The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

jmcc

Deleted User wrote: »

Breaking news jmcc, things come in and they move fast.

Senior hurling has a pace to it

Felicitations snoopsheep

What a fascinating and modern age we live in.

Regards...jmcc

hatrickpatrick

blanch152 wrote: »

A voting intentions database?

The principle of consent applies to that and there is a clear breach of GDPR.

We don't know whether it is different to what Cambridge Analytica did, it could be much less, it could be much more. However, for example, if Sinn Fein use a central database to target where resources such as cars for election day should be put in place, or what type of election literature to circulate, the principle is pretty similar to Cambridge Analytica.

However, does anyone really think that Sinn Fein will honestly answer the questions?

And the Cambridge Analytica "scandal" was a load of bullsh!t. If people didn't want their information used in this way, they shouldn't have given it to a company (Facebook) which was extremely open about user data being its product, not the services it provided to its users free of charge. Anyone with a brain stem should have known this. Cambridge Analytica did nothing wrong, as far as I'm concerned. Nor did the Obama or Trump campaigns. Nor does any Irish party, SF included, who uses data in this manner.

Maybe it's just me, but once you upload something to a forum like Facebook, you have fundamentally ceded control over that data. The concept underlying GDPR, that one can simply "recall" that consent after the fact, is technologically illiterate bullsh!t and literally always has been. That not how the internet works. That's not how data storage works. That's not how human memory works. Once you have put something "out there", you cannot - and should not - have the ability to "scrub" it entirely from human memory. T

he EU's stance on this issue, from the "right to be forgotten" to GDPR, is, in my view, fundamentally unrealistic. It damages the end-user experience for the vast majority of internet users, for the sake of a tiny minority of idiots who are too stupid to understand how the internet works and what happens when you give your email address away as part of signing up for a free service.

And just to reiterate, I am entirely non-partisan on this issue. We know that both parties in the United States used tactics like this - I had no problem with it when Obama did it and I had no problem with it when Trump did it. I've always assumed all parties here do it as well - we now know for sure that SF do it, and I have no problem with it.

It may be a violation of GDPR. So are many basic and ordinary functions of the modern internet. GDPR is an idealistic clusterf*ck which is attempting to change the fundamental nature of the internet through brute force, and is succeeding only in making like difficult for users and service providers all over the world.

I'll give you a more serious example. I'm not going to name the organisation, but someone I know works for a major public accountability body, and that body has had a very, very serious question mark over whether GDPR forces them to divulge case files to people who are under investigation for potential wrongdoing, as well as the identities of whistleblowers involved. That's just one example, but the monstrosity that is GDPR has created a minefield for such organisations. If you want to take a hypothetical example, imagine if a patient of a residential care facility complained to HIQA about alleged abuse, and a staff member accused by that individual demanded access to the full case file on the grounds that it contains information relating to themselves and therefore GDPR allows access.

Whether it does or doesn't is beside the point - I have no doubt that many people and organisations have intentionally used the confusion around GDPR to make up bullsh!t quasi-legal arguments in the hopes that those on the receiving end will back down without checking whether the argument holds water - the point is, any legal framework which creates such absurd levels of confusion around basic, day-to-day activities is a crappy legal framework.

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether any organisation is in breach of GDPR. GDPR itself is a clusterf*ck. Our own homegrown data protection law, on the other hand, is extremely solid. Ironically enough, while SF explicitly are not in breach of that in this case, an arm of the Irish state itself has been - the DEASP, in relation to the public services card (PSC). And the DEASP themselves have essentially acknowledged that the DPC found them in breach of Irish data protection law, stated they will carry on breaking the law regardless, and essentially told the DPC to go f*ck themselves.

It is ridiculous that a political party on any side of the aisle would be attacked and scapegoated for doing the kind of basic market research which makes everyone's lives - voters and canvassers alike - a little easier. If the law forbids this kind of basic research, it should be changed. It's a moronic, stupid law. But as I've said, anecdotal stories from many people I know working in the public service would suggest that that's precisely what GDPR is. A moronic, stupid law. And that's certainly what's crossed my own mind any time I've tried to click on a Google News link to an international news story printed in an American newspaper, only to get an error 451 message because that site uses cookies to target ads and has therefore been forced to block EU-based IP addresses because of GDPR.

Ye broke the internet. Well f*cking done. Excuse me if I fail to find myself in any way annoyed at any entity which chooses to give the two fingers to something which should never ever have become law to begin with.

hatrickpatrick

blanch152 wrote: »

Correct, and none of the filibustering around here has addressed that issue.

