Benefits of Buying a New Build A Rated Home vs 2nd hand average D rated?

Dolbhad

We bought last year a c2 house built in early 1980’s. Windows are double glazed and there is insulation in the Attic so there are upgraded that were down. It’s actually not as cold as I expected. We did look at new builds and BER was a factor but the second hand house offered more for us.

My family are in the trade and they said generally houses built in 40’s to earlier 90’s are solid builds if not council houses as generally they were expensive to buy and would have had small builders who knew their stuff. They advise to keep away from anything from mid 90’s until 2014 as the quality (despite building regulations coming into force on 1990’s) as they would have been thrown up. My dad had worked on a lot of sites then and would advise which builders to avoid.

They said the new builds are now to a very high standard and did push me towards a new build. Our engineer said when buying a house in 80’s expect to need to change windows and insulate in the near future.

Wildly Boaring

cubatahavana wrote: »

What’s BCAR?

Building control regs and most importantly the Assigner Certifier role

JimmyVik

MicktheMan wrote: »

Maybe +/- €1000 per annum ish for a standard 3 bed semi.

I wouldn't be getting too hung up on the energy rating and its effect on bills though. All things being equal, in general, the bills should be lower for better ratings but when it comes to housing all things are definitely not equal unfortunately.

For example, I live in a 210 sqm 1970's house with an official BER of C1. If my house was to perform as a C1, you would expect by bills for heating and hot water to be around the €2,200 mark. My actual average annual bills over the last five years for heating & hot water is €650, equivalent to a BER somewhere in the A1/A2 region.

Why is this? Imo, it is because there are too many assumptions and not enough testing of existing houses to make the BER system anything other than a box ticking waste of time for the existing housing segment.

Btw, you can also get so called A rated houses performing in real life like a C or a D rating.

Similar experience.
My parents house is a D rated 3 bed detached bungalow with Granny flat and a garage thats heated too. Probably about 1400sqft altogether.
Heating bill is a smidge over €1100 for the last 12 months.

JimmyVik

ongarite wrote: »

I don't get the fascination with front gardens that people are harking on about in older houses.
In my many COVID 5km walks in D15, the vast majority have been fully converted to multi-car driveways.
What little garden is left is just for decoration.

Sound-proofing is significantly improved in newer builds mainly due to the new building regulations which call for better air-tightness.
Parents live in early 90s semi-d; you can hear light switches being turned on next door, electric shower being run, etc..
I live in celtic tiger build apartment; can't hear anything either side due to fire-regulations on adjoining units but can hear plenty from above.
Sibling in A3 rated 2019 build semi-d; can't hear a thing from adjoining neighbour & they have young child

I wouldnt be interested in a front garden either tbh, but i would like a big back garden. The back gardens I see nowadays on new houses are TINY.

The Mulk

JimmyVik wrote: »

I wouldnt be interested in a front garden either tbh, but i would like a big back garden. The back gardens I see nowadays on new houses are TINY.

I think when people say front gardens they really mean off street parking.
My 'front garden' is cobblelock driveway with a small hedge, but i can safely park both cars there.
A lot of these new builds have shared parking and it can be a mess, and cause a lot of hassle, especially with apartments, duplexes etc.

mloc123

The Mulk wrote: »

I think when people say front gardens they really mean off street parking.
My 'front garden' is cobblelock driveway with a small hedge, but i can safely park both cars there.
A lot of these new builds have shared parking and it can be a mess, and cause a lot of hassle, especially with apartments, duplexes etc.

The design I do not like is something like this, where you sitting room window is right up on the footpath...



In fact everything about that house is what I hate about new builds.... narrow small, 3 storey footprint, right on the footpath

Edit: link to the house - https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/mullen-park-straffan-road-maynooth-co-kildare/2558806

cubatahavana

mloc123 wrote: »

The design I do not like is something like this, where you sitting room window is right up on the footpath...


In fact everything about that house is what I hate about new builds.... narrow small, 3 storey footprint, right on the footpath

So, in this scenario, the car park is off street but one car behinf another one? that looks like a nightmare. They are super narrow too.

