Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

FrancieBrady

More interesting is this

@LucidTalk poll for @BelTel on how NI would vote in a referendum on the protocol deal:

67% of people - Yes

rustynutz

If this deal is approved and brings certainty to northern Ireland, a lot of multinationals will want to set up shop in NI in order to have access to both markets, what the unionists don't seem to get (or maybe do, but are putting their political careers above all else) is this is their best route to preventing a united Ireland down the road.

If NI is thriving in ten years time due to these multinationals, then nobody apart from hardliners) on either side of the divide is going to vote for a united Ireland, which would potentially remove NI from its Lucrative position with access to UK and EU markets.

These halfwit within the DUP must surely be running out of road at this stage with their core voters, they have missed every opportunity with brexit from start to finish, determined to drag NI kicking and screaming down the sh!tter with Britain, instead of seizing the great opportunity staring them in the face.

downcow

Tell me this? I’m interested in your take on it.

if (or rather when) I phone the guards and give them the reg of a southern car leavings Tesco in newry headed for the eu with lots of ‘not for eu’ stamped food in it, are the guards bound to interrupt the crime and if not can I report roi to eu?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343807#Comment_120343807

I agree with most of this. It’s the great conundrum for everyone living in ni.

halfwit (as you call them) people who are dinosaur unionists are trying to get their stamp on the country (brexit, gstk played at sporting fixture etc) , and halfwit people who are dinosaur nationalists are trying to get their stamp on the country (Irish signs, up the ra songs, etc)

both are actually doing the work of the other ie gstk at sporting fixtures aids those pushing for ni to join Ireland and those putting up Irish signs reduces the numbers who would vote to move ni into Ireland.

I have no idea what the answer is. It’s like turkeys voting for Christmas in both cases. I guess they cancel eachother out

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343809#Comment_120343809

'Hidden'?? In a publicly available document? Maybe it is hidden becuse you don't actually read the dang thing? Sam is being his usual sensationalist self.

Goods leak across borders everywhere. It is having mechanisms to stop wholesale exploitation that is important. There have always been restrictions on what you could bring across downcow, both ways. Forecourts here will be full of cars from NI taking advantage of what is cheaper here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343834#Comment_120343834

A MAJORITY think the Protocol is a benefit to them downcow...including Unionists. Trying to overturn it is nothing more than a minority wanting a veto. And it isn't going to happen.

FrancieBrady

Business happy yet again with the arrangements.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64894570

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343873#Comment_120343873

Oh I get that. A majority also think that capital punishment should be brought back for a series of crimes. I don’t follow that crowd either.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344456#Comment_120344456

You'll have to if a majority 'vote' for it or it becomes the law of the land. You can object and democratically try to change it though but you won't be able to veto it.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343809#Comment_120343809

You've edited your original post about phoning the gardai about someone who bought stuff in Tesco Newry bringing stuff across the border.

It would presumably be customs that youd be reporting to.

However, it's for personal use and not for resale so is not relevant.

Seth Brundle

So big businesses in NI are backing the WF so will this mean that the DUP will continue on their path to harm NI economically and head in the opposite direction?

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1634463398971817986?t=yaKedHZib2XnVmxnVl-JVA&s=19

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344733#Comment_120344733

Yes apologies I just didn’t want to duplicate the issue as my question was the same as the point I was making.

I suppose my question is if joe bloggs buys an item in the Uk that is marked ‘not for eu’ is he committing a crime if he takes it into the eu for personal consumption. I honestly don’t know the answer

Seth Brundle

Did I not answer that for you???

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120347818#Comment_120347818

I thought you were just guessing. I thought it wasn’t that simple. I assume you cannot take unlimited alcohol between Liverpool and Dublin whether or not it is for personal use, since Uk left eu, but I could well be wrong on this?

would goods with ‘not for eu’ not be regarded as contraband if arriving in the eu?

…..and don’t everyone jump on me, this is a question not an assertion

Sam Russell

Lots of goods are contraband.

Simple case: Counterfeit goods are illegal and if caught with a fake Gucci watch, you could be in serious trouble. However, they normally go after the traders in counterfeit goods, rather than the purchasers.

Duty goods, like cigarettes and alcohol: These are controlled in member state by the member state. Limits are normally set and controlled.

Cars: These are controlled by registration in each state. Once registered in a member state, they can be exported to another member state without VAT or duty, but might be subject to a registration tax. That tax is refundable (in part) if the vehicle is returned to another state.