Mine has, but you've chosen not to engage with my viewpoint. Which is fair enough, but I'm curious to know why you buy into the ludicrous fantasy that people get to control information they have chosen to make public. As much as the EU might like to fantasise about it, you cannot "unpublish" something on the internet. That's just not how it works. If you make something public, you give up control of it. If you didn't want it being used for market research, you shouldn't have made it public.

That's certainly what goes through my mind any time I'm deciding whether to post something in public using my real name, and that is most certainly not just in relation to political parties. I don't understand how anyone who knows how the internet works can possibly treat it any differently.

smurgen

Amusing that those that were so certain of no GDPR issues around the mother and baby homes or say the secret HSE dossiers on the families of autistic children and now certain of GDPR issues here also. Even more amusing is all the other parties facing questions.

costacorta

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

This Dowdall story might not be easy to brush away for SF.

Interesting times if the Monk gets brought back.

Was he the former SF councillor who in threatening to cut off a businessman’s fingers stated he was a close friend of Gerry and Mary Lou ? .
Edit
Dowdall threatened to cut his victim's fingers off and talked about chopping him up and feeding him to dogs.

He also bragged that he was a member of the IRA and close friends of Gerry Adams and Mary Lou McDonald.

The father and son are currently serving eight and four-year prison sentences after pleading guilty to false imprisonment and making threats to kill their terrified victim.

maccored

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

This Dowdall story might not be easy to brush away for SF.

Interesting times if the Monk gets brought back.

A four year old news report wont be easy for sf to brush off?

Brendan Bendar

costacorta wrote: »

Was he the former SF councillor who in threatening to cut off a businessman’s fingers stated he was a close friend of Gerry and Mary Lou ? .
Edit
Dowdall threatened to cut his victim's fingers off and talked about chopping him up and feeding him to dogs.

He also bragged that he was a member of the IRA and close friends of Gerry Adams and Mary Lou McDonald.

The father and son are currently serving eight and four-year prison sentences after pleading guilty to false imprisonment and making threats to kill their terrified victim.

Indeed I often wonder about the strange collection of SF councilors wandering about the place.

Some might have what could be described as ‘colorful’ backgrounds.

Uhmm....

jh79

maccored wrote: »

A four year old news report wont be easy for sf to brush off?

The father was arrested last night as part of the Regency investigation.

Previously reported in the papers that JD was driving Gerry Hutch to safe houses in the wake of the Regency and that the car was bugged.

maccored

jh79 wrote: »

The father was arrested last night as part of the Regency investigation.

Previously reported in the papers that JD was driving Gerry Hutch to safe houses in the wake of the Regency and that the car was bugged.

still dont see the relevance myself. SF arent responsible for what ex councillors and their fathers do

jh79

maccored wrote: »

still dont see the relevance myself. SF arent responsible for what ex councillors and their fathers do

There might not be, we'll have to wait and see what comes up in the trial.

Gerry Hutch is making accusations about SF, Colum Fox and the Gardai on twitter. If he did have a relationship with the Provos it seems to have soured now.

Jinglejangle69

maccored wrote: »

still dont see the relevance myself. SF arent responsible for what ex councillors and their fathers do

He was a SF Councillor at the time of his crime.

ohnonotgmail

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

He was a SF Councillor at the time of his crime.

a SF councillor who claimed ties to the IRA. They haven't gone away you know.

maccored

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

He was a SF Councillor at the time of his crime.

aye - four years ago. old territory. More 'we'll see'. Tells ye's what - wake me up when yous actually have something that's not based on what if's and we'll see.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't that why they dumped Dowdall so quickly.

If you are going to get in with gangsters, at least get in with those who are politically connected to SF.

They didn't dump him - he resigned his council seat due to health reasons. Here is Ciaran Cuffe & Ray McAdam wishing him well.


https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-jonathan-dowdall-resigns-1937189-Feb2015/


Interesting that he was also going to quit Sinn Fein because of negative criticism from fellow Sinn Fein members.


And just for the record MLMD never called him a ''good republican''. She said he was a ''hard worker'' which seemingly he was and probably why he got elected in the first place.




https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/566239962782507009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E566239962782507009%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejournal.ie%2Fsinn-fein-jonathan-dowdall-resigns-1937189-Feb2015%2F

jm08

costacorta wrote: »

Was he the former SF councillor who in threatening to cut off a businessman’s fingers stated he was a close friend of Gerry and Mary Lou ? .
Edit
Dowdall threatened to cut his victim's fingers off and talked about chopping him up and feeding him to dogs.

