Suckler replacement strategy

kollegeknight

Hi folks.
Usually carry about 13 cows on the farm. This year I will have 9 calving.

The age profile is increasing, the oldest cow I have is 16 and the youngest is 4.

I’ve about 2/3 weanlings from last year that I think might work out as replacement. So I need to look at the short fall- only 1 of them is a 5star (off dairy herd) and the rest are 3 stars.


Relatively time poor at moment with work and 3 young children.

We have risk of red water on the land and the herd has a natural immunity as not bought in.

Contemplating bucket rearing a few but only did that as a young lad so I don’t think I’m set up this year for it.

My minimum stocking rate is 4.5.

Part of me is saying tip away with a replacement or two until the farm is in my own name and by then, the lads will be a bit bigger.

Land is very poor and suckler cow will rear a calf but difficult/impossible to finish cattle.

What are people doing from a replacement point of view?

Bass Reeves

What type of cows do you have. You cod buy bucket fed weanlings in the autumn. You might even be better sourcing last autumn born calves as they be a stronger heifer at 27-30months calving. If you watched some of the marts at present you might come across some suitable ones in the runners section.

Keeping your own is only possible where you are changing your bull or using AI

kollegeknight

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What type of cows do you have. You cod buy bucket fed weanlings in the autumn. You might even be better sourcing last autumn born calves as they be a stronger heifer at 27-30months calving. If you watched some of the marts at present you might come across some suitable ones in the runners section.

Keeping your own is only possible where you are changing your bull or using AI

Limousin based cattle. Small %of bb mixed on with Fr off the old dairy herd but that is nearly gone. Great cattle. No cost in keeping them outside of usual dosing and silage.

The bull I have is 7 now but he is going well and temperament is good so I might try hold onto him for a year or two more to see how things fair out. He covers me for the genomics scheme.

mr.stonewall

Option of fixed time ai on the heifers to an easy calving Angus year 1. This would be a big help on the time front as they will be served together and calve around the same time. Also gives the option of picking some of the better cows to Ai. I know that you are teaching so this should allow you some time in June to organise the Ftai. Will help to tighten the calving spread. Im at the same game and its as easy to watch 4 or 5 cows due to calve as 1. Half thinking of getting rid of the bull here and go all FTAI. The cost of it is well and truly saved with the time saved and quality of calves.

Bass Reeves

kollegeknight wrote: »

Limousin based cattle. Small %of bb mixed on with Fr off the old dairy herd but that is nearly gone. Great cattle. No cost in keeping them outside of usual dosing and silage.

The bull I have is 7 now but he is going well and temperament is good so I might try hold onto him for a year or two more to see how things fair out. He covers me for the genomics scheme.

It not really an option to keep your own heifers so. That bull if quite and qualifying you for genomics you should hold on to him. He could be good for another 4-5 years maybe more.

You have a few option but stock prices are strong this year. However the push for 5* heifers is not as hot. At suckling you are looking at keeping your costs low. The more continental breeding in a cow the more maintenance, the heavier the cow the longer she will be housed.

If you have an hour or two now and again long onto LSL marts, and open a few marts. Just then open the auction,-Cathelog and last sale from drop down box. You can scan through breeds, prices view the animals in the ring etc. Look at incalf cow and heifers just to give you an idea of options

I think I be looking at. Something off dairy breeding maybe an LM or CH heifer runner. However if you really try you will pick up a few I calf heifers 900-1100 euro. Some may not be calving until April. That may suit you. Saw a nice LMX cross heifer sold for 950 euro looked square enough. I think it was in Listowel.

Kilrush mart maybe the place for you to pick up stuff like that. It a matter of patience with the bidding

Bass Reeves

In a way it was a pity you did not go to the Pallaskenry Suckler herd dispersal there was late March/ April calving HEx and AA incalf Heifers sold for sub 1k they would have been 5* mostly.

When do you start to calf down

kollegeknight

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It not really an option to keep your own heifers so. That bull if quite and qualifying you for genomics you should hold on to him. He could be good for another 4-5 years maybe more.

