Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

wexfordman2

I see Priti Patel and the UK have been un invited from the conference on migration that France had scheduled.

France has said they have un invited her due to the inappropriate response of BJ's open letter requesting the French accept the return of thise who manage to cross, amongst other things, some 5 point plan BJ came up with.

Why should France and the EU make any deal to take back illegal migrants? What does the UK have to offer in this deal?

Igotadose

With all the fishermen losing their livelihoods in the UK, I would think they could be creatively used to rescue migrants in dinghies. Bring them to a processing center, then off to the UK if appropriate to work as HGV drivers (only need a bit of training these days), fruit pickers or butchers in meat packing plants. I'm sure the migrants would love the work opportunity. Plus this would help stem the net outbound migration issue the UK has now!

See? Brexit for the win, creating all these job opportunities and using surplus capacity (fishing vessels). I'd expect fishing vessel fuel usage to be net carbon neutral versus flocks of dinghies with brutally inefficient outboard motors. The outboards could be confiscated for spare parts, reducing another import issue (Brexit again for the win!)

Rees-Mogg was wrong; an obvious Brexit benefit right away, not 50 years from now!

Leroy42

The migrant 'crisis' is a perfect summation of Brexit. Little actual facts or understanding of the reality, but plenty of headlines and ministers out exclaiming that something needs to be done. The general public then feel under siege and its the dastardly EU that are the problem

Then, the something os always only one way, the way that places all the responsibility onto someone else and absolves the UK or any actual responsibility. They quickly dispense with any pretence of international law, or even moral obligations, completely ignore the role that Global Britain played in creating the migrants in the first place.

Even the letter, published to great fanfare yesterday, was a cynical PR spin attempt by Johnson to appear to be doing something about a crisis that his own Home Secretary has continually said that she didn't care about. Far from caring about them drowning, her idea was to turn them away on the sea and refuse the RNLI to rescue them!

The French have, rightly IMO, got the hump that yet again the UK are carrying out the talks in public and very clearly blaming the French for everything.

Direct comparisons to how they are carrying out Brexit

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225081#Comment_118225081

Yes, I'm reading there is a huge amount of anger in France that Johnson quoted large parts of a private conversation with Macron and also that he took to Twitter at all (especially as there was a lot of implied criticism of France and its actions in the text).

This business of aiming everything they do and say at Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph readers is beyond bizarre. It's almost as if they view the Channel situation as some sort of PR event that needs to be 'spun' and propagandised.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225938#Comment_118225938

Is it as simple as the Trumpian method that you always be campaigning; sloganeering and soundbites? In the absence of any tangible benefits wrought by Brexit, with CoVid also fouling the soup, maybe Johnson's taking the populist route of keeping an easily agitated demographic riled up. Keep the Ultras emotional enough, so that intellectual discussions are impossible, while holding fast til the next election. Starting a war is a known way to bolster flagging support; Johnson has picked enough fights with France it seems the next best thing

HalloweenJack

I find it quite amusing that the UK now has control of its borders yet is looking for a unified approach when problems appear. If it were still a part of the EU, I imagine things would run a lot smoother in terms of making agreements and sticking to them.

Of course, their behaviour since 2016 has made any chances of an agreement less likely and not being a member of the club means there's less motivation to keep them happy.

FWIW, using 27 dead people as a political football is quite disgusting.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226110#Comment_118226110

If you read 1984 you'd say that this exactly what the Party did to keep in power. Just a softer version of it. Which makes it more hideous.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226110#Comment_118226110

I think so. The seems to be a complete dearth of vision, innovation, and talent in the current Conservative party. They've inflicted this wound on the country solely for their own self-preservation and now that they've tapped the vein dry, it looks like conflict with the old enemy is next. I don't think that this thing with France will be enough on its own. Anger is like a fire in that it needs fuel. Johnson has clearly run out of this and, since he has nothing else, he's going to plough on regardless. 

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226389#Comment_118226389

I have read 1984 and there are certainly many parallels. Keep the 'proles' in total ignorance and feed them all sorts of nonsense. A responsible press would be calling them out on this, but the UK version see it as their role to keep the Tory Party in power.