He also bragged that he was a member of the IRA and close friends of Gerry Adams and Mary Lou McDonald.

The father and son are currently serving eight and four-year prison sentences after pleading guilty to false imprisonment and making threats to kill their terrified victim.

He wasn't a businessman. He was someone they thought was trying to scam them pretending to buy a motorbike.

FrancieBrady

Just fantastic that Philip Ryan's journalism will now reveal the 'secret' online activity by all political parties.

It's needed for a long time. Should have happened when FG spoke about using anonymous accounts, but better late than never.
'Let the truth fall where it may', as Ian Paisley said.

hatrickpatrick

jh79 wrote: »

Gerry Hutch is making accusations about SF, Colum Fox and the Gardai on twitter. If he did have a relationship with the Provos it seems to have soured now.

Have you a link? I didn't realise Gerry himself was on Twitter, only various acolytes?

jh79

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Have you a link? I didn't realise Gerry himself was on Twitter, only various acolytes?

It's assumed to be Gerry or someone close. Knew about his arrest warrant in advance. Was posting about it earlier in the week.

These are two Hutch accounts

https://twitter.com/Cancer42198753?s=09

https://twitter.com/PheonixZooHq?s=09

tikkahunter

jm08 wrote: »

He wasn't a businessman. He was someone they thought was trying to scam them pretending to buy a motorbike.

Yes and also MLmcD’s neighbour, some even claimed on here she didn’t know him

tikkahunter

tikkahunter wrote: »

Yes and also MLmcD’s neighbour, some even claimed on here she didn’t know him

Here’s a picture of Johnny, Mary and Gerry in happier times. The links between the Kinehan’s and SF would be something I presume an enterprising journalist is exploring, but I believe this lad was ‘team Hutch’.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/5c980/35735512.ece/AUTOCROP/h530/2017-05-20_new_31318855_I1.JPG

StupidLikeAFox

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And the Cambridge Analytica "scandal" was a load of bullsh!t. If people didn't want their information used in this way, they shouldn't have given it to a company (Facebook) which was extremely open about user data being its product, not the services it provided to its users free of charge.

Do you actually know what Cambridge Analytica did? They systematically profiled people based on their personality type and bombarded them with fake news, propaganda and conspiracy theories, created a fantasy parallel reality they manipulated and brainwashed people. It wasn't a simple "You have expressed interest in beer, here is a selection of beers you might like".

There is no accusation that this is what SF are doing btw. Tbh if all Sinn Fein has been doing is running a survey and asking whether you are interested in housing or whatever then thats fairly harmless. But asking a simple question in here gets the online army out in force - "don't worry about it, not your problem", "they are all at it" (even if we don't know what "it" is), you are a FG shill, you are trying to deflect from Leo, heres advice on how to design a database (?). A bit of ****ing clarity would be grand.

Fionn1952

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

There is no accusation that this is what SF are doing btw.

In fairness, it has actually been claimed on this thread that what SF are/were doing is WORSE than CA....a perspective about as idiotic as claiming that CA were totally grand and people shouldn't care what is done with their data without permission.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Here’s a picture of Johnny, Mary and Gerry in happier times. The links between the Kinehan’s and SF would be something I presume an enterprising journalist is exploring, but I believe this lad was ‘team Hutch’.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/5c980/35735512.ece/AUTOCROP/h530/2017-05-20_new_31318855_I1.JPG

I believe the issue at the time was that he was resigning from SF, becoming an independent councillor because of criticism of him from within Sinn Fein. If he resigned as an independent, SF would not get to replace him with a SF councillor. It was around this time that Mary Lou got involved, presumably so that SF didn't lose that Council seat.


As you can see from that article on his resignation, he seems to have been well thought of by Ciaran Cuffe and others on the Council.

blanch152

Fionn1952 wrote: »

In fairness, it has actually been claimed on this thread that what SF are/were doing is WORSE than CA....a perspective about as idiotic as claiming that CA were totally grand and people shouldn't care what is done with their data without permission.

The difference between Sinn Fein and Cambridge Analytica is that Sinn Fein have aims to get into government and the real danger to democracy is that they take their database and the information on it into the workings of government. That is a far greater risk to democracy than anything CA did.

hatrickpatrick

jh79 wrote: »

It's assumed to be Gerry or someone close. Knew about his arrest warrant in advance. Was posting about it earlier in the week.

