and more appealing than staring at a woman until she notices and then smiling at her

If you want that attention. Some people would call that creepy and harassment.

MrStuffins

grassylawn wrote: »

Use an incremental approach.

Make eye contact. If they respond positively...
Smile. If they respond positively...
Talk. If they respond positively...
Make physical contact. If they respond positively...
Kiss them.

Etc

This sounds like pick-up-artist rubbish to be honest.

banie01

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nope. Still single.

That's a result of my piss poor formatting
I meant that congrats for 9er.

Sorry

Nothing wrong with being single tho, clearly you aren't a hostage taker :pac:
Joking...

YellowFeather

Hoboo wrote: »

If you want that attention. Some people would call that creepy and harassment.

And so ends the human race.

God be with the days when we would just go out on the pull (men and women). A bit of chat, a dance and some fun. Now it seems like looking at somebody could be construed at harassment.

I think many of us have been groped on the dancefloor, but certainly didn’t go home traumatised.

It’s getting a bit much at this stage.

ancapailldorcha

banie01 wrote: »

That's a result of my piss poor formatting
I meant that congrats for 9er.

Sorry

Nothing wrong with being single tho, clearly you aren't a hostage taker :pac:
Joking...

No worries. It is what it is and I'm happy enough.

I work in a University though and even though it's majority female, I don't think it'd be worth the risk to mix dating and work.

MrStuffins

YellowFeather wrote: »

I think many of us have been groped on the dancefloor, but certainly didn’t go home traumatised.

It’s getting a bit much at this stage.

Wait, so what you're saying here is because you were groped on the dancefloor and didn't mind, you should be able to grope who you want and they shouldn't mind?

No, the default is don't grope anyone. It's not cool! I'm sure if someone groped your other half on a dance floor you'd feel differently about it

banie01

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No worries. It is what it is and I'm happy enough.

I work in a University though and even though it's majority female, I don't think it'd be worth the risk to mix dating and work.

Don't dip your pen in company ink is IMO good advice

That said, my current wife was a direct report of mine for a few years, but, we didn't date until about 3yrs after we'd finished working together.

listermint

YellowFeather wrote: »

And so ends the human race.

God be with the days when we would just go out on the pull (men and women). A bit of chat, a dance and some fun. Now it seems like looking at somebody could be construed at harassment.

I think many of us have been groped on the dancefloor, but certainly didn’t go home traumatised.

It’s getting a bit much at this stage.

Hi,

My name is hyperbole. Pleased to meet you.

Piollaire

Avoid it where she can report you to the HR Department.

ancapailldorcha

banie01 wrote: »

Don't dip your pen in company ink is IMO good advice

That said, my current wife was a direct report of mine for a few years, but, we didn't date until about 3yrs after we'd finished working together.

There was a nice French lady who used to pop in as she was a collaborator. Not often and I considered saying something but when I worked up the nerve, I got interrupted. Not the end of the world, like and on the whole it might have been better to, as you say, leave the ink alone.

TanookiMario

nicholasIII wrote: »

The Sarah Evards case and the question on Current Affairs made me think of this. Many posts were people saying that men should be aware of what they say/do around women as even well meaning mean can make women feel uncomfortable with their comments/behavior.

So I was wondering, since people expect men to be aware of how they treat women but at the same time expect men to approach women first, when is it okay to flirt with a women and when does it cross into unwanted behavior?

You'd know as soon as you see their reaction, I would think.

Saying "hello" to someone wouldn't be harassment but continuing on when they haven't really shown any interest in talking would be getting into uncomfortable territory.

When women share their experiences of being harassed it generally does tend to be on the more obvious end of the scale. Some drunk guy making comments to them on the bus or across the street.

You won't really see too many women using an example of a man saying hello to them in a bar.

Although there could be a valid question raised about how these surveys etc are done. Are leading questions being asked and are responses being logged as harassment when they might not be?

I doubt if you asked women about their experiences with harassment you'd get too many saying that the awkward guy in work asking them out for dinner that one time was harassment. Most would give pretty clear cut and obvious examples.

Don't be a creep and assume every time a woman is nice to you that means they want to have sex.

Most women are perfectly capable of indicating when they're romantically interested. You need to better learn body language, if you cannot see it.

This is a good clip:

YellowFeather

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wait, so what you're saying here is because you were groped on the dancefloor and didn't mind, you should be able to grope who you want and they shouldn't mind?

