Suckler replacement strategy

Hard Knocks

tanko wrote: »

I put a couple of yearling bullocks with the cows, find them great for heat detection.

Bullocks can be iffy
Had better success with freemartin heifers

AckwelFoley

If AI is an issue because of limited walks through the herd, then the other is a worse option if there is a high risk of redwater, because the lack of immunity of bought in animals means you're waiting for them to take a piss

The price of the animal you sell at the mart won't be as good if you're breeding from your own bull.. unless you can afford the price of a high quality bull for just 12 cows

The other thing is, we always cover heifers with an Angus and then we use different bulls on different cows depending on how good at calving they are.

A bull doesn't give you those options unless he has an interchangeable flute

Limestone Cowboy

AckwelFoley wrote: »

If AI is an issue because of limited walks through the herd, then the other is a worse option if there is a high risk of redwater, because the lack of immunity of bought in animals means you're waiting for them to take a piss

The price of the animal you sell at the mart won't be as good if you're breeding from your own bull.. unless you can afford the price of a high quality bull for just 12 cows

The other thing is, we always cover heifers with an Angus and then we use different bulls on different cows depending on how good at calving they are.

A bull doesn't give you those options unless he has an interchangeable flute

You'd buy a fine well bred bull for 1500 if you could see past the feeding, any amount of 4-5 year old perfectly good bulls sold for cull price as well. The country is overran with pedigree bulls. To be honest with a small herd you would be as well off but in your replacements in calf rather than bolloxin with keeping separate bundles around the place. One group to herd, move, feed, whatever has to be done with them. Simple system and some chance of having an even bunch of calves to sell. If you buy cattle out of the right place they won't get redwater.

Dunedin

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I could never understand the big push for using AI in sucklers, I have my own tank here and have the training done and nearly went mad the couple of years I was trying to AI them. I thought it added a huge extra workload for not much extra return. Granted my place is a bit scattered but if I was working off farm it would definitely be a non runner for me. I know it suits some and some people just don't like having a bull around and are really into the breeding and stuff but I wouldn't be pushing anyone towards it either.

Was always AI here as the father wouldn’t entertain a bull but bull now here for last 13 years and wouldn’t consider going back to AI ever again.

The one thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is the work in getting the cows in every time they’re on. Unless your land is centred around a yard or pen as it can be a nightmare to get sucklers in during the summer. And the added stress doesn’t help the cow holding either (or do much for farmer either).

A good stock bull will more than compensate as AI will result in more empties and AI will not make up for that.

kollegeknight

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

You'd buy a fine well bred bull for 1500 if you could see past the feeding, any amount of 4-5 year old perfectly good bulls sold for cull price as well. The country is overran with pedigree bulls. To be honest with a small herd you would be as well off but in your replacements in calf rather than bolloxin with keeping separate bundles around the place. One group to herd, move, feed, whatever has to be done with them. Simple system and some chance of having an even bunch of calves to sell. If you buy cattle out of the right place they won't get redwater.

That’s what works for me. All together.
I bought two spx from west Clare two years ago aged 14months and had no issue with red water. The bull came from abbeyfeale and same as. Never dosed them, just watched them.

The spx just didn’t work out due to needing sections. They never really grew in size. Rookie mistake-,8 didn’t see the cows when buying them.

SuperTeeJay

Hard Knocks wrote: »

If you could look at the early morning and late evening you would have best chance
Doing AI here too, used patches / tail paint which are all very good but when checking stock once a day you can’t tell when the cow was mounted

Hard to beat a few early strong bull calves.They will find out the cows easily.Have never tried patches or tail paint either.
Never had a bull here.My father Ai'ing since early 80's and works well but you need a good Ai man too and it's time consuming but a bucket of meal to tempt them in helps.

AckwelFoley

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If you buy cattle out of the right place they won't get redwater.

What do you mean?

893bet

AckwelFoley wrote: »

What do you mean?

Buy from an area with natural immunity ie locally

Who2

There seems to be a huge emphasis on buying in value here when it comes to suckling, I’d agree to a point but I know from my own place here I was always about trying to get numbers built and I bred from a lot of dairy bred stock and animals that just weren’t good enough. If I was to do it again I’d push more for a better quality animal and less numbers from the start and try and get producing the right calf from the start. Young good quality cows can be got for 1600-1800 if you pooch around long enough, you’ll have a calf on the ground and ready for sale at the end of the year which should cover the half of it and a cow worth the rest . Trying to breed up with a 50% increase in numbers is going to be a long slog when culls and cows that go wrong are accounted for. It may be just as well off to bite the bullet and buy in.
If it’s the cost of them is an issue a lad once pointed out to me that if it doesn’t make sense to borrow for them then it doesn’t make sense to do it in the first place. It may seem harsh but at least you’ve money turning fairly quickly and if they go right you a couple of years ahead.

Dunedin

The cow is 50% of the job and farmers when using AI think that even if it’s a rig of a cow, just cos it’s AI you’re guaranteed a good calf. Also, farmers still veer towards easy calving even with AI on bigger roomy cows which will in the most part bring a calf which would be no better than your average stock bull.

AI have some fantastic bulls but you need to use them to suit your cows. And you have to factor in your personal set up in getting cows in and catching them on heat versus a bull that you may never see him bull one but he’ll have them all done.

Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

patsy_mccabe

Dunedin wrote: »

.....
Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

Yer man must have raised him catholic.

kollegeknight

Dunedin wrote: »

The cow is 50% of the job and farmers when using AI think that even if it’s a rig of a cow, just cos it’s AI you’re guaranteed a good calf. Also, farmers still veer towards easy calving even with AI on bigger roomy cows which will in the most part bring a calf which would be no better than your average stock bull.

AI have some fantastic bulls but you need to use them to suit your cows. And you have to factor in your personal set up in getting cows in and catching them on heat versus a bull that you may never see him bull one but he’ll have them all done.

Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

Current bull is exactly like that. You never see him mounting anything. One year, everything was scanned Empty, got awful nervous. Vet came back a week or two later and everything in calf in a matter of days.

Hard Knocks

kollegeknight wrote: »

Current bull is exactly like that. You never see him mounting anything. One year, everything was scanned Empty, got awful nervous. Vet came back a week or two later and everything in calf in a matter of days.

Had that too, most will show from 30 days but I prefer to go 40-50 days from last serve
Scanning early lets you see what needs attention but you also run the risk of a miscarriage

Dunedin

Dunedin wrote: »

The cow is 50% of the job and farmers when using AI think that even if it’s a rig of a cow, just cos it’s AI you’re guaranteed a good calf. Also, farmers still veer towards easy calving even with AI on bigger roomy cows which will in the most part bring a calf which would be no better than your average stock bull.

AI have some fantastic bulls but you need to use them to suit your cows. And you have to factor in your personal set up in getting cows in and catching them on heat versus a bull that you may never see him bull one but he’ll have them all done.

Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

80% of breeding happens at night