You have a few option but stock prices are strong this year. However the push for 5* heifers is not as hot. At suckling you are looking at keeping your costs low. The more continental breeding in a cow the more maintenance, the heavier the cow the longer she will be housed.

If you have an hour or two now and again long onto LSL marts, and open a few marts. Just then open the auction,-Cathelog and last sale from drop down box. You can scan through breeds, prices view the animals in the ring etc. Look at incalf cow and heifers just to give you an idea of options

I think I be looking at. Something off dairy breeding maybe an LM or CH heifer runner. However if you really try you will pick up a few I calf heifers 900-1100 euro. Some may not be calving until April. That may suit you. Saw a nice LMX cross heifer sold for 950 euro looked square enough. I think it was in Listowel.

Kilrush mart maybe the place for you to pick up stuff like that. It a matter of patience with the bidding

I never thought of kilrush. Might be the right job.
I had thought of the dispersal sale but I reckoned the cattle were too used to nice land.

Bass Reeves

kollegeknight wrote: »

I never thought of kilrush. Might be the right job.
I had thought of the dispersal sale but I reckoned the cattle were too used to nice land.

Saw a nice bunch of 5 HE heifers 300 kgs sold for 570 euro last Wednesday. They were lit 34. They have been fit to bull by mid June. Trick with a bunch of heifers like that inject them to synchronise and leave them off with the bull watch them then for repeats or even scan them next Autumn. I presume you LMX bull is fairly easy calving if you are anxious to keep him. You could also AI to an AA or easier calving LM. If you used an LM you could keep the heifer calves replacements if they looked good enough

Albert Johnson

The biggest problem with buying in cattle will be there resistance or lack of it too red water. Thankfully it's not an issue locally but I'm told that in certain land it's impossible to bring in stock from outside due to them being susceptible to it.

If your already time poor with work and family commitments and have enough livestock units to cover the requirements then I'd just work with what you have tbh. Do you really want to be mixing milk replacer twice a day and minding calves alongside everything else? It's bound to be a testing time in the teaching profession atm and you have your own family as well, I'm not telling you your business simply giving my opinion.

I'd recommend working with your own stock and keep whatever of your own heifers are suitable provided you can keep them away from the bull until there ready. You'll not find a year passing and hopefully you'll be in a better position as regards time and stock. Failing that I'd enquire if there was anything local for sale that suited or try to buy a runner type heifer or 2 to put with your own but that's more complications.

If it wasn't for the risk of red water I'd chance buying a springer or better still a calved outfit but it's not worth taking the chance when there's a known issue. Tip away at what your and you'll not go far wrong imo.

893bet

Worth AI a one or two every year to a high replacement index AI bull.

Then pray for a heifer.

blue5000

You could write down the dates of when cows are bulling, then watch them 3 weeks later and ai them. Suckler heifers can be difficult to ai even with ftai. Only do one round of ai then let the bull off.

kollegeknight

893bet wrote: »

Worth AI a one or two every year to a high replacement index AI bull.

Then pray for a heifer.

That’s what I was thinking myself. And was my original strategy but i used the red Angus ZLL and ended up with all bulls and worthless.

Regarding the red water, the vet treats those who have no immunity prior to them getting it. Think it has to done every 6 weeks.

I was thinking of a cow or two that way and the bull would be replaced anyway in a couple of years.

grassroot1

But in calved heifers with a heifer at foot and treat for redwater

Bass Reeves

On the redwater, I have heard that if you use Ivermectins that it helps a lot.aa it kills the sucking lice it prevents sevear infection. Then just have the treatment imizole ready to get to f one comes up with redwater. T
You have to build up immunity in the animal

Limestone Cowboy

If you want to avoid redwater Kollegeknight anything out of North Clare announced as Limestone will be dead sound. Ballyvaughan, fanore, kilfenora, Carron, kilnaboy, Corofin. The vast majority of cattle out of that area will be immune to it. West Clare is very dodgy.

kollegeknight

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If you want to avoid redwater Kollegeknight anything out of North Clare announced as Limestone will be dead sound. Ballyvaughan, fanore, kilfenora, Carron, kilnaboy, Corofin. The vast majority of cattle out of that area will be immune to it. West Clare is very dodgy.