The one we bought is like the photo attached, with space for two cars in the front and a back garden of around 80 sqm (not big by any means, but I grew up in an apartment in Spain, so more than sufficient for me). Ours, even though is 3 floors up, its not too narrow

awec

cubatahavana wrote: »

So, in this scenario, the car park is off street but one car behinf another one? that looks like a nightmare. They are super narrow too.

The one we bought is like the photo attached, with space for two cars in the front and a back garden of around 80 sqm (not big by any means, but I grew up in an apartment in Spain, so more than sufficient for me). Ours, even though is 3 floors up, its not too narrow

This is quite common in Ireland, even in older houses.

Wildly Boaring

mloc123 wrote: »

The design I do not like is something like this, where you sitting room window is right up on the footpath...



In fact everything about that house is what I hate about new builds.... narrow small, 3 storey footprint, right on the footpath

Edit: link to the house - https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/mullen-park-straffan-road-maynooth-co-kildare/2558806

Awful yokes.
But not your only choice as new build
The 3 bed on our estate have space to 2 cars out the front. 2 story. Reasonable garden

I'd add. If people buy these houses with no front or rear garden and 3 story then builders will build them.
Far more units per site.

Building housing is an incredible fickly business. Builders will be told to stop a certain type of house in a development and move to the better sellers over night.
Buyers' behaviour has an immediate knock-on

cubatahavana

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Awful yokes.
But not your only choice as new build
The 3 bed on our estate have space to 2 cars out the front. 2 story. Reasonable garden

I'd add. If people buy these houses with no front or rear garden and 3 story then builders will build them.
Far more units per site.

Building housing is an incredible fickly business. Builders will be told to stop a certain type of house in a development and move to the better sellers over night.
Buyers' behaviour has an immediate knock-on

400k in kildare, Pricey enough

Dolbhad

The reason we went second hand is the space. We have good front and back garden. More importantly we are not overlook. It’s a detached house and the layout of the estate is that the houses were spread out a good bit so not on top of each other.

We had viewed a detached new build but we were so close to the houses on either side, it didn’t feel detached. Also the back garden were tiny and Social housing would be behind us. The new build was the same as the second hand we got. We are not overlooked to the back and you can’t see into neighbours house so it feels so private. It’s more mature so loads of trees and bushes and since it’s not overlooked the sun we get in now is lovely. Can’t wait to see what it’s like in the Summer. Big driveways that fit three cars so no one has to park on the estate road.

We decided we can upgrade in time heating and insulation but the location we couldn’t change. So that’s why we stuck with a Second hand house.

dubstepper

We were renting a relatively new build, maybe like 10 years old, before we bought a second hand C rating. We definitely noticed the difference in warmth.

When choosing it does fall into items that you can fix up and things that can't.

- You can make an older house warmer. It can cost but you can tip away at it.
- You can suss our what your neighbours are like in an old build but unknown with new build.
- Social housing in new builds could be an issue. When you get something for free you may not value it as much as someone who has paid from their own pocket. Perhaps not the most PC opinion but I find it's true in general (not all cases!).
- Definitely smaller gardens in new builds.
- Some of the new builds have most of their space upstairs. The footprint of the house can be small, so you may have lots of bedroom but not a lot of space downstairs. Some older houses have a kitchen and 2 reception rooms.
- Often new build estates lack trees/greenery. It could be a factor of the newness but I think its more to do with money.
- I question the value of a new build. The builder puts the price they want then have to a VAT on it. I was looking at a couple of expensive new builds and they were all about the amount of the VAT over second hand. For instance these houses for 1.6 face a block of stylish apartments. Overpriced for the area (I grew up around here). My brother has a second hand house about 200 meters from these which is about 500K.
- Heating bills in poorer BER rating can be expensive for larger houses.

If you are a cold creature it is a no brainer to go with the A rated. Just not if you take a broader view of it. IMHO.

JimmyVik

dubstepper wrote: »

We were renting a relatively new build, maybe like 10 years old, before we bought a second hand C rating. We definitely noticed the difference in warmth.

When choosing it does fall into items that you can fix up and things that can't.