No, the default is don't grope anyone. It's not cool! I'm sure if someone groped your other half on a dance floor you'd feel differently about it

Pretty sure that wasn’t what I said, but your interpretation is interesting enough.

No, what I’m saying is that,
IMHO of course, this is getting blown out of proportion when guys are afraid to approach a girl for fear of being perceived, or perceiving themselves as harassing them.

MrStuffins

YellowFeather wrote: »

Pretty sure that wasn’t what I said, but your interpretation is interesting enough.

No, what I’m saying is that,
IMHO of course, this is getting blown out of proportion when guys are afraid to approach a girl for fear of being perceived, or perceiving themselves as harassing them.

But you mentioned groping. Where do you stand on groping?

From your post above, you've been groped before and didn't mind it so it's ok. Am I misinterpreting?

nicholasIII

TanookiMario wrote: »

You'd know as soon as you see their reaction, I would think.

Saying "hello" to someone wouldn't be harassment but continuing on when they haven't really shown any interest in talking would be getting into uncomfortable territory.

When women share their experiences of being harassed it generally does tend to be on the more obvious end of the scale. Some drunk guy making comments to them on the bus or across the street.

You won't really see too many women using an example of a man saying hello to them in a bar.

Although there could be a valid question raised about how these surveys etc are done. Are leading questions being asked and are responses being logged as harassment when they might not be?

I doubt if you asked women about their experiences with harassment you'd get too many saying that the awkward guy in work asking them out for dinner that one time was harassment. Most would give pretty clear cut and obvious examples.

What about flirting with a nurse/female doctor? I was treated by a few nice nurses in Beaumont and decided to add them on Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat. Some weren't too pleased by it but most were okay.

YellowFeather

MrStuffins wrote: »

But you mentioned groping. Where do you stand on groping?

From your post above, you've been groped before and didn't mind it so it's ok. Am I misinterpreting?

Many times. It doesn’t make it ok. Of course don’t be a dick and grab somebody’s arse when dancing.

However, this has not sent most people into therapy. It is actually scary how quickly people are accepting this new idea that everybody will be a gentleman or gentlewoman and stuff like this -not only won’t happen - but will make us afraid of approaching other humans for fear of accusations.

YellowFeather

YellowFeather wrote: »

And so ends the human race.

God be with the days when we would just go out on the pull (men and women). A bit of chat, a dance and some fun. Now it seems like looking at somebody could be construed at harassment.

I think many of us have been groped on the dancefloor, but certainly didn’t go home traumatised.

It’s getting a bit much at this stage.

I don't like being 'groped' anywhere by people I don't know.
So you think I'm the one with a problem?

Kiith

Its very easy lads.

• Demonstrate value
• Engage physically
• Nurture dependence
• Neglect emotionally
• Inspire hope
• Separate entirely

In all seriousness, it usually is pretty obvious.

banie01

This is a Mr Feg thread isn't it?

bucketybuck

nicholasIII wrote: »

What about flirting with a nurse/female doctor? I was treated by a few nice nurses in Beaumont and decided to add them on Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat. Some weren't too pleased by it but most were okay.

Rule of thumb, you need extra perspective when flirting with somebody who isn't allowed to tell you to **** off.

The shop assistant who smiled and said hello, the nurse who has to look after you, they are just doing their jobs and it would be creepy to convince yourself it was anything more than that.

nicholasIII

bucketybuck wrote: »

Rule of thumb, you need extra perspective when flirting with somebody who isn't allowed to tell you to **** off.

The shop assistant who smiled and said hello, the nurse who has to look after you, they are just doing their jobs and it would be creepy to convince yourself it was anything more than that.

I agree...

Just out of curiosity, have you ever appeared on another forum? Preferably the SDMB? I remember reading a post that was eerily similar to this one.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Rule of thumb, you need extra perspective when flirting with somebody who isn't allowed to tell you to **** off...they are just doing their jobs and it would be creepy to convince yourself it was anything more than that.

Woah - hold on a minute there - there's no need to bring a chap's wife into this.

YellowFeather

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't like being 'groped' anywhere by people I don't know.
So you think I'm the one with a problem?

Hey - no. Not at all do I think you are the one with a problem. Not sure why you would think that.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Meh. I remember when I was 19/20 and was just after getting my round in at the bar. I had an armload of pints. When I turned around, this wan who was probably in her 40s spotted her chance and planted me a smooch straight on the lips, and her & her mates burst out laughing. She was in bits too, I wouldn’t have been looking to shift her that night anyway.