Goods that do not comply with EU standards: These goods are not allowed to be sold in the EU, but personal import is a grey area.

Criminal activity: This is obviously another matter.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120348127#Comment_120348127

The British as well as the Irish have been bringing stuff in from outside the EU for as long as it has existed. Via airports, ports and more recently via the internet.

As long as you are doing it for personal use it has been ok, but even then you can break the rules re. quantities. The labeling will likely be 'not for sale in the EU'.

Unionists' new take seems to be that the Single Market is some innocent and pure entity that once violated, becomes impure and worthless. The whole idea is to belittle the entire concept of trying to protect the Single Market of 450 million people. If Margaret can bring home salmon from Newry with "not for EU" written on it, why do we need a Protocol at all? The Market has already been corrupted.

https://twitter.com/NornIrishBrit/status/1634514756110364673

It's like a hivemind.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120348262#Comment_120348262

We'll probably have to listen to a lot of this going forward. Nolan documentary's revealing grainy footage of Mick taking his 200 fags and pack of chlorinated chicken nback into the perfidious EU.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120348127#Comment_120348127

In general, there isn't a problem with a traveller bringing in for personal use/consumption goods which could not be legally sold in the EU.

There are exceptions — goods where not only sale but also possession is banned (e.g. cocaine); possibly goods whose sale or consumption is regulated (e.g. prescription drugs); and some tax-driven exceptions (e.g., limits on the amount of alcohol you can import for personal consumption). But if you go to, say, China and buy yourself a set of noise-cancelling headphones that doesn't carry the CE mark, you can bring them home with you, no problem. But you can't resell them in the EU.

People are saying that it will be illegal under the Windsor Framework to buy "not for sale in EU" goods in NI and bring them into IRL. It could be so, but until somebody is pointing me to chapter and verse on this — the actual legal text, not some commentator's claim about the effect of an unspecified provision in the text — I'm going to be sceptical about this. I don't see why either EU or UK would be motivated to include such a provision in the Windsor Framework texts.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351752#Comment_120351752

That makes sense 👍

FrancieBrady

Jeffrey says No.

Downing St. says: That's all you are getting.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/downing-street-warns-dup-that-windsor-framework-is-best-deal-available-to-ni/1638827166.html

pixelburp

Sometimes I read this claptrap and do genuinely wonder when, if ever, we'll see DUP decide to re-join reality. There has to be a breaking point where realpolitik overrides their craven paranoia over a Tadhg being First Minister. Don't particularly want a SF Taoiseach, even if the winds seem to be blowing that way; but you'd have to dig deep to find a party or individual in the Dáil willing to self-sabotage the country over.

I dunno. Maybe through back-channels the DUP are listening to the forked-tongue guff from the Tories' ERG clique, Boris Johnson or the Westminister canteen staff for all we know - and they think they can outlast Rishi Sunak's time as PM? 'cos at this stage I can't fathom what they think they can achieve.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120361152#Comment_120361152

Think Trump voters going Qanon, rather than admitt the truth that Trump lost and rather donate their money to a self claimed billionaire to overturn the election. It's much easier to deny reality than accept it because that means you'd have to re-evaluate all you thought and believed in compared to simply digging deeper and diving into the rabbit hole head first. It never works out long term but it's far easier to do. As a bonus they can claim they did not want it or facilitate it, the fault is EU (and at a pinch Westminister who don't listen to them as they should) and keep harping back to the good old days.

Yes; their core base will keep shrinking but for them to do anything else would be to surrender their whole base to parties in either direction (i.e. UUP/Alliance) for those that want more ostrich style politics or removed blinders. The simple reality is DUP is a dinosaur party that can only exist by denying reality to try to hold on to their ever diminishing amount of votes while dreaming of the heydays somehow returning again.

Leroy42

But is you are DUP what have you got to lose? There is rarely a sanction for them. And so far they have been the tail wagging the dog in terms of their impact on Brexit. Compare the position that there DUP enjoy against that of the SNP. DUP is being actively listened to, SNP (and many others) have been told to simply shut up and accept Brexit.

