Rifle Training/Coaching

Cass

This is our new thread for the purpose of centralising all discussion on techniques, training guides and coaching tips for the various rifle shooting disciplines.

Wadi14

Saying I suggested the thread I suppose I may start it off.
Does anyone here use a training plan and if so , what do you include in it?

extremetaz

How far down that rabbit hole would you like to go?
Here's snap from my old ISSF training diary - and for the record, I was only ever mid-pack in the rankings at my best (granted 10m Air is no playground if you want to get much higher).




edit: There are a few on here who will recognise that particular training diary formatting.

Cass

Its been a while and unfortunately i don't have my "bible" to hand but i kept a book of loads and training. For F-Class the two went hand in hand. Load development had to be accompanied by competition type shooting.

First thing i always done (before even getting to the line) was record date and time. Then the average wind conditions, directions, temperature, humidity, whether its gusting or constant, which rifle i was using, the load/ammo, distance, etc. No detail was too minute, and better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

While i practicsed in string shooting i also allowed 45 seconds per shot to somehow compensate for Bisley style (rotation shooting among two to three shooters per line). I had score cards to record my scope settings, adjustments i made, my point of hold and eventually the point of impact.

I never shot alone. I always had someone behind me on a spotting scope with a score card, wind meter and they would record the wind (granted at my firing point) as i shot. They also recorded the flag directions/intensity for each shot to see if my call was close to what actual conditions were. They also made note of their call and we'd compare notes later to see if mine was close to their call.

It could be considered complicated and included a lot of data to sieve through later but it did help.

The other benefit of shooting with another shooter, separate to the spotter, was they would make note of their call for my shots, as well as watch my recoil management, setup, trigger pull and if i'm making unconscious decisions such as chasing the bull.

Wadi14

Thanks guys this is what I'm after, and want to get this out there, I believe more shooters should have a plan especially before any training whether at home dry firing or shooting at the range. Don't just go fire off loads of rounds and say I was away training.
And it needs to be recorded, I'm going to do a lot more recording when I get back shooting, and hope to try and push the old .22 out to 300 just for the fun of it.

extremetaz, is there anywhere online where one can learn how to input data into those books?
I don't know if phrased that right.

JP22

Before you start a training regime and recording, I recommend you first do some ammo testing. Its a pointless exercise and expensive in wasting ammo thats does not shoot well in your particular rifle.

Lets take RF Benchrest at 50yds as an example - hard to hit those pesky little dots - common ammo used is RWS R50, Eley Team/Match/Tenex and Lapua Midal+/CentreX - all high end and expensive ammo.

You need to test several varieties of ammo to determine which your rifle likes best, in other words which one it shoots most consistently with.

If don't have a match grade rifle and you shoot at larger type targets you can test less expensive ammo BUT it still needs to shoot accurately.

Start off simple with recording the basic stuff.

Day/date,
Location,
Firearm used,
Ammo used (make and note lot numbers),
Record the weather, especially the wind, if wind changes, record details plus the time,
The lane you shot in (each lane is slightly different (wind effects),
Use wind flags, at least one to begin with.

Before every session you should zero/re-zero and record the details.

extremetaz

Wadi14 wrote: »

extremetaz, is there anywhere online where one can learn how to input data into those books?
I don't know if phrased that right.

That particular book was designed and laid out by our very own Sparks (IIRC) so it's a unique one and very detailed. I'll provide a reference run down below.

It's actually quite handy that Cass posted his bit right after mine as the two breakdowns give you both sides of the sport in a relatively isolated context.

10m air requires very little account for environmentals as it's shot indoors; and there's no recoil to manage, so what you're left with is what we'd call the 'internal ' processes for the most part - being aware of your own form and condition; as well as a triple-distilled attention to basic principles such as zero position, sight picture and trigger discipline.


Cass then brings in the environmentals and recoil management side of things which are the next layer above all of this (IMHO).


It's good that you mention the 22 because (short of PCP) this gives you the best ability to isolate your 'internal' form from the external factors until you get well acquainted with how things should look and feel to you before you even consider the conditions that you're shooting in and begin learning how to accurately judge them.

Cass also mentions having a spotter/coach - and this is invaluable regardless of the range, rifle or round. Having an experienced eye watch you shoot strings will bring you along farther and faster than you could ever imagine by giving you the means to correlate what you're feeling and seeing from your firing position, with what you're actually doing. Without it, you simply won't have a convincing grasp of the latter.

extremetaz

extremetaz wrote: »

Right - so the rundown.