Thanks for that. I always thought of you bought locally, they would have an immunity to it. We have been lucky here and nothing with it in 25 years. Neighbour has it all the time as he is always buying in cows

Limestone Cowboy

kollegeknight wrote: »

Thanks for that. I always thought of you bought locally, they would have an immunity to it. We have been lucky here and nothing with it in 25 years. Neighbour has it all the time as he is always buying in cows

Ya we have the same problem. I only ever had 1 case of it because I'd be careful enough where I would buy out of most of the time. It was well drilled into me when I was younger.

49801

AI what you can and cross your fingers for heifers.
Keep your bull though to catch what you don’t get.

Gudstock

We rarely buy in here, have had redwater losses in the past.
Have dosed a bought in bull that came from good land for redwater. Seriously long withdrawal on it from what I remember.
Most bulls come from local enough herds with heavy ground too so we assume immunity with them.
We have a small herd, 26 calving down this year, a few years ago was probably at 18. I have gone with simmental stock bull for 4 years, taking the hit on weanling bull prices but growing female numbers and replacing poor and old cows with these homebred Sim heifers. Of course the first Sim bull was very inconsistent calving wise with some very very bad issues. Now replaced with a homebred one that is doing the job. This year I am AI'ing as much as possible with more terminal bulls and use the sim bull to mop up and keep calving period tight.

If you go with buying in replacements buy local and maybe aim for the light runner types if you have the land and time, keep them dosed, and let them grow into themselves.

kollegeknight

Gudstock wrote: »

We rarely buy in here, have had redwater losses in the past.
Have dosed a bought in bull that came from good land for redwater. Seriously long withdrawal on it from what I remember.
Most bulls come from local enough herds with heavy ground too so we assume immunity with them.
We have a small herd, 26 calving down this year, a few years ago was probably at 18. I have gone with simmental stock bull for 4 years, taking the hit on weanling bull prices but growing female numbers and replacing poor and old cows with these homebred Sim heifers. Of course the first Sim bull was very inconsistent calving wise with some very very bad issues. Now replaced with a homebred one that is doing the job. This year I am AI'ing as much as possible with more terminal bulls and use the sim bull to mop up and keep calving period tight.

If you go with buying in replacements buy local and maybe aim for the light runner types if you have the land and time, keep them dosed, and let them grow into themselves.

That’s some very good advice gudstock. Thank you.

AckwelFoley

We have used AI for the last 32 years. We haven't bought in a single beast in 25 years.

Angus x or lim x cows mostly.

With such a long AI genetic history, we have got phone calls twice from the department / teagasc looking for beast x y or z to purchase for their research farm

kollegeknight

AckwelFoley wrote: »

We have used AI for the last 32 years. We haven't bought in a single beast in 25 years.

Angus x or lim x cows mostly.

With such a long AI genetic history, we have got phone calls twice from the department / teagasc looking for beast x y or z to purchase for their research farm

And how do you catch them in heat? Or are you around them all the time? Or synchronise them?

Hard Knocks

kollegeknight wrote: »

And how do you catch them in heat? Or are you around them all the time? Or synchronise them?

If you could look at the early morning and late evening you would have best chance
Doing AI here too, used patches / tail paint which are all very good but when checking stock once a day you can’t tell when the cow was mounted

Bass Reeves

AI is grand if you are at home a lot. But on the average Suckler farm that is usual not possible. Unless your calving pattern is very tight AI will tend to lengthen the pattern further. Another issue is the need to keep cattle separate if you intend to breed like this. Remember as well any heifer bred now from AI will not calf down until 2024.