J Mysterio

Hard to know what the UK is playing at. We have all been using the 'driving off a cliff' analogy for years (5 years and counting). Also Coveneys famous comments about 'do what I want or I'll jump'.

At this point they have already burned all their bridges and yet they still won't let up, even as they now turn around and want to renegotiate the NIP with the EU (while threatening Ireland), or want to work with France on refugees/ immigration, while disparaging them and mmaking unfair and unrealistic demands. In both scenarios they are offering absolutely nothing.

The new German government have agreed as part of their coaliton deal that they are committed to the NIP, and back sanctions if it is broken in any way.

The Dutch, who used to back the UK in many EU disputes, have also lost their patience with this behaviour.

The US have continually warned that they will not accept the protocol being brought down, and will not sign a trade deal if the UK make that happen.

If you look at it, relations are just about as low as they can get with virtually all 'traditional allies' in Ireland, France, Germany, the US, the Netherlands etc. etc. Or, in other words, all their neighbours who they really do rely on in a globalised world.

From an outside perspective, seems they are determined to completely isolate themselves and turn everyone against them. Not only are they the sick man of Europe, but they have lost all logic, reason and are now abusive, like a patient suffering from dementia.

pixelburp

Thing is; all the above is true. But if you're an embattled Tory whose popularity can be pinned on that lingering sense of English Exceptionalism, the rest of the world casting stink eye at the UK will only embolden said PM and the Red Top brigade types. It might eventually dawn on the broad populous that the current government may not be the best ones at the tiller; but until that point I expect the jingoistic rhetoric to get much worse, on a par with that seen immediately after the 2016 result.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226658#Comment_118226658

The rhetoric will only get worse, this much we know. However, the amount of people this will appeal to will dwindle. I think this country is fairly centrist on the whole. The problem is that even if said moderates and the less zealous English nationalists do lose faith with the Tories, there's nowhere for them to go. The closest the Lib Dems come to achieving anything is their continued existence and I don't see them fitting in with even the right wing of the Labour party. I think we're heading towards the same issues the US has with its Senate where tiny constituencies will still elect an MP whereas more liberal people who tend to cluster in cities will send proportionately the same number.

I think 2022 is going to be an illuminating year. Covid is becoming endemic as opposed to pandemic and Johnson has neither it or Brexit to hide behind any more.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226658#Comment_118226658

It will come at a terrible cost though. Keeps all the Tory voters and xenophobes and bigots blissfully happy, but shreds the country's international reputation (and yes, that of their people too) in the process.

Mayfielder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226619#Comment_118226619

In what way is the UK the sick man of Europe ?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226728#Comment_118226728

Maybe those voters don't need to go anywhere, not if Rishi Sunak swans in to appeal to those centrists. Remains to be seen if Sunak has designs on no. 10 but were you conspiratorially minded you'd almost wonder if Johnson's increasingly brazen manner is being quietly indulged - simply to allow him to crash holding the bag, at which point the "moderates" can take over, pleading sobriety of purpose. Let Johnson stir up his archaic sense of jingoism 'til it's no longer useful. Playing with fire of course, and perhaps my spitballing gives these people more strategy and intelligence than they deserve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226743#Comment_118226743

What does it matter if it keeps them in power though? That's obviously the big flaw with being Always Campaigning; there's never a good point to step back from the brink so all you can do is keep on keeping on.

J Mysterio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226743#Comment_118226743

Too late for that though. Their international reputation has been shredded.

It's just that that they are trying to make 'deals' and 'negotiate' with all those they have upset, as they continue to insult them, and cause trouble.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226888#Comment_118226888

I don't know. Even if Sunak wins, they've built themselves up to be the party of English nationalism at this stage. He won't be able to just undo that, even if he wanted to. I'd be gobsmacked if he didn't have designs on number 10, frankly but he comes across at being more disciplined, if not more clever outright than Johnson.

