What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

hatrickpatrick

trixi001 wrote: »

The UK is likely to help Ireland out ahead of other EU countries though - so this all may actually work out in Ireland's favour?

Under the current UK government and in the backdrop of all the hardball both sides played over Brexit, I'm not getting my hopes up. I can already see many people in the conservative establishment over there viewing withholding the vaccine out of spite a nice "f*ck you" to us and Europe for making things difficult for them.

monkeybutter

Libb1964 wrote: »

My 84 year old mother has been given her first dose of the Oxford vaccine with no appointment date for when she will be given her second.

I am pro vaccine but do not believe that until she is given her 2nd dose, at least within 12 weeks, she is in anyway immunised.

This fiasco has nothing to do with either how the EU or how the UK handled procurement. AZ are coming across as chancers. As a poster said earlier this is looking more and more like a ponzi scheme

wait a second where is your mother? it hasn't been approved here yet

Call me Al

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Under the current UK government and in the backdrop of all the hardball both sides played over Brexit, I'm not getting my hopes up. I can already see many people in the conservative establishment over there viewing withholding the vaccine out of spite a nice "f*ck you" to us and Europe for making things difficult for them.

I expect them to want to extract a pound of flesh into any bargain we might try to broker.

Stark

monkeybutter wrote: »

how would you feel if your mother died because they had taken short cuts with the vaccine


i mean they could have released it at the end of the summer with no trials etc


sure it might have been fine

In fairness, the vaccine was shown to be safe when the UK approved it. It was the efficacy at the tested dosing intervals that was in question.

Pete_Cavan

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

These are not EU or UK plants, they are AZ controlled regardless of where they are located. AZ have to fulfill their contractual commitments to both parties. The British media may present it as everything in the UK being better because they are wonderful but it is all down to AZ and their management of production across all sites, not EU or UK.

This thing about the UK being "quicker" is a total smokescreen. Last June, AZ agreed to supply doses to the EU before the end of last year. The EU even put up hundreds of millions of euro in advanced payments to facilitate production.

Exactly, if you undertake two contracts, your obligation is to fulfill the terms of both contracts irrespective of who signed first, unless stated. If you cannot fulfill the terms of both contracts due to manufacturing issues, you do not renege on only one. All contractual obligations must be treated in the same manner, unless stated otherwise

monkeybutter

Stark wrote: »

In fairness, the vaccine was shown to be safe when the UK approved it. It was the efficacy at the tested dosing intervals that was in question.

sure why werent the uk interested in that?

Melanchthon

emmalynn19 wrote: »

The EU are disputing that.


From Naomi O'Learys thread:


AZ took EU money and put it into ramping up for producing vaccines in the UK
Initial UK supply came from Belgium & Netherlands
Now decide that UK factories are for UK only
Continues to supply UK at full tilt, EU supply reduced to 31% of agreed
EU now saying they will publish contract themselves

This is why I raised the question about how the EU is apparently investing in production to a considerable degree but also coming out with a price per dose for Astra Zeneca (which is sold at cost) that's considerably higher than the UK's costs. Something doesn't add up here and it's not just the vaccine delivery schedule I am talking about, why are the UK costs higher if the EU apparently invested in manufacturing to the same level?

https://www.businessinsider.com/cost-pfizer-astrazeneca-moderna-vaccine-eu-revealed-belgian-mp-2020-12?r=US&IR=T

Libb1964

monkeybutter wrote: »

wait a second where is your mother? it hasn't been approved here yet

England. She also had to get a taxi to the nearest centre which was 20 miles away from her home and stand for half an hour outside in the cold.
Some of those waiting had to be rescued and taken in early in wheelchairs.

Melanchthon

Donald Trump wrote: »

EU are pushing for the contract to be released. There is obviously a confidentiality aspect there. Let's hope that AZ release it. If they don't then it will be a little telling - no?


It wouldn't seem like a smart thing to do for the EU Commission to set itself up for a slam-dunk beating in court if AZ are on solid ground here would it? Do you think that that is realistic? They are kicking up a fair stink and drawing attention to it. It doesn't seem like the act of a party that knows it will shown to be at fault?

I agree that it would be good if AZ publicly say the contract can be released, hopefully they are clearing it with their lawyers now.

My point is I can read the AZ Chief answering parliamentary committee minutes from weeks ago (and I think there is older ones), is there anything equivalent to that on the EU side that the minutes are accessible? If there is please give a link cos it would be interesting.