Date & Time - self explanatory.
Location is important and where relevant I'd include a compass bearing for the range you're on as well which will speak to sun angles.

Event speaks to mental state and endurance, and is a useful refence to have as your dataset grows.

Range conditions - hot/cold, wet/sunny/foggy/cloudy, ... all speak to your ability to perceive the target, your concentration and endurance, baseline acceptable variance in PoI for any given zero, etc..

Physical condition & Stress level - are you hungry, cold, tired, dehydrated, distracted. When did you last take strenuous exercise. Work/life related frustrations affecting focus... the internal and mental landscape which dictates your ability to focus (mentally and physiologically), be consistent, retain fine motor control, relax (mentally and physically)...

Objective/Goal - ALWAYS HAVE ONE!
It can be as simple as 'Recreational plinking' or 'de-stress session' - but always have one. The context for everything else which follows relies on it.

Plan - Always state the approach you are going to take to achieve the Objective/Goal. Doesn't have to be anything long or wordy, but it helps you to drill down into the specifics of your form and performance which is the only way you'll get to the point of being able to discriminate between different factors as you progress. When you start out, this will be high level stuff; but as you progress and get to you yourself better this will gradually become more and more specific.

In the image above, by 'maintenance' that means that I'm just practicing what I've developed to that point and looking for the weaknesses in it. The context for that word comes from everything which precedes that page in the diary. This should highlight how personal the whole training diary thing is - you need to be able to understand your records and at most, communicate that record to a coach/spotter as required, but that's it. So write it for yourself, don't worry about trying to use other peoples lexicons. You'll notice mention of jackets etc.. in ISSF supporting (and highly regulated) clothing is the norm. The fit and condition of it matter, as does how you set up things like slings. In field shooting similar attention should be payed to out jackets and layering as this all speaks to your ability to consistently mount the rifle and manage any recoil.

Results is fairly self explantory, but the diagrams beside and below it likely need some detailing.

On the right of it you have a column of ratings from 1-5 (poor to great) and my explanations of each lie below with the caveat that if Sparks see's fit to correct any of these than do take that as being better - this is merely my interpretation.
Outer position - Adherence to textbook form for your given discipline.
Inner position - Mental state, comfort level in firing position.
From here on down it's all shot routine related:
Mounting the rifle - consistency, comfort, balance, interface to shoulder, cheek weld, palm weld, cant, etc...
Zero point - consistency, stability
Breathing - consistency, comfort
Hold - consistency, stability, comfort
Aiming - sight alignment, stability, comfort (eyes), consistency
Trigger control - 1st stage take up, comfort sitting at 2nd stage, draw rate at 2nd stage (heavily influenced by everything which comes before it!)
Follow-Through - Mostly discipline (which speaks to mindfulness and focus). Hold position to your preferred count before breaking
Recoil - Even in air there is some, and we use it to gauge our consistency. Bottom line is that it should look exactly the same every time.
Shot plan - Did you stick to it? Does it work?
Mental state - Rank your focus and endurance throughout the exercise
Physical condition - Rank your stress, fatigue, comfort, etc.. levels throughout the exercise. It's very common in standing disciplines to have foot, hip and lower back niggles; much like supporting wrist niggles in prone - all speaks to the need to dial thing in better for any given duration.

The Feet thing then is a weight bias and an azimuth to target - very specific to standing disciplines in this instance but there are others for Prone, kneeling, sitting I'm sure. A very useful reference which I don't appear to have populated in this instance for some reason.

Score sheet - Sparks only gave us the ability to record anything above a 9.0 which is just great for your self esteem in the early days. :P:rolleyes:
Ostensibly, this is a representation of a 60-shot match. Each vertical being one shot and each horizontal being a score from 9.0 to 10.9 in increments of 0.1.

The thinking here is that as you get better, that line becomes higher and flatter making it very easy to spot the 'off' days. If you were to take a look at those graphs for the likes of Conor McDermottroe, Ciara Deevy, Aisling Miller or Siobhain Scarlett, it would basically be a flat line about 3/4's of the way up the verticle.


The remaining sections constitute your reflections on the session and are fairly self explanatory.

