Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456401#Comment_121456401

The good old "Brexit is a success because it wasn't as bad as people said". Not that Brexit was good just not as bad.

Then he goes on a rant about how bad the EU is because the US is out performing it but says not about the UK vs US.

Also is blatantly twisting things by saying the UK has no "nasty nationalism" because it hasn't had a new party emerge in parliament but he knows well it's a FPTP issue and the Tories are their disgusting nationalists.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456401#Comment_121456401

Poor form to just dump a link here with a snappy comment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456495#Comment_121456495

Basically this.

I always find comparisons by columnists between Brussels and Washington to be a bit disingenuous. Washington is the central government of the United States whereas the European Commission is not a governing body, but a regulatory one. Are these people advocating for a United States of Europe? I doubt it. It makes some sense to compare the two but throwing shade on the EU because the US is doing well is a poor argument.

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447927#Comment_121447927

Worth pointing out the likes of those who parrot out these tropes are often partitionists/neo unionists or British nationalists who prefer to not even recognise Irish independence.

Even, Britain discussing Irish sovereignty is absurd while they own part of the island and are the root cause of the “Troubles”.

Comparing Britain leaving the EU to the “independence” of any country they invaded or occupied is laughable - something only a gammon could come up with

Reminds me of British comedian John Oliver in 2016 :

“ — "First, Britain was already independent. In fact, it's what many other countries celebrate their independence from," Oliver said. “

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448169#Comment_121448169

Correct, and there is no acknowledgment in the amateur mainstream media about this.

Essentially, these people styling themselves as “Irish nationalists” and British nationalists.

They are six degrees away from the British army and loyalist terrorists, but as it does not involve Sinn Féin, RTÉ, IT, etc as usual, ignore it - instead they focus on “Irish were immigrants once sh1te” rather than call them out.

A Sinn Féin victory would be interesting if only to see how they deal with Rowan Croft et al, a Brit soldier claiming he and his squaddies knows what best for Ireland

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442218#Comment_121442218

I didn't realise going to private schools and/or elite universities was in itself proof of qualification for office!

But the privately educated are massively over-represented in Irish politics, and even more so in the UK's.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456865#Comment_121456865

The only real qualification you need in the UK is the ability to impress the relevant committee of your local party.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456401#Comment_121456401

He mentions Nissan investing in their car plant but disingenuously fails to mention Honda closing theirs.

I do find a Brit pointing fingers at "aggressively rightwing politics" in the EU to be rather ironic.

joeysoap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456865#Comment_121456865

Teachers anyway.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456928#Comment_121456928

It's essentially a well paid version of the clowns who used to come on here every few months waving an article about a single piece of investment and proclaiming how wrong we all were.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456757#Comment_121456757

Really?

Yesterday:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/12/04/spicebag-welcome-to-the-new-ireland-warts-anger-and-all-the-choices-we-make-now-will-determine-our-future/

Ireland has also become a pet project for the British far right. Ireland has been graced with the presence of Tommy Robinson, celebrity hate-monger and founder of the English Defence League.

While many on the nationalist right are appalled by generally unionist right-wing “Brits“ sticking their noses in, the relationship does connect the Irish right to a sophisticated and continent-spanning network of networks, and all the tactics and support that brings with it.

Saturday:

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2023/12/02/building-for-a-long-time-how-the-global-far-right-jumped-on-dublins-anti-immigration-riots/

Last week’s events sent these discussions into overdrive and not just in the UK, where prominent far-right figures such as former British National Party president Nick Griffin and anti-Muslim provocateur Tommy Robinson have been regularly discussing the violence.

Last September:

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2023/09/21/who-are-the-oireachtas-protesters-and-what-were-they-protesting-against/

Some of those in attendance are veteran activists in the anti-immigration and conspiracy theory sphere. Rowan Croft, an ex-British soldier, who came to prominence spreading the Q Anon conspiracy theory through YouTube and attempting to tie it to Irish matters, was there after a long absence from the far-right scene.

ancapailldorcha

He's not wrong to say that it's not a disaster but that's a terribly low bar to set for pretty much anything. A well-paid columnist who arguably doesn't work all that hard is probably not well placed to say in any case.

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456984#Comment_121456984

True, but due to the fact they are constantly in the headlines and coupled with the absurdity of the whole thing, I still think it is quite minimal coverage.

Where is the prime time special, where is the Garda surveillance - they are subversives

Poppy seller/Royal British legionnaire Kenneth Geary of Santry - another combat wearing Walter Mitty

https://irelandsmostwantedsquads.blogspot.com/2020/09/ken-geary-aka-kenneth-geary.html?m=1

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457043#Comment_121457043

Wait how are they "constantly in the headlines" but "getting minimal coverage" ?