So, they continue to make gains and therefore why would they stop? Their is really no upside to them for doing so. Yes, it may work out better economically in the long run for NI, but that isn't guaranteed and the price for that unknown is to accept SF as first minister. The fear must be that once that bridge is crossed, and on the assumption that nothing terrible happens, that politics start to move to a new normal, that of people voting for their interests rather than just what side they are born into.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362490#Comment_120362490

The DUP maybe be listened to but only to a point. What generally happens is that at a certain point, the listening stops and what the DUP say they don't want to happen happens. It will likely be the same this time. The SNP not being listened to is actually good for their cause, the situation with the DUP is hugely damaging to their cause and may ultimately kill it.

Sunak has to implement his deal, his premiership and likely political career are hanging on it. The Tories can't really afford for Sunak to fail either or a GE will follow and Labour will walk in to no.10 with a huge majority and mandate for far reaching reforms. The Tories will once again suit themselves at the expense of the DUP.

If the DUP try to be a thorn in Sunak's side, he can just screw them even harder, they have over-played their hand again and have nothing left. The DUP will likely be left saying "no no no" while everyone moves on without them. Jeff should have jumped on the deal from the beginning and most Unionists would have supported it. Even our own resident Unionist here was saying initially what a great deal it was. His procrastinating left a void for the headbangers to fill and there was no way he could sell the deal after that. IIRC David McWilliams recently said the DUP never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120361152#Comment_120361152

I can’t fathom why you can’t bring yourself to see the unionist voters position on this.

the ‘Tsing’ then is a total red herring - I don’t even hear the shinners raising it.

with regard to you saying they can achieve nothing more - that is exactly what people were saying a year ago and look what happened

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364710#Comment_120364710

We get why unionist voters would be unhappy with the Windsor Framework.

What we don't get is why they would think that an appropriate response is collapsing the NI institutions. The NI institutions didn't do this to them; Westminster did. But not only do the DUP continue to participate at Westminster; they continue to fraternise with, and lend support to, the very Westminster faction that has driven this, and continues to drive this. The DUP seems to think that Northern Ireland should be punished for what hard Brexiters have done to Northern Ireland in pursuit of the hard Brexit cause, while they continue to lend aid and comfort to hard Brexiters.

That's disturbingly dysfunctional behaviour; the DUP makes itself complicit in the very abuse that it complains about.

This is genuinely hard to understand. I think there's a deep-seated fear which prevents the DUP calling out hard Brexit, and hard Brexiters, as the underlying cause of everything the complain about, and that's what causes them to behave in this incoherent, self-harming fashion. I'm not entirely sure what it is that the DUP are afraid of. And I doubt that they know what they're afraid of either. But it's a fear they are going to have to face at some point, if they want to stand by the union.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120361839#Comment_120361839

I don’t disagree that the dup is a dinosaur party and I wish we could have real democracy that would move us away from that. The problem is the big two are dinosaur parties and everyone panders to them. They are both up to the crocodile tricks.

I do though believe sf are even more of a dinosaur party than even the dup. The last few days have saw them take out adverts across all the big newspapers in the USA calling for Irish unification now - have they given up trying to convince the people of the two countries involved to unite (who have moved on to more realistic hopes). Are they hoping the policeman of the world will will knock our heads together. Unbelievable stiff.

meanwhile their party leader in ni is making more speeches about how she will always honour the murder squads of the 80’s - most of the rest of the community are trying to move on but Michelle drags us back on a weekly basis.

the real dinosaurs

Peregrinus

God knows I'm no fan of SF but, really, the psychotic incoherence of the DUP positioning here has no parallel with SF seeking to influence US opinion in favour of a border poll. There just isn't the same fundamental irrationality in SF's positioning on this. And the whitewashing of the Provos disgusts me, but from SF's perspective it's not irrational or self-harming. In fact, distasteful though it is, arguably something like this is a necessary phase if NI is to transition successfully to settled democratic politics.

But anything we might say about SF in this context is just whataboutery. However odious a unionist might find Sinn Féin, that couldn't possibly influence him to conclude that the DUP's position on the Windsor Framework made any sense at all.

But, lookit; criticising the DUP on the Windsor Framework is like shooting fish in a barrel; easy, but not a lot of use. Perhaps the more interesting question is not what unionists and unionist parties shouldn't do in their attempts to get the changes they seek, but what they should do. For the individual, shouldn't vote DUP; should vote UUP is a no-brainer. But at the level of unionist parties, what tactics should be adopted to try to effect change? And what stops at least some unionist parties from adopting them?