KK has said his he is down to 9 cows (optimum stock level 12-14) with an age profile of 4-16 years suggesting an average age of 10 years. His minimum to draw ANC is 5. IMO while AI may be a longterm goal at present he needs to put a plan in place to get 3-5 calves in next two years. It highly unlikely he will breed 5 suitable heifers in two seasons not to mind one using AI.

His options are buying in yearling heifers or incalf/ calves down heifers or cows. Redwater is an issue but it will not change the issue this year or next. Buying a replacement incalf will cost minimum 1-1.4K but you will have a calf at the end of the season hopefully. Buying a replacement 300 kg HEX heifer to bull will cost 580-650 euro. However these will climb in price in next 2-3 weeks opportunity time with either option is limited

49801

kollegeknight wrote: »

And how do you catch them in heat? Or are you around them all the time? Or synchronise them?

AI does mean you must check early morning and dusk times each day for the few weeks so you can have them AIed the following 12hrs. Taking good notes so as to be able to know if already served etc really helps. Plus to confirm not in heat 3weeks later so as to know the straw took. Aids like tail paint and scratch cards help too
Hard part I found is telling difference between the animal that is actually in heat versus one mounting as a follower.

So even if OP did AI for first 3-4wks and let the bull in after that it would be good start and build confidence in it when you see the calves in 12months time.

One bit of advice I was given is stick to the more standard straws for first while. No point in expensive straws. The genetic merit of the standard straws is so good you don’t need to be spending money on expensive straws especially if does not take. Do pick straws for maternal traits and that will suit your cows.

TooOldBoots

Best option would be to buy young cows, you can often pick up young cows with calf at foot and back in calf again. A young cow to me is one that's less than 5 year old.
If you want to be really cheap you can pick up empty cows in spring that for whatever reason lost the calf.

tanko

49801 wrote: »

AI does mean you must check early morning and dusk times each day for the few weeks so you can have them AIed the following 12hrs. Taking good notes so as to be able to know if already served etc really helps. Plus to confirm not in heat 3weeks later so as to know the straw took. Aids like tail paint and scratch cards help too
Hard part I found is telling difference between the animal that is actually in heat versus one mounting as a follower.

So even if OP did AI for first 3-4wks and let the bull in after that it would be good start and build confidence in it when you see the calves in 12months time.

One bit of advice I was given is stick to the more standard straws for first while. No point in expensive straws. The genetic merit of the standard straws is so good you don’t need to be spending money on expensive straws especially if does not take. Do pick straws for maternal traits and that will suit your cows.

I put a couple of yearling bullocks with the cows, find them great for heat detection.

Bass Reeves

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Best option would be to buy young cows, you can often pick up young cows with calf at foot and back in calf again. A young cow to me is one that's less than 5 year old.
If you want to be really cheap you can pick up empty cows in spring that for whatever reason lost the calf.

I would not buy empty cows, you want to be very lucky a cow that is empty could go empty the next year or the year after.

Limestone Cowboy

I could never understand the big push for using AI in sucklers, I have my own tank here and have the training done and nearly went mad the couple of years I was trying to AI them. I thought it added a huge extra workload for not much extra return. Granted my place is a bit scattered but if I was working off farm it would definitely be a non runner for me. I know it suits some and some people just don't like having a bull around and are really into the breeding and stuff but I wouldn't be pushing anyone towards it either.

Albert Johnson

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would not buy empty cows, you want to be very lucky a cow that is empty could go empty the next year or the year after.

I work with a man that has a big run of middling type land and outwinters everything. He usually buys young empty cows, AA, SH, blue grey ect and puts them straight with the CH bull. This cuts down on the stock groups compared to running replacements and wintering them before they're strong enough to bull and means he doesn't need to use A.I. or an easier calving bull on the heifers.

He'd be a good man to check udders, look for any sign of them being sectioned or stitched and any other apparent issues. From what I see for everyone of them that goes well, takes the bull and calves down there's another one that won't go incalf or has some other issues. Unless you knew the history of the cow it's a gamble buying those types, some of them might have lost a calf, wouldn't take the bull etc but others have bigger problems.