Peregrinus

Elliott has been a Brexit supporter since forever. By his standards this column is pretty weak, and is notable for what it doesn't say rather than what it does.

His "Brexit is not a disaster" line is not offered as a defence or vindication of Brexit. His point is just that the UK won't be rejoining any time soon, because Brexit would have to be an utter disaster for that to happen. He's probably right; the British public don't want to revisit Brexit if they can possibly avoid it, and it would have to be a disaster before they would accept that they couldn't avoid it.

Secondly, he doesn't pretend that Brexit has achieved very much. In fact he complains that "Brexit opportunities" have yet to be exploited.

He then glides into how the US has performed much better than the EU. I think we're supposed to infer that the UK, having cut its ties with the EU, has the Brexit opportunity of emulating the US but he doesn't actually say that, and he certainly doesn't discuss what that would entail. He complains about the EU having a "one size fits all" single currency but this doesn't make a lot of sense; after all, the US also has a "one size fits all" single currency. He complains about the EU's "neoliberal ideas" about controls on budget deficits; has he not noticed the US's recent sovereign debt crises arising out of legislated caps on government borrowing?

It's all a bit odd. In terms of economic policy Elliott is generally a man of the left. I doubt that he would advocate the UK economy being organised and run on US-style lines, so what exactly does he advocate the UK should do with its Brexit freedoms? He doesn't say, and his references to the US as a comparator don't make a lot of sense.

Finally, he points to the rise of "narrow nationalism" in the EU, and claims that the UK has not witnessed this, which he attributes to Brexit. That's obvious nonsense; the rise of narrow nationalism in the UK, and the degree of influence it has secured at the highest level of government, is one of the most striking features of recent UK political history. Elliott is an economic correspondent rather than a political correspondent but, seriously, it's hard to believe that he hasn't noticed this.

All in all, this is a weak and unconvincing endorsement of Brexit. I'm not sure that Elliott's heart is in it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456865#Comment_121456865

I never said it was. I just said you would expect the make up of a legislature to be weighted more towards those with a 3rd level degree than the general population.

Obviously the UK (and apparently Ireland, I really don't know the figures) are extremely weighted towards certain schools and certain universities. This is not a good thing. I just think it needs to be put in context and a) not have people lying about 70% of MPs being Oxbridge educated and b) acknowledge that no matter what it will never reflect the general make up of the population.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457262#Comment_121457262

3rd level education isn't the issue when discussing Westminster. Anyone can go to university.

The problem is how many of the cabinet and parliament went to the likes of Eton. A child these days actually has more ability to choose their gender than choose to go to one of these king maker secondary schools.

flatty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431818#Comment_121431818

When I ponder this, I always think how quickly Argentina for instance has moved in and out of default. If anything is potentially profitable, people have conveniently short memories.

I would be surprised if there is any significant move on the part of the UK in the next 20 years though. That is only four parliamentary terms.

Most likely would be a move towards a rubber stamp open visa (maybe).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457328#Comment_121457328

I never argued differently.

Someone said 70% of MPs went to Oxbridge which is a mistake/lie.

It is up for debate what the number should be, but suggesting it should reflect the general population level is also misguided.

flatty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457108#Comment_121457108

May I just say peregrinus, I enjoy your posts, and those of capailldorcha more than most anything else on the internet. They are concise, well informed, and beautifully written, and, well, that’s all really. Thank you for them.

ancapailldorcha

The thing I struggle with is that there are things that a UK government could do to boost growth here. The obvious one would be to link up Oxford, Cambridge, & London via high-speed rail and build more garden cities. Of course, the EU never stood in the way of this but now that we're out, it's a bit of a surprise that so much political airtime has been devoted to the restoration of imperial units and other trivial things instead of real wins that could be achieved with planning reform and investment. We just had a decade of low interest rates where we could have used borrowing at close to zero cost to properly invest in growth. Instead, we got Liz Truss looking manic while saying things like "pork markets" and "anti-growth coalition". Biotech, where my experience is, struggles to hire because of the absurd cost of living, even in places like Babraham which is very rural and has a small biotech cluster. It's not well connected and this could be remedied with enough determination from a sensible government.

Again, EU membership was never an impediment to a sensible industrial or infrastructural policy.

The other thing is that I struggle to identify a group more deserving of contempt than left wing Brexiters. I'm not referring to traditional Labour voters but those on the economic left who voted for what was essentially a Conservative disaster capitalist project. Brexit was never going to be based around workers, jobs, or unions but by the whims of press barons, oligarchs and Conservative party donors. This was fairly obvious at the time. David Cameron implemented devastating cuts so the idea that voting for Brexit would improve on that was patently ridiculous.