In terms of the EU Commission I think they are worried about surviving the next couple of months, it won't be them paying the legal bill anyway if it fails in court and there must be serious internal pressures occuring in key member states, in a few months time with other vaccines coming in the story won't be as big, did you read the Bild article with the letter?

mick087

Libb1964 wrote: »

I want all vulnerable people and essential workers to receive a safe vaccine in a timely manner.

I think the EU were right to order as a union rather than as individual countries to stop this sort of eventuality.

The vulnerable and elderly first yes.

Who decides who is a essential worker?


Yes you would think it would be good and right to order as a union.
But the questions remains why was they 3 moths behind other countries in ordering? 3 months to me seems along a terribly long time.

agoodpunt

assuming brexiteers are loving this and will use it to help conservatives in the next election
this was a smash and grab empty eu supplies now use the uk plants to add to there inventory eu are slow

Melanchthon

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

These are not EU or UK plants, they are AZ controlled regardless of where they are located. AZ have to fulfill their contractual commitments to both parties. The British media may present it as everything in the UK being better because they are wonderful but it is all down to AZ and their management of production across all sites, not EU or UK.

This thing about the UK being "quicker" is a total smokescreen. Last June, AZ agreed to supply doses to the EU before the end of last year. The EU even put up hundreds of millions of euro in advanced payments to facilitate production.

Stop repeating the lie that they reached agreement with the EU in June, they had talks with the Vaccine group but not the EU, the commission took over and it resulted in a delay. We have a letter with the German health minister stating that no funding was signed off on.

"have not started negotiations on the funding agreement of Astra Zeneca so far."
https://m.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-inland/with-this-letter-by-jens-spahn-the-vaccine-disaster-in-the-eu-begann-74736986.bildMobile.html

It's as bad as the Brexit fanatics

Joe_ Public

trixi001 wrote: »

This is what the bbc are reporting about the initial supply coming from the EU - most of the production still took place in the UK

"Some doses were sent to Germany and the Netherlands last year for a process called fill-and-finish, which involves putting it into vials. This is now being done at a plant in Wrexham, creating a complete UK supply chain.

And that arrangement, AstraZeneca sources say, had no impact on the production problems the EU vaccine manufacturing plants experienced.

Making a vaccine is a biological process - there are no guarantees in terms of quantity.

The fact the UK was quick off the mark gave the UK plants more time to tweak the process to get a better yield"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55838272

Also - were the initial doses not only about 4m - so it wouldn't make a vast amount of difference anyway?

The UK is likely to help Ireland out ahead of other EU countries though - so this all may actually work out in Ireland's favour?

That bbc report may be true, but afaik the Netherlands plant is production only so not sure why the uk would ever have sent the vaccine there. The fill and finish plants are in germany and italy.

According to below link, one German official (mep, i think) claims the uk were still sending vaccine to Dessau in germany up to a few days ago thus showing the supply lines still werent distinct. Hard to know precisely what the facts are here.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-is-astrazeneca-in-breach-of-its-eu-contract/a-56360480

plodder

Roger_007 wrote: »

If the EU eventually end up taking AZ to court, what court, and where?

(Hardly in the UK)

Not a lawyer, but I presume in one or more EU countries where AZ has a presence.

mick087

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Under the current UK government and in the backdrop of all the hardball both sides played over Brexit, I'm not getting my hopes up. I can already see many people in the conservative establishment over there viewing withholding the vaccine out of spite a nice "f*ck you" to us and Europe for making things difficult for them.

Is this not between the EU and AZ?
What does the UK government have to do with this?

I hope our government is banging on the EU commissioner doors to find out what went wrong.

Libb1964

Libb1964 wrote: »

England. She also had to get a taxi to the nearest centre which was 20 miles away from her home and stand for half an hour outside in the cold.
Some of those waiting had to be rescued and taken in early in wheelchairs.

20 miles from the nearest vaccine centre?

Does she live in Sealand?

ted1

Roger_007 wrote: »

If the EU eventually end up taking AZ to court, what court, and where?

(Hardly in the UK)

It’d be detailed in the contract. But the EU could block all their other medicines where alternatives are available

ted1

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

brexiteers are claiming AZ was not paid, is this true? (i assume not but of course theres so much fud)

Irrelevant.

Renault 5

I have a feeling that it wont just be the EU as a whole being able to take AZ to court.

I think ( Could be wrong ) that each of the 27 EU countries could take individual lawsuits against AZ.

Melanchthon

Libb1964 wrote: »

England. She also had to get a taxi to the nearest centre which was 20 miles away from her home and stand for half an hour outside in the cold.
Some of those waiting had to be rescued and taken in early in wheelchairs.