TooOldBoots

Can only talk for myself but I've picked up a good few empty cows in spring and let them off with the bull. An odd one may not go in calf due to whatever reason but 95% of them do. The ones that are empty in September are usually good enough for the factory anyway so off they go.
Some of the best bargains I've gotten include pedigree lim cows for less than 800, super cows.
The most memorable was two heX cows, purchased in March, owner could not guarantee them not in calf 450 and 600 euros, Both of them landed smashing charolais bull calves the first week of June. I sold the two calves as runners the week before Christmas and they made 1050.

Hard Knocks

tanko wrote: »

I put a couple of yearling bullocks with the cows, find them great for heat detection.

Bullocks can be iffy
Had better success with freemartin heifers

AckwelFoley

If AI is an issue because of limited walks through the herd, then the other is a worse option if there is a high risk of redwater, because the lack of immunity of bought in animals means you're waiting for them to take a piss

The price of the animal you sell at the mart won't be as good if you're breeding from your own bull.. unless you can afford the price of a high quality bull for just 12 cows

The other thing is, we always cover heifers with an Angus and then we use different bulls on different cows depending on how good at calving they are.

A bull doesn't give you those options unless he has an interchangeable flute

Limestone Cowboy

AckwelFoley wrote: »

If AI is an issue because of limited walks through the herd, then the other is a worse option if there is a high risk of redwater, because the lack of immunity of bought in animals means you're waiting for them to take a piss

The price of the animal you sell at the mart won't be as good if you're breeding from your own bull.. unless you can afford the price of a high quality bull for just 12 cows

The other thing is, we always cover heifers with an Angus and then we use different bulls on different cows depending on how good at calving they are.

A bull doesn't give you those options unless he has an interchangeable flute

You'd buy a fine well bred bull for 1500 if you could see past the feeding, any amount of 4-5 year old perfectly good bulls sold for cull price as well. The country is overran with pedigree bulls. To be honest with a small herd you would be as well off but in your replacements in calf rather than bolloxin with keeping separate bundles around the place. One group to herd, move, feed, whatever has to be done with them. Simple system and some chance of having an even bunch of calves to sell. If you buy cattle out of the right place they won't get redwater.

Dunedin

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I could never understand the big push for using AI in sucklers, I have my own tank here and have the training done and nearly went mad the couple of years I was trying to AI them. I thought it added a huge extra workload for not much extra return. Granted my place is a bit scattered but if I was working off farm it would definitely be a non runner for me. I know it suits some and some people just don't like having a bull around and are really into the breeding and stuff but I wouldn't be pushing anyone towards it either.

Was always AI here as the father wouldn’t entertain a bull but bull now here for last 13 years and wouldn’t consider going back to AI ever again.

The one thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is the work in getting the cows in every time they’re on. Unless your land is centred around a yard or pen as it can be a nightmare to get sucklers in during the summer. And the added stress doesn’t help the cow holding either (or do much for farmer either).

A good stock bull will more than compensate as AI will result in more empties and AI will not make up for that.

kollegeknight

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

You'd buy a fine well bred bull for 1500 if you could see past the feeding, any amount of 4-5 year old perfectly good bulls sold for cull price as well. The country is overran with pedigree bulls. To be honest with a small herd you would be as well off but in your replacements in calf rather than bolloxin with keeping separate bundles around the place. One group to herd, move, feed, whatever has to be done with them. Simple system and some chance of having an even bunch of calves to sell. If you buy cattle out of the right place they won't get redwater.

That’s what works for me. All together.
I bought two spx from west Clare two years ago aged 14months and had no issue with red water. The bull came from abbeyfeale and same as. Never dosed them, just watched them.

The spx just didn’t work out due to needing sections. They never really grew in size. Rookie mistake-,8 didn’t see the cows when buying them.