Feisar

Well amn't I glad I didn't post my training plan, "pick one of the fundamentals and focus on it".

extremetaz wrote: »

Score sheet - Sparks only gave us the ability to record anything above a 9.0 which is just great for your self esteem in the early days. :P:rolleyes:

Funny, this made me think instantly of my old mechanical drawing teacher not allowing us to us a rubber.

Thank you for the above, very insightful.

Wadi14

extremetaz, thanks for that detailed rundown.

extremetaz

Feisar wrote: »

Well amn't I glad I didn't post my training plan, "pick one of the fundamentals and focus on it".

Nothing wrong with that either - in fact what I've listed is basically just a super low level decomposition of precisely that.
As I alluded to in the beginning, it's all about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

These days, having kids and higher priorities to training, I enjoy the 360 bullseye stuff at Midlands - mainly because I can be competitive even without going to any serious effort. It's just fun field position plinking and I keep a far lighter diary for those events.

Main thing is to enjoy your time behind the trigger, and that's a function of your goals. For the serious folks in the ISSF circles this means paying substantial attention to your diet, hydration, exercise and sleep patterns for days ahead of a competition; not to mention the kit maintenance and preparation routines.

These days I just avoid caffeine until after I've shot. :D

extremetaz

Found a fully populated entry from when I was about as good as I managed to get:



and here's the score sheet to go with it

extremetaz

...and here's a good example of what I keep these days:

Cass

No pictures, well not for me. Seems the content is private.

extremetaz

Apologies - seems I hadn't jumped through the appropriate number of hoops to obtain an embeddable link from google photos. :rolleyes:

Feisar

I can see them

Cass

Yeah, they're up now.

Feisar

A question on the prone position off a bipod/rest. I realize they are two different mediums so if the answer is different for either please advise.

When pulling the rifle back into the shoulder how much force should I be exerting? I've read a lot that it should be the weight of the rifle. So lie on yer back, put the rifle on the shoulder pointed into the air and that's the sort of pressure one should exert on the rifle.
Now for example, a Sako TRG with scope and all the trimmings would be up on 6.5/7 Kgs? That's a fair bit of force to be applying. Also what does the weight of the rifle have to do with it? Surely how the system recoils is the more important factor? i.e a featherweight rifle should be held tighter than the above Sako example.

JP22

Common mistake when holding a rifle/pistol, don't think of your hold as force, you are not trying to choke a turkey.

Anytime you hold a firearm with excessive force your put strain on your body, the muscles get tired ultimately leading to weakness and spasm's. These muscular spasms (= movements) are now transferred to the firearm which leads to inaccurate shooting.

The firearms weight plus your hands/arms/shoulders/body will absorb recoil from the shot, the force/grip you use should not be excessive, rather just enough to comfortably hold and more importantly control the firearm.

Feisar

JP22 wrote: »

Common mistake when holding a rifle/pistol, don't think of your hold as force, you are not trying to choke a turkey.

Anytime you hold a firearm with excessive force your put strain on your body, the muscles get tired ultimately leading to weakness and spasm's. These muscular spasms (= movements) are now transferred to the firearm which leads to inaccurate shooting.

The firearms weight plus your hands/arms/shoulders/body will absorb recoil from the shot, the force/grip you use should not be excessive, rather just enough to comfortably hold and more importantly control the firearm.

Not arguing with you are saying at all. The advice over on snipershide is to pull the rifle into the shoulder to the same weight as the rifle. Which seems like a lot IMHO.

Wadi14

Body relaxed load the bipod , during covid most of us have a few extra stones to put behind it.

badaj0z

The important word is consistency. It does not matter how much you load the bipod or pull the rifle into the shoulder, firing from a rest or bipod, bench or prone. What matters is that you do it the same way every time. Changes in shoulder or hand pressure mean that the recoil is different each time. If the recoil is different, the point of impact changes. A light hold will allow the rifle to move backwards more easily. A heavy hold will stop the rifle from moving backwards. The energy has to go somewhere so the barrel pivots upwards. This is why many bench rest shooters use "free recoil" ,i.e. no hold so the human interaction is minimised.



The amount of pivoting depends on how and where you hold the gun.
If you change the hold, you change the amount of pivoting hence you change the angle of the barrel.
If you change the angle of the barrel, you change where the bullet will hit.

Underlying principles of Accuracy


Minimise your effect on the gun
Minimise the amount of muscle effort
Maximise the effect of the aids
Rests, bags, slings, bench, ground
Be consistent-once you have arrived at a ”comfortable” position, return to it every time.

