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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Plus this opposition to the SM by Tories forgets that the main protagonist of it was their favourite - one Margaret Thatcher, who saw it a way of cutting the dreadful red tape that was involved moving something from one part of the EU to another. If the whole EU had the same standards, why the paperwork?

    Of course the Brexiteers never got the memo - did not understand it.

    This nonsense about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels decried by Brexiteers who have no problem with unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall - but of course, they call them Civil Servants - same function, just different title.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,786 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42

    Oh they fully understand it. They completely agree on the value of Unions and shared standards. They continually talk about the sacred union that is the UK.

    What they didn't like was being held accountable. That is all Brexit is. They wanted to remove any oversight so they could do as they please. And we have seen proof of that with the way the deal itself was rushed through without oversight or review. The way the NZ was passed without any review. They are even now fighting hard against Johnson being held to a committee of MP's.

    They also believed that since the UK is the centre of the world that the EU would simply give them whatever they wanted and they could enjoy the benefits of free trade without any of the oversight. And tbh if it hadn't been for NI then they probably would have gotten pretty close to that.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭ ambro25

    About that pilot license exchange: were these ever exchangeable between EU member states as licences within the common meaning of the word, associated with wheeled vehicles? Or are they considered more like professional qualifications, similarly to doctors, lawyers and other high-skill occupations?

    The recognition of professional qualifications between EU member states is nowhere near as straightforward and ‘automatic’, as many Europhiles would have you believe. I’m speaking from expert knowledge (in my professional field, which is not aircraft operation) and repeat experience with that.

    And the situation is far, far worse for the recognition of 3rd country (driving) licenses and professional qualifications which, so far as I am aware, remains a national prerogative only, unharmonised at the EU level.

    Where there is harmonisation, there is often a triple test (cumulative) associated with the right/privilege of using such license or qualification in a professional context, i.e. EU27 qualification, EU27 nationality and EU27 residence.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭ rock22

    The article refers to the pilot, Alex Braithwaite, trying to exchange his driving licence not his pilot licence. It might be possible if Portugal recognises UK driving licence and the pilot originally did his test in the UK. The problem might be that he is trying to exchange a German licence for which he never did a test ( Speculating here because we have insufficient information in the article, but it might be reasonable to assume teat the pilot worked in Germany and exchanged his UK driving licence for a German one when the UK was in the EU. But he now cannot exchange that licence for a Portuguese one because he never sat a test in Germany. Ireland has recognised UK licences but other EU countries may not have, especially as UK drivers drive on the 'wrong side' of the road).

    Either way, these difficulties are a direct result of Brexit and nothing else.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,047 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    I agree people don't become more conservative as they age. What what does happen is that some give less of a sht about things like free movement as their personal world contracts.

    And again this would only be a minority who's views when younger would have been flimsy to begin with. The "it was only a trade bloc" people probably were not thinking too deep about it in their youth.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    There is also the point that generals fight the last war.

    Matters that were important in ones youth become irrelevant in later life. The whole WW II environment mattered to those in the 1950s and 1960s but is irrelevant today. The real threat of nuclear war was important during the cold war in the 1960s. The Vietnam war mattered to those threatened with the draft. The financial crash effected us greatly, but we are over that now. Now globalisation is coming home to roost, with climate change becoming a reality.

    So, depending on one's age, one's political views are formed according to one's lived experience. Lifetime job - nah, I'll just retrain. Long commute - nah, I'll just get a job where I'll be able to work from home. Etc.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    That is not the point I was making.

    WW II was used as a propaganda weapon. Anyone who fell for that were just falling for propaganda.

    Those who lived through WW II learnt that the expression 'Do you not know there is a war on?' meant that one should not complain about current deprivation - just accept it, and get on with it. This flowed through the rationing that continued after the war. Words like 'thrift' and 'economise' and 'darning socks' and 'do without' have fallen from use - but are valid for those that predate the boomers. British (Tory) politicians invoke 'the Dunkirk spirit' by trying to make a major military disaster into some kind of victory - just more propaganda - usually by ones who have no experience of war.