What's weird is their decision to push past their base has afflicted them with the same electoral malaise that plagues Labour. The Southerners don't want to pay for Northerners to level up while the latter resent the former for being too stingy and hoarding wealth. It's not a recipe for harmony as Labour well know.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227126#Comment_118227126

You understand that replying you're opening the door to a rehash of all the usual Brexiter tropes?

J Mysterio

Dont really understand how Sunak is being positioned as Boris successor at all. The man might be exceedingly clever and astute - I don't really know - but unsure he has the qualities of a leader.

To me he comes across as a very nerdy posh private school boy. I remember seeing the following clip and being quite embarassed:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nO_fXajyzek

I can't see him being leader.

Mayfielder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227126#Comment_118227126

The UK has certainly had big problems with productivity levels compared to other major European countries but it's a bit of a stretch to label it the sick man of Europe. The pandemic has thrown a major spanner in the works for all economies so it will be interesting to see who emerges in a strong position when it's finally all over although I suspect it will be years before the true economic effects of Covid and Brexit will be known.

ancapailldorcha

Anyone with an issue with a post/poster, please use the report function. Ad hominems on thread will result in sanctions and posts being removed.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227291#Comment_118227291

Apart from the "nerd" bit, what makes you think a posh private schoolboy is some kind of disadvantage in the case of political ascension in the UK? I will grant you, there's an air of the inauthentic with his public persona - especially with his social media profile after he hired a media manager, so that could be the thing that does him in.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225991#Comment_118225991

At first glance, that's a farcical amount of money - but compared with other mega-structures of this complexity is it at least comparable? Am thinking of those giant road bridges built in China etc.

Wonder how much it cost to fund a feasibility study like this; something everyone and their mother knew was a complete waste of time, born from the spitball of a PM flailing for ideas to shore up a creaking union.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227579#Comment_118227579

It was obviously only ever placation to Loyalists in NI as it was of zero benefit to the English Brexiter heartlands to fund a massive project linking one nation whose denizens are optional EU citizens to a Scotland that could well be realigned with the EU/EEA in the coming years.

Manning a 500Km with nearly 300 crossing points in Ireland is of equally little interest to English Brexiters.

Edit to add they already postponed checks on EU imports three times already and I won't be surprised if the next deadline in January gets postponed too.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227664#Comment_118227664

Why though? NI has no benefits for the Tory party. It has at most 18 MP's and none of those seats are flipping blue any time soon. Money spent on this is money that could have placate Johnson's northern voters instead.

Was this all it was marketed as? They still need to ensure that no hard border appears on the island of Ireland anyway.

Mayfielder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227579#Comment_118227579

Johson's idea to conduct a feasibility study was backed by the Irish government at the time. The study has reported back as not being worth the cost and the idea has been shelved.

Similar criticisms were made when the idea of the Channel Tunnel was first mooted. And there's an ongoing discussion about the costs and feasability of HS2. I see no fault in any government coming up with ideas for big infrastructure plans - it's how modern economies develop.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227291#Comment_118227291

Should be remembered that Sunak is a hardcore Brexiteer - that immediately makes him suspect in my book (it seems nearly every dodgy type in English politics ended up on the Brexit side of the fence).

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224913#Comment_118224913

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/france-dover-border-force-priti-patel-french-b959704.html

Has the UK paid France what they already promised yet ?

In other news - something that will make the UK even less attractive to foreign workers.

The new nationality and borders bill will allow the Home Office to remove British Citizenship without notice effectively denying appeals.

Other proposed rule changes in the bill have already attracted criticism, including rendering claims from anyone arriving in the UK by an illegal route inadmissible, while criminalising them and anyone who seeks to save their lives, and giving Border Force staff immunity from prosecution if people die in the Channel during “pushback” operations.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227754#Comment_118227754

The bridge linking NI to GB was always a stupid idea and whilst the Irish may have said "knock yourself out" they did so whilst laughing quietly at the prepostery of it. The terrain is very different to the channel but more importantly are the thousands of tonnes of munitions dumped there by the Brits.

By all means, come up with ideas but maybe think about them quietly to yourself before announcing them to the world!