JP22

Lots of different info out there on marksmanship.

Years ago when I qualified as Instructor/Coach, I was always taught that excessive force/hold on the rifle strains the body, muscles get tired ultimately leading to spasm's which in turn are transferred to the firearm. End of day nothing beats experience and time on the range to hone ones skills and as you said - Consistency is most important.

The position and hold must be firm enough to support the rifle.
The rifle must point naturally at the target, without any physical effort.
Sight alignment or aiming must be correct.
The shot must be released and followed through without any disturbance of the position.

I shoot BR and use "free recoil" to minimise contact with the rifle.

Feisar

JP22 wrote: »

Lots of different info out there on marksmanship.

Years ago when I qualified as Instructor/Coach, I was always taught that excessive force/hold on the rifle strains the body, muscles get tired ultimately leading to spasm's which in turn are transferred to the firearm. End of day nothing beats experience and time on the range to hone ones skills and as you said - Consistency is most important.

The position and hold must be firm enough to support the rifle.
The rifle must point naturally at the target, without any physical effort.
Sight alignment or aiming must be correct.
The shot must be released and followed through without any disturbance of the position.

I shoot BR and use "free recoil" to minimise contact with the rifle.

See this is my understanding so I am struggling to understand the idea of pulling the rifle into the shoulder equal to the weight of the rifle.

Thanks for the replies.

JP22

Feisar wrote: »

See this is my understanding so I am struggling to understand the idea of pulling the rifle into the shoulder equal to the weight of the rifle.
Thanks for the replies.

Ill try to explain, bear with me.

Take a bog standard rifle weighing about 8 lbs, the average trigger pull is say 3 to 5 lbs (all rifles differ). If I understand it correctly you are using a hold with an equal force to the rifles own weight.

You can easily squeeze a 4lb trigger with just one finger, the rifle only weighs twice this and together your fingers/hands/arms can apply multiples of this.

Other example, some learner drivers grip the steering so hard, its as if they are hanging on for dear life, fingers are white from the force they are applying.

The position and hold must be firm enough to comfortably support the rifle, not to choke it to death.

Practice, practice..... is the name of the game.

Feisar

JP22 wrote: »

Ill try to explain, bear with me.

Take a bog standard rifle weighing about 8 lbs, the average trigger pull is say 3 to 5 lbs (all rifles differ). If I understand it correctly you are using a hold with an equal force to the rifles own weight.

You can easily squeeze a 4lb trigger with just one finger, the rifle only weighs twice this and together your fingers/hands/arms can apply multiples of this.

Other example, some learner drivers grip the steering so hard, its as if they are hanging on for dear life, fingers are white from the force they are applying.

The position and hold must be firm enough to comfortably support the rifle, not to choke it to death.

Practice, practice..... is the name of the game.

I get you now . Thanks for the patience.

badaj0z

It seems to me that many of the people posting on this thread, and possibly multiples of this number watching this thread, could benefit from some coaching. One of the best ways to learn any sport is to get some theory about the best way to do something and then to practise it, with the coaches looking on to advise. The latter can come from friends or from fellow club members. If you have friends who can provide this, lean on them. If not, join a club which has some structured coaching. The club I am in has had a rush of new members last year, when we were allowed to open. We will be running such a course when we reopen. It is a mixture of theory and practise, run on our range, at the firing point. Agenda is as follows:

Club Shooting Skills Course

Introduction and Welcome
Safety rules
Underlying principles
Consistency
Scope mounting and sighting in
Range estimation
Shooting positions-Rifle and Pistol
Competitions-- Club and National
Cleaning and care of firearms
Summary

GooseB

I do not think this is a good idea as the threads are buried too deep for people to find.

Maybe the Training/Coaching threads could be made Stickies by the forum moderators to make them easy to find and so that they don't get lost if there hasn't been any posts made in a while. Worth doing?

Cass

Already done - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058151171

Feisar

Might be of interest:

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/TeachingRiflePositions.pdf?vers=052819

Feisar

Anyone messing about with a 22LR at long range?

I've been playing around with it at 338 yards, (the backstop at the range). I'd hit two clays in a row and then the bullet will go high or low. 10 feet per second difference is 2 inches at that distance.

Breaking clays at that distance is satisfying though!