    But that is politics. We are the product of our times.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,671 ✭✭✭✭ BlitzKrieg

    It's less they give a sht about things that would concern young people, its more likely that older people have more stuff that make conservatives more appealing to them. Someone in their 50's is more likely to own or be invested in a business of some size and they tend to be a homeowner in some fashion. 2 key areas that conservative policies tend to favour. Age has actually nothing to do with it beyond the odds of having one or both of these issues be important increases with age. It's why you can find young conservatives but they also happen to be people who (often with family help) got on to the property ladder really early or started a business right out of school or college, or simply will inherit all of that so their parents concerns to protect it become theirs.

    It's also why the tories have a bit of a crisis on their hands with the housing market etc because home ownership is for a lot of people a later and later prospect, owning your own business or being invested in a business enough to actually have it affect your voting habits is also in decline so the tory traditional voting base has been getting smaller and older. hence the pivot into anti woke social issues to pad out the numbers.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,047 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    Also nothing the Tories have done in the last 10 years has in any way been good for business.

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 33,177 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,047 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    Ya but if he had actually gone through with that we would know because business would be pregnant now 🤣

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,302 ✭✭✭ peter kern

    my main issue is not with portugal but with the eu as they have set no proper time frame. when thos cards have to be issuesd . For travelling it is actually an eu issue that can affects eu citizen in the same way that is does affect those uk people . As far as i am concerned ,in the guardian article , the uk people mentioned , asked for nothing that was not granted to them by the withdrawal rights , it has nothing to do with british exceptionalism or entitlement issues, so i dont see the reason to include that into this issue. we have discussed this issue 1000 times and agreed on that almost as often as we agreed 1000 times FPTP is not good,

    it also has nothing to do with brexit means brexit .... that a lot of people have used in this context .

    its about withdrawal agreement rights are withdrawal agreement rights regardless if it is an uk or an eu issue .

    what you are calling teething problems are not really teething issues those issues exist in the eu ,for eu people travelling with a stamp 4 spouse ,for decades. they are now just transferred to those uk people that exercised their free movement right before brexit . The main issue really is that there is no good data sharing between eu countries, for what documents are to be accepted, by border control , and the more you deviate from standard card the more issues you create . and even with the card its not plain sailing as there is still many border control people that dont know the basics. for the uk people it just adds another level of things that can go wrong for them. of course some issues are teething issues but in the travel case i do not see it for the above reasons.

    portugal does not break the the rules , as those temporary documents are allowed in accordance with the withdrawal agreement and there is no official timeline written when those cards have to be issuesd , as the same time it does also not follow the rule as its says those uk people have right to get those cards and in reasonable time. i would argue ,and the eu commison, would seem to agree with me that portugal is not acting in good faith, . The eu commission monitors the situation, if there was no problem they would not monitor it , i think we can agree on that . Especially since many other countries have issued those entitled uk citizens residents cards.

    for some rules are black and white but this rule is not black and white as it is not well defined , and people that should not suffer ,have issues . of course every system has cracks people fall through but i think we agree that the best way would be to reduce those cracks and not to use them as an excuse for something that happens and see how we can close them .

    So while in theory even with the current document nobody should have troubles travelling , the reality is known for many many years even before brexit was a word that it creates issues . so what is a possible solution .... portugal manages, to send out cards to ukranians in 2 weeks , thats great and i applaud them for that , but that would suggest they could send out this cards to those uk citizens too and that would be one or 2 issues less , as those cards create far less issues.

    there is people that say, one of the guardian article issues pointed out has nothing to do with the issue ie the uk south african couple . i have to assume that the guardian fact checked this and this south african had a EU treaty rights stamp 4 residency card before brexit , which means that as an spouse to an eu citizen she or he has the right to be in portugal and travel in the eu 90 out of 180 days without visa ,Those rights transferred over with brexit , as nothing has changed in that legislation , but of course with a temporary paper its no suprise this happens, as it is another layer where a not well trained border control person can make a mistake. if there was a proper data system there should be no problem. it will be interesitng if they will get a court hearing in germany and what will be the outcome of it. and then we can make a more informed decision on it .

    sure there is teething issues but there is just as many system issues that could have been rectified many many years ago even before brexit was a word . and i dont think shouting brexit means brexit is the solution to this, not that you do but others did . and not breaking rules does not mean the rules are followed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,671 ✭✭✭✭ BlitzKrieg

    Very true, but there is that bizarre notion that conservatives are good for business which keeps being pushed every election. Which is why if you are someone invested into your own business or deep into the upper echelons of another business you'd think it's a good idea to vote for them. No one tends to point out that conservatives are good for businesses their friends own or have personal investment in them..