Maybe your right I am not super familiar with how the process is in England but this seems odd.
As far as I know the oldest are getting vaccinated by GP's with Astra Zeneca, while the old but slightly less old are getting called into the vaccination centers which are using Pfizer more?
Source:elderly relatives

Melanchthon

Melanchthon wrote: »

Maybe your right I am not super familiar with how the process is in England but this seems odd.
As far as I know the oldest are getting vaccinated by GP's with Astra Zeneca, while the old but slightly less old are getting called into the vaccination centers which are using Pfizer more?
Source:elderly relatives

My folks get their this afternoon, they are relatively fit and healthy and in their late seventies.

They are going to the town hall, but friends who are over 80 have all been done in the local health clinic (which is still doing them).

They have probably more than a dozen locations within 20 miles of them that are being used as hubs, that doesn’t include the actual medical facilities.

Renault 5

Aegir wrote: »

My folks get their this afternoon, they are relatively fit and healthy and in their late seventies.

They are going to the town hall, but friends who are over 80 have all been done in the local health clinic (which is still doing them).

They have probably more than a dozen locations within 20 miles of them that are being used as hubs, that doesn’t include the actual medical facilities.

Is that in the US or UK?

Pete_Cavan

Melanchthon wrote: »

Stop repeating the lie that they reached agreement with the EU in June, they had talks with the Vaccine group but not the EU, the commission took over and it resulted in a delay. We have a letter with the German health minister stating that no funding was signed off on.

"have not started negotiations on the funding agreement of Astra Zeneca so far."
https://m.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-inland/with-this-letter-by-jens-spahn-the-vaccine-disaster-in-the-eu-begann-74736986.bildMobile.html

It's as bad as the Brexit fanatics

This is what AZ themselves announced in June

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/astraz/media-centre/press-releases/2020/astrazeneca-to-supply-europe-with-up-to-400-million-doses-of-oxford-universitys-vaccine-at-no-profit.html

AstraZeneca has reached an agreement with Europe’s Inclusive Vaccines Alliance (IVA), spearheaded by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, to supply up to 400 million doses of the University of Oxford’s COVID-19 vaccine, with deliveries starting by the end of 2020.

They were gearing up to supply the doses from the end of 2020 since June. By the time the contract was signed, the client changed from IVA to EU, nothing changed from a production point of view. The contract firmed up on details but AZ were working towards its fulfillment since June.

Regardless of when the contract was signed, AZ are still bound by the terms of it. You can't sign a contract, take €300m payment upfront, and then in mid Jan revised EU the deliveries from 100m doses delivered by end March down to 31m. They have clearly fcked up.

Renault 5

Renault 5 wrote: »

Is that in the US or UK?

U.K. in Berkshire

Renault 5

Aegir wrote: »

U.K. in Berkshire

Nice one

My mother was 81 yesterday so hoping she gets vaccinated in the next month or two

CIARAN_BOYLE

mick087 wrote: »

Is this not between the EU and AZ?
What does the UK government have to do with this?

I hope our government is banging on the EU commissioner doors to find out what went wrong.

Probably nothing. A lot of people are inferring a lot.

According to an ec official speaking to the media the contract between the EU and AZ names 2 eu and 2 UK factories to supply the EU with vaccine.

According to Astra Zenaca the UK will be supplied from the UK and the EU will be supplied by the EU.

People are inferring that the UK government has pressured Astra Zenaca to keep all UK made vaccines in the UK.

melekalikimaka

FT saying the germans are not going ahead with over 65s due to lack of data.

Renault 5

Renault 5 wrote: »

Nice one

My mother was 81 yesterday so hoping she gets vaccinated in the next month or two

it is a huge relief.

Melanchthon

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This is what AZ themselves announced in June

https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/astraz/media-centre/press-releases/2020/astrazeneca-to-supply-europe-with-up-to-400-million-doses-of-oxford-universitys-vaccine-at-no-profit.html



They were gearing up to supply the doses from the end of 2020 since June.

The damn German health minister himself has confirmed that they hadn't even started negotiating funding in June, Astra Zeneca clearly thought they were just about to reach the agreement but then the commission came in and it was drawn out. They were hardly going to gear up with no funding agreed at all.
That's partly why this row is so toxic.
Stop repeating the lie.

Godot.

Claiming British supplies strikes me as a bit of a pyrric victory that slows down the UK more than it helps the EU.

The EU is short what, 70 million doses for Q1 and the UK is pumping out 2 million a week jabs. If the EU took half (for argument's sake) in February and March that's only 8 million... is the dick swinging really worth poisoning cross channel relations?

If the EU had rubber stamped it in June when AZ signed the contract instead of August we wouldn't be having this discussion. We need to stop being jealous of the Brits and realise our problems are of our own making.