These are two Hutch accounts

https://twitter.com/Cancer42198753?s=09

https://twitter.com/PheonixZooHq?s=09

Ah lads

https://twitter.com/PheonixZooHq/status/1384520665433321473

I always assumed these were fanboy accounts as opposed to any of the big fish themselves. Daniel Kinahan himself certainly used to have one, @DJK256, but he deleted it after the media published a bunch of his tweets with the handle unpixelated

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

The difference between Sinn Fein and Cambridge Analytica is that Sinn Fein have aims to get into government and the real danger to democracy is that they take their database and the information on it into the workings of government. That is a far greater risk to democracy than anything CA did.

the fear is great with this one

hatrickpatrick

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Do you actually know what Cambridge Analytica did? They systematically profiled people based on their personality type and bombarded them with fake news, propaganda and conspiracy theories, created a fantasy parallel reality they manipulated and brainwashed people. It wasn't a simple "You have expressed interest in beer, here is a selection of beers you might like".

On Facebook. Anyone who takes literally a single word written on Facebook by random strangers seriously is exactly the kind of person I was talking about - too stupid for social media. I for one am totally against crippling and baby-proofing the internet, removing features which are useful and helpful for the majority of users just because some people never learned to think critically. Again though that's just me. It shouldn't matter what's being written on Facebook, if you don't personally know the person writing it or you can't verify where that person got their information, using it to decide who to vote for makes you a moron.

Morons exist, but there's no reason non-morons should have their internet usage curtailed in order to hand-hold people who don't get it.

There is no accusation that this is what SF are doing btw. Tbh if all Sinn Fein has been doing is running a survey and asking whether you are interested in housing or whatever then thats fairly harmless. But asking a simple question in here gets the online army out in force - "don't worry about it, not your problem", "they are all at it" (even if we don't know what "it" is), you are a FG shill, you are trying to deflect from Leo, heres advice on how to design a database (?). A bit of ****ing clarity would be grand.

I can't speak for anyone else, all I can say is that while I desperately want to see SF in government (as they are the left's only chance currently of getting a government which entirely excludes neoliberals), I'll always be a PBP, left leaning independents voter first and an SF voter second.

All I'm saying in this thread is that "social media manipulation" is in my view an absolutely moronic concept. It only works if people are too stupid to realise that social media is fundamentally an unreliable narrator. It's absolutely pathetic that we as a society insist on throwing restrictions on social media and the internet through sledgehammers like GDPR instead of concentrating on educating people on how to use the internet correctly while leaving it to evolve organically and let the chips fall where they may.

In other words, social media misinformation isn't the problem. People falling for it are the problem. Nobody would fall for social media bullsh!t if people considered the fact that social media is primarily a space for goofing off and not a feckin' newspaper.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The difference between Sinn Fein and Cambridge Analytica is that Sinn Fein have aims to get into government and the real danger to democracy is that they take their database and the information on it into the workings of government. That is a far greater risk to democracy than anything CA did.

I thought the cry was they don't want to get into government? It's make your mind up time.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

The difference between Sinn Fein and Cambridge Analytica is that Sinn Fein have aims to get into government and the real danger to democracy is that they take their database and the information on it into the workings of government. That is a far greater risk to democracy than anything CA did.

Patently ridiculous. Either you genuinely don't understand the difference or you're being willfully dishonest with this take.

Christ almighty, are you genuinely going to stand over the claim that the Shinners using some potentially dodgily obtained data to direct their canvassing is a bigger threat to democracy than Cambridge Analytica using much more sophisticated data analytics to create targeted, 'fake news' to directly influence voting intentions and manipulate US presidential elections and Brexit? That's going to be a fierce lonely hill to die on, Blanch.

blanch152

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Patently ridiculous. Either you genuinely don't understand the difference or you're being willfully dishonest with this take.

Christ almighty, are you genuinely going to stand over the claim that the Shinners using some potentially dodgily obtained data to direct their canvassing is a bigger threat to democracy than Cambridge Analytica using much more sophisticated data analytics to create targeted, 'fake news' to directly influence voting intentions and manipulate US presidential elections and Brexit? That's going to be a fierce lonely hill to die on, Blanch.

That isn't what I am saying. It is not about directing canvassing.

I am saying that Sinn Fein if they got into power could use this database in much more nefarious ways and treat citizens differently on the basis of it. We know Sinn Fein are not to be trusted, and the potential harm that they can do with such a database is huge.