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭ rock22

    But the Guardian article doesn't show any significant problems with the system.

    It lists three people/couples. One is a British South African couple travelling into Germany where their residency in Portugal was apparently not accepted for entry into Germany. The issue might be in Germany rather than Portugal. One was a pilot who couldn't exchange his German driving licence for a Portuguese one when he probably is not entitled to do so. And one is someone who paid for health care when another person in the report had no problem accessing health care.

    Considering, according to the article, there are 42000 UK citizens who are resident in Portugal, i would say the system is working remarkably well.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph

    They are finding out through this cost of living crisis. Gone are the days of pointing a gunboat at the natives to force them to sell their wares to you for a pittance.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭ ambro25

    “On Ambro's post above it is interesting how the british mindset believes that rules that apply to all non EU/EEA/Schengen citizens are being imposed on them as they can never internalise that it is they who imposed third party rights on themselves.”

    Well, on that one…

    …wait until the EU’s ETA system starts next year, mirroring the UK’s including Patel’s proposed ‘no UK ETA visa for people with a criminal record’ 😏

    (a stat I read in a YorkshireBylines article today: 30+% of British males have at least 1 criminal conviction by the time they reach 53)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,243 ✭✭✭ storker

    Make sure to take in Les Invalides, home to Napoleon's tomb and the Musee de l'Armee.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,243 ✭✭✭ storker

    Polish general Stanislaw Sosabowski was shafted after the failure of (Montgomery's) Arnhem operation in 1944. Word was put about that the Poles weren't enthusiastic about fighting the Germans; a ludicrous libel. He ended his days as a factory worker in Acton, West London, and when he died his co-workers were amazed to find out about his war record, since he had never talked about it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭ rock22

    Another unfortunate affect of Brexit

    I believe Dublin Zoo mentioned this a while back as well.

    It is probably only the tip of the iceberg regarding scientific collaboration. Already there have been reports of grants being cancelled for UK scientist.

    There is no doubt that the long term affect will be to drive a wedge between the disparate scientific communities as collaboration diminishes. Sad because Irish scientific community ( and I worked in it) benefited a lot from working with colleagues in UK.

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 89,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    The UK left the EU VAT scheme that allowed non-EU visitors to claim VAT back.

    People will travel to Europe to go shopping because Britain no longer offers tax-free purchases to international tourists, the boss of clothing chain Superdry has warned. "The other aspect that people haven't realised is that we as Brits can go to France and if we're buying any high-ticket item, get a tax-free deal on that product.

    Less reasons for a stop-over in the UK if you are doing a European tour.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ Enzokk

    The Tories are the masters at reframing history, or at least attempt to be. By the end of their time in charge you will probably find that they will have recast Thatcher as being a staunch Brexiter who hated the EU and the single market.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭ rock22

    Interesting that the UK is now threatening

    legal action against the EU over the Horizon grants

    I hope all the 'i' are dotted and the 't's crossed on EU side.

    But I also think, and stop me if I am beginning to sound like Kermit, but I do think the EU need to be far more stringent in its dealings with the UK who are clearly showing bad faith. Up to and including an immediate suspension of the Trade agreement. Otherwise we are going to have this legal back and forth for years.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,786 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42

    Easy for the EU is to battle that case. Inclusion in Horizon etc was part of the WA, which the UK have not implemented on their side. SO by taking this case the UK will be asked why they haven't implemented the NIP, and asked to give a time frame of when it will be implemented. If they can't give that then it would be unlikely that a court would decide that the EU should adhere completely to the agreement whilst the other party refuses to hold up their side.

    TBH, this actually suits the EU. But I don't think the Uk actually thinks it can win. This is just to be seen to be doing something, yet again painting the EU as the enemy, as if the UK were not at fault at all. It sells very well in Brexit Britain.