SuperTeeJay

Hard Knocks wrote: »

If you could look at the early morning and late evening you would have best chance
Doing AI here too, used patches / tail paint which are all very good but when checking stock once a day you can’t tell when the cow was mounted

Hard to beat a few early strong bull calves.They will find out the cows easily.Have never tried patches or tail paint either.
Never had a bull here.My father Ai'ing since early 80's and works well but you need a good Ai man too and it's time consuming but a bucket of meal to tempt them in helps.

AckwelFoley

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If you buy cattle out of the right place they won't get redwater.

What do you mean?

893bet

AckwelFoley wrote: »

What do you mean?

Buy from an area with natural immunity ie locally

Who2

There seems to be a huge emphasis on buying in value here when it comes to suckling, I’d agree to a point but I know from my own place here I was always about trying to get numbers built and I bred from a lot of dairy bred stock and animals that just weren’t good enough. If I was to do it again I’d push more for a better quality animal and less numbers from the start and try and get producing the right calf from the start. Young good quality cows can be got for 1600-1800 if you pooch around long enough, you’ll have a calf on the ground and ready for sale at the end of the year which should cover the half of it and a cow worth the rest . Trying to breed up with a 50% increase in numbers is going to be a long slog when culls and cows that go wrong are accounted for. It may be just as well off to bite the bullet and buy in.
If it’s the cost of them is an issue a lad once pointed out to me that if it doesn’t make sense to borrow for them then it doesn’t make sense to do it in the first place. It may seem harsh but at least you’ve money turning fairly quickly and if they go right you a couple of years ahead.

Dunedin

The cow is 50% of the job and farmers when using AI think that even if it’s a rig of a cow, just cos it’s AI you’re guaranteed a good calf. Also, farmers still veer towards easy calving even with AI on bigger roomy cows which will in the most part bring a calf which would be no better than your average stock bull.

AI have some fantastic bulls but you need to use them to suit your cows. And you have to factor in your personal set up in getting cows in and catching them on heat versus a bull that you may never see him bull one but he’ll have them all done.

Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

patsy_mccabe

Dunedin wrote: »

.....
Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

Yer man must have raised him catholic.

kollegeknight

Dunedin wrote: »

The cow is 50% of the job and farmers when using AI think that even if it’s a rig of a cow, just cos it’s AI you’re guaranteed a good calf. Also, farmers still veer towards easy calving even with AI on bigger roomy cows which will in the most part bring a calf which would be no better than your average stock bull.

AI have some fantastic bulls but you need to use them to suit your cows. And you have to factor in your personal set up in getting cows in and catching them on heat versus a bull that you may never see him bull one but he’ll have them all done.

Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

Current bull is exactly like that. You never see him mounting anything. One year, everything was scanned Empty, got awful nervous. Vet came back a week or two later and everything in calf in a matter of days.

Hard Knocks

kollegeknight wrote: »

Current bull is exactly like that. You never see him mounting anything. One year, everything was scanned Empty, got awful nervous. Vet came back a week or two later and everything in calf in a matter of days.

Had that too, most will show from 30 days but I prefer to go 40-50 days from last serve
Scanning early lets you see what needs attention but you also run the risk of a miscarriage

Dunedin

Dunedin wrote: »

The cow is 50% of the job and farmers when using AI think that even if it’s a rig of a cow, just cos it’s AI you’re guaranteed a good calf. Also, farmers still veer towards easy calving even with AI on bigger roomy cows which will in the most part bring a calf which would be no better than your average stock bull.

AI have some fantastic bulls but you need to use them to suit your cows. And you have to factor in your personal set up in getting cows in and catching them on heat versus a bull that you may never see him bull one but he’ll have them all done.

Had a Charolais bull a few years ago during one of the really hot summers. I was off work at the time and as my land is beside the house I would check them 3 times a day, early morning, midday and late evening. Out of 20 cows only saw him bull one. I rang the fella I got him off - ‘don’t worry about him, ring me after you have scanned’. 100% in calf!!!

80% of breeding happens at night