It still never dawned on me to write #metoo on my bebo page. I was thinking “I hope the lads didn’t see that” and I looked across and they were in fits laughing.

I think losing that sort of banter in the social scene is a bad thing generally.

JoChervil

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

My wife turned me down 3 times before going on a date with me. She's still around and he have 2 kids.

But I am sure, she was only turning down going on a date at first. But she left other ways of communication open. I mean she kept communicated with you friendly. Otherwise you wouldn't have a chance to ask her again.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be a creep and assume every time a woman is nice to you that means they want to have sex.

Most women are perfectly capable of indicating when they're romantically interested. You need to better learn body language, if you cannot see it.

You've clearly never watched Blind Date. Some of the "yes I'd like to see him again" and "no just friends" ones are astonishing.

JoChervil

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Meh. I remember when I was 19/20 and was just after getting my round in at the bar. I had an armload of pints. When I turned around, this wan who was probably in her 40s spotted her chance and planted me a smooch straight on the lips, and her & her mates burst out laughing. She was in bits too, I wouldn’t have been looking to shift her that night anyway.

It still never dawned on me to write #metoo on my bebo page. I was thinking “I hope the lads didn’t see that” and I looked across and they were in fits laughing.

I think losing that sort of banter in the social scene is a bad thing generally.

Yuck!

Leg End Reject

YellowFeather wrote: »

And so ends the human race.

God be with the days when we would just go out on the pull (men and women). A bit of chat, a dance and some fun. Now it seems like looking at somebody could be construed at harassment.

I think many of us have been groped on the dancefloor, but certainly didn’t go home traumatised.

It’s getting a bit much at this stage.

Yes, and touching someone's arm, sneaking at look at certain parts of their body etc. is a natural part of flirting and attraction.

If all this gains traction we'll all end up as bitter, frustrated incels.

Leg End Reject

banie01 wrote: »

This is a Mr Feg thread isn't it?

The nurse and doctor post confirmed it for me, it was posted before.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It really isn't that difficult. If she isn't showing much of an interest then don't pursue it any further. The idea that persistence will yield results is Hollywood boll*cks.

It really isnt

Mimon

Jaysus, things need to change in terms of women getting harassed etc- i.e the rules of the "game" need to be changed to stop this.

Human nature of course there is a total over reaction where the rules of the "game" are on the road to be becoming so strict that there is no game anymore.

Social media age all common sense and middle ground thinking has disappeared, sad to see.

Kiith

Kiith wrote: »

Its very easy lads.

• Demonstrate value
• Engage physically
• Nurture dependence
• Neglect emotionally
• Inspire hope
• Separate entirely

In all seriousness, it usually is pretty obvious.

It's the implication

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You've clearly never watched Blind Date.

Correct, I have better things to do then watch that sh1t.

So, to confirm... are we categorically ruling out clubbing over the head and dragging back to the cave apartment? Asking for a friend...

MrStuffins

Deleted User wrote: »

So, to confirm... are we categorically ruling out clubbing over the head and dragging back to the cave apartment? Asking for a friend...

From the looks of the thread, some wouldn't.

"Sure I remember once a woman on the dancefloor clubbed me over the head and dragged me back to her cave and I didn't mind it........... so that kind of behaviour is fine if I do it to women. It's banter!

The fact is, some fellas know no other way but to push themselves on women, pestering them in the hope they'll capitulate.



Sad, really.

grassylawn

Kiith wrote: »

Its very easy lads.

• Demonstrate value
• Engage physically
• Nurture dependence
• Neglect emotionally
• Inspire hope
• Separate entirely

In all seriousness, it usually is pretty obvious.

Excellent IASiP reference.

Mimon

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact is, some fellas know no other way but to push themselves on women, pestering them in the hope they'll capitulate.

Sad, really.

Agree but now the guys with the softer approach are going to be tarred with the same brush the way things are going. Needs to be a balance and things are going too extreme the other way.

Mimon

Mimon wrote: »

Agree but now the guys with the softer approach are going to be tarred with the same brush the way things are going. Needs to be a balance and things are going too extreme the other way.

No, treating women you fancy with respect is all that is required. It's really that simple.

Crazy, I know.