- You can make an older house warmer. It can cost but you can tip away at it.
- You can suss our what your neighbours are like in an old build but unknown with new build.
- Social housing in new builds could be an issue. When you get something for free you may not value it as much as someone who has paid from their own pocket. Perhaps not the most PC opinion but I find it's true in general (not all cases!).
- Definitely smaller gardens in new builds.
- Some of the new builds have most of their space upstairs. The footprint of the house can be small, so you may have lots of bedroom but not a lot of space downstairs. Some older houses have a kitchen and 2 reception rooms.
- Often new build estates lack trees/greenery. It could be a factor of the newness but I think its more to do with money.
- I question the value of a new build. The builder puts the price they want then have to a VAT on it. I was looking at a couple of expensive new builds and they were all about the amount of the VAT over second hand. For instance these houses for 1.6 face a block of stylish apartments. Overpriced for the area (I grew up around here). My brother has a second hand house about 200 meters from these which is about 500K.
- Heating bills in poorer BER rating can be expensive for larger houses.

If you are a cold creature it is a no brainer to go with the A rated. Just not if you take a broader view of it. IMHO.

I just turn on the heat when im cold

ToxicPaddy

Was renting an apartment for a few years, think it was D rated. Spending approx €200 every 2 months on gas heating during the winter period and about €150 on electricity and both of us worked in office during the day so no one there between 9 and 6pm.

The house is an A2 rating now and our electricity bill for heating, lighting and being at home all day with the lockdown, working from home so running PCs, laptops etc, cooking during the day and we are hitting around €230 every 2 months for everything.

I reckon that will drop now as we were having heating issues so had to get freestanding heaters to compensate for the last while.

Should realistically drop below €200 every 2 months and go lower again if we get out of lockdown and go back to work.

Definitely a noticeable difference between C/D and A rated house which is definitely a plus on the new builds but there seems to be also a lot going for the second hand houses too.

dubstepper

JimmyVik wrote: »

I just turn on the heat when im cold

No flies on you

JimmyVik

dubstepper wrote: »

No flies on you

Amazing the amount of people I know complaining that their house or apartment is cold and it turns out because they wont turn on the heat

Eric Cartman

JimmyVik wrote: »

Amazing the amount of people I know complaining that their house or apartment is cold and it turns out because they wont turn on the heat

Absolutely , people will spend endless amounts of money to save money on the heating they're not putting on anyway.

dubstepper

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Absolutely , people will spend endless amounts of money to save money on the heating they're not putting on anyway.

I think you are missing the point. You could put your heat on all day long and have a lovely warm house. The problem is it needs to be paid for.


It is better to spend money improving the efficiency of your home's use of heat than just turning it on and letting it escape.



Unless money is not an issue.

The Mulk

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Was renting an apartment for a few years, think it was D rated. Spending approx €200 every 2 months on gas heating during the winter period and about €150 on electricity and both of us worked in office during the day so no one there between 9 and 6pm.

The house is an A2 rating now and our electricity bill for heating, lighting and being at home all day with the lockdown, working from home so running PCs, laptops etc, cooking during the day and we are hitting around €230 every 2 months for everything.

I reckon that will drop now as we were having heating issues so had to get freestanding heaters to compensate for the last while.

Should realistically drop below €200 every 2 months and go lower again if we get out of lockdown and go back to work.

Definitely a noticeable difference between C/D and A rated house which is definitely a plus on the new builds but there seems to be also a lot going for the second hand houses too.

Do you have Solar PV panels?
I've got my house efficient heating wise(gas), with insulation, new boiler, new windows and Solar water heating(this was in when i bought the house).
Next is the electricity usage, but beyond installing PV panels i'm not sure where the improvements could be.

Eric Cartman

dubstepper wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. You could put your heat on all day long and have a lovely warm house. The problem is it needs to be paid for.


It is better to spend money improving the efficiency of your home's use of heat than just turning it on and letting it escape.



Unless money is not an issue.

I think you're missing my point, is that people spend on insulation, A rated homes etc.. and then still won't turn on the heating and complain its cold.

cubatahavana

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think you're missing my point, is that people spend on insulation, A rated homes etc.. and then still won't turn on the heating and complain its cold.