Podge_irl

They are building an (albeit slow) rail line from Oxford to Cambridge. Which will be wonderful as it is currently quicker to go on train via London, though hideously more expensive. It's an hour from Oxford to Paddington and 45 min Cambridge to King's Cross. Not sure high speed rail would add much there.

The real problem in both Oxford and Cambridge are their green belts that completely constrain any development.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456646#Comment_121456646

@ancapailldorcha "Poor form to just dump a link here with a snappy comment."

I don't know what you problem is with my post. This isn't the first time I have gotten a similar comment from you. I noticed you had no problem discussing the post and its' content with others.

Don't worry , I won't be posting here again. I know not to cross the moderators.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458413#Comment_121458413

He literally tells you what his problem is with your post 🤣

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458413#Comment_121458413

Mod Note: You failed to add anything worthwhile to your post. By the time I saw it, it had been responded to so I left it. However, I would have otherwise removed it as it did not meet the standards.

Secondly, as you claim to know how moderation works, then you will also be aware that the comment from ACD was clearly not in a mod capacity but was a normal observation so here was no need for a snide remark.

---end----

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456869#Comment_121456869

“MPs are not chosen by 'the people' - they are chosen by their local constituency parties: thirty-five men in grubby raincoats or thirty-five women in silly hats.” - Sir Humphrey

And this can be bypassed if they've been parachuted into a safe sea.

On the radio here I've heard ads advising business about how to get help for when the UK implement more of the rules next year.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459222#Comment_121459222

Even parachuted-in candidates have to get through the local constituency party.

It works like this:

• To seek nomination for the Tory party in any seat you must first be pre-approved by Conservative Central Office. They look at your "skills and attributes", and supposedly also do due diligence checks, although as we know these are not infallible.
• You can then present yourself to one (or more) local parties to seek nomination.
• A local party committee draws up a longlist of (up to 8) potential candidates from among those seeking nomination. But they travel to national headquarters do do this, and they do it with the, um, support of national party officials. It's at this point that the national party can use its influence to ensure that a favoured candidate gets onto the longlist for a safe seat. They also ensure that only one favoured candidates is on the longlist for each safe seat - they don't want favoured candidates knocking each other out.
• The longlisted candidates are then interviewed by the local party executive, who narrow it down to a shortlist, usually of 2 or 3. There's no formal mechanism by which the national party can intervene to ensure the favoured candidate is on the shortlist, but no doubt there are informal channels through which persuasion can be exerted, if necessary.
• The local party then holds a special general meeting, at which any party member can attend and vote. The meeting chooses one of the shortlisted individuals to be the candidate.

This full process only operates in a constituency that doesn't have sitting Tory MP or in which the sitting Tory MP is standing down. If there's a sitting Tory MP who wants to stand again, the local party executive can simply readopt them as the candidate without any long- or shortlisting of alternative candidates, and it is rare for this not to happen.

The Labour process is slightly different. There is no pre-approval of potential candidates; any party member of more than 12 months standing, and who is a member of a trade union, can seek a nomination. But the longlist for each constituency is not drawn up by the local party, but by the national party, so they can always put a favoured candidate on the longlist for a safe seat. The longlist is narrowed down to a shortlist by a local party committee, and a hustings is held at which rank-and-file members of the local party vote to choose a candidate.

In both cases, the national party can ensure you're on the longlist, and can exert some indirect influence to try to ensure that you make it to the shortlist. But you still have to face the local party members, who will have the choice of at least one other nominee.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457682#Comment_121457682

Hardly a surprise. Imperial units and blue passports are easy ways to shout independence when you are insecure about it.

Same reason Dev gave condolences over Hitler dying, it is to make a show of independence when you know, for economic reasons, you are not truly independent. Ireland largely had to follow UK rules in the 1940s (and later for a bit) due to economic reasons and now the UK needs to follow EU rules for economic reasons and so look for symbols to try and claim independence with.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457682#Comment_121457682

Nearly smashed my phone against a wall a few years ago listening to Eamonn McCann on a podcast talking absolute waffle about "Lexit".

"Useful idiot" does not even begin to describe anyone thick enough to fall for that whopper.

Did it ever occur to any of them to ponder why the UK was always trying to opt out of EU social legislation and worker protection?

yagan

Visiting an old Canarian haunt Ive returned to every few years and it's really noticeable how many union jack type businesses have shut up.

Interestingly where there were no curry houses before now there's several.

One of complaints the curry house owners had before brexit was about how hard it had become to hire curry house chefs, so I wonder if some have pivoted away from Britain.

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457085#Comment_121457085

Sure, the spectre and vocality of them but no proper thorough investigation - at least from ‘official Ireland’

similar, in fact, to Dublin City centre crime and lack of policing