We are averaging 2-3 hours per day of heating in a 4 bed, 165sqm A3 semiD. This is with my wife working from home all day. I always think it’s better not to have to use energy and spend that money on insulation and other technologies. Better for the earth.

hao123

cubatahavana wrote: »

We are averaging 2-3 hours per day of heating in a 4 bed, 165sqm A3 semiD. This is with my wife working from home all day. I always think it’s better not to have to use energy and spend that money on insulation and other technologies. Better for the earth.

Hi cubatahavana, what’s the monthly bill like in your new home? we’ll be moving into a A3 new build similar size as yours, with underfloor heating and air to water heat pump, only on electricity, just curious about the bill.

And thanks for your advice in another thread, we are on course to close our current and new home on the same day at end of Feb, finger crossed!

dubstepper

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think you're missing my point, is that people spend on insulation, A rated homes etc.. and then still won't turn on the heating and complain its cold.

Rarely hear people with A rated home complain about cold tbh.

seenn00J

dubstepper wrote: »

Rarely hear people with A rated home complain about cold tbh.

Me neither, although I do hear a lot of them complaining about the house being too hot/stuffy in the summer, needing windows open to sleep at night, etc.

cubatahavana

hao123 wrote: »

Hi cubatahavana, what’s the monthly bill like in your new home? we’ll be moving into a A3 new build similar size as yours, with underfloor heating and air to water heat pump, only on electricity, just curious about the bill.

And thanks for your advice in another thread, we are on course to close our current and new home on the same day at end of Feb, finger crossed!

Didn't get a bill yet. I'm estimating after reading the meter a 120-130 bill for gas for 2 months. We don't have a A2W pump in our new place, so you will have only electricity. I am expecting an electricity bill of around 100 for 2 months (we have solar panels)

Congrats and hopefully you'll be inside your new property soon enough!

JimmyVik

cubatahavana wrote: »

We are averaging 2-3 hours per day of heating in a 4 bed, 165sqm A3 semiD. This is with my wife working from home all day. I always think it’s better not to have to use energy and spend that money on insulation and other technologies. Better for the earth.

We heated the house here for 1 hour today. Parents are retired and in all day every day and ive been working from home since March, so there is always someone in the house.

Probably be 2 or 3 hours when the weather gets cold from tomorrow.
The house is a D rated detatched bungalow with a granny flat heated as well.

Total area probably similar to yours.

cubatahavana

JimmyVik wrote: »

We heated the house here for 1 hour today. Parents are retired and in all day every day and ive been working from home since March, so there is always someone in the house.

Probably be 2 or 3 hours when the weather gets cold from tomorrow.
The house is a D rated detatched bungalow with a granny flat heated as well.

Total area probably similar to yours.

What temp do you heat it up to? With my wife it needs to be 22 degrees or she complains

With heating off, house doesn't go below 18.5 degrees

cubatahavana

I don't know if anybody said this, but there are no bidding wars with a new build

Casati

It’s not just insultation, new builds are better built than anything since the turn of the last century and are built to last- specs much higher with more steel beams, wider walls, higher spec roofing and indeed for the most part much higher finishes.

Air tight homes with air recovery systems are a pleasure to live in compared to older drafts houses.

Noise is greatly reduced in a well constructed new houses, triple glazed windows, lack of air vents making them a lot quieter. Fire regs are greatly improved too. Wiring is generally adequate versus the totally inadequate one or two points per room common up to maybe ten years

ToxicPaddy

The Mulk wrote: »

Do you have Solar PV panels?
I've got my house efficient heating wise(gas), with insulation, new boiler, new windows and Solar water heating(this was in when i bought the house).
Next is the electricity usage, but beyond installing PV panels i'm not sure where the improvements could be.

Not yet, I'm looking at a few options.

PV panels with a battery pack and maybe even a small micro turbine again for topping up the battery pack.

The plan is to essentially have options and a backup plan if there are any power outages along with cheaper electricity bills.

This is very much a long term project though, so nothing may happen for 4-5 year. We are focused on paying off as much of the mortgage as possible with them aim of having a lump sum to knock off the principal at the end of the 5 year fixed.

If all that goes to plan, we will start with the PV panels and a battery pack, 5kWh to start with and grow from there if required though I seriously doubt we will need anything bigger.