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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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rainbowtrout

Got an email from principal today which came from ETB which said that they've had word from DES/SEC that exams are going ahead as normal currently and they are currently planning for orals and practicals. Consideration is being given to format for these and deadlines. If practicals have to be done under teacher supervision then the dates will be pushed back in line with the number of days we are online.

Expecting written confirmation in due course.

Bobtheman

If I were the minister I would come out and just say we intend holding the LC. But have a plan B

Rosita

A faintly ridiculous idea but in the heel of the hunt it's actually what happened last year. Predicted grades and then the LC if you weren't happy. I could think that its ridiculousness would make it untenable as a prospect but I'd have to have a short memory for that.

The Minister and Department needs to own this issue and appear credible, honest, and humble - as in acknowledging that there is a slight bump in the road which concerns people while assuring us that there's still plenty of time and that the LC should not be a problem especially given that schools have been open for months already without too much ado, that this can happen again, and that hopefully the worst will be over by June anyway.

Unfortunately the type of language used is painfully stilted "in terms of" and "acknowledging" nonsense which always sounds like a learned off interview answer. The Minister always appears as if it's a political damage limitation exercise rather than providing any sense that the situation is under control and is not just a fire-fight. That reality makes the situation more volatile than it needs to be.

shesty

If ever there was an advertisement for "be careful what you wish for" that "choice" scenario is it.
Fairly ridiculous idea.

TheValeyard

Rosita wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

Christ... so the students should have their cake and eat it? I'm sorry, but this is a nonsensical suggestion. I think people forget that teachers had no further contact with students once predicted grades were decided upon last year.students won't be "focusing on their work" if predicted grades are mandated. They'll be on holiday. The Leaving Certificate can and should go ahead.

Where are the opinions of teachers? You know.... the professionals in the situation.... our media are so bloody irresponsible...

deiseindublin

Leaving Cert students should have option of predicted grades, says parents group
Opposition politicians appeal for ‘clarity and certainty’ over exams

Ellen O'Riordan
about 9 hours ago

Leaving Certificate students must be offered the choice to opt for predictive grades or sit their exams in June, a national council of parents has said.

The Education and Training Board (ETB) Schools National Parents’ Association is calling on the Government to make a decision about how the process will run to provide “clarity and certainty”. The organisation, which represents 38 per cent of parents of secondary school students, is asking for a “clear choice” to be offered to students by the end of January.

All students, including those in Leaving Cert, return to online learning on Monday morning. Plans to provide three days of in-person teaching to Leaving Cert students were abandoned following mounting pressure from schools and teachers’ unions.

David O’Gorman, secretary of the ETB Schools Parents’ Association said Leaving Cert students now need “clarity and certainty” regarding their end of year assessments. Providing a clear choice by the end of the month would remove “an awful lot of the stress and anxiety” for students and their parents, he said. It would also have the added effect of “focusing every student’s mind on their work no matter what choice they’ve made”.

Minister for Education Norma Foley has said she is determined to hold traditional Leaving Cert exams in June.

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Mr O’Gorman said the association came to the conclusion two Leaving Cert options must be made available based on social media commentary and appeals from parents and teachers.

“The feedback from parents is that choices should be given to take the pressure off,” he said.

Meanwhile, a petition organised by Leaving Cert students calling for optional predicted grades has garnered more than 28,000 signatures. The petition claims the mental health of some Leaving Cert students is “deteriorating” and the closure of schools is affecting learning.

“Students shouldn’t be expected to sit a normal exam when nothing about this year has been normal,” it says.

The Labour Party is calling for a decision to be made by early February.

“We need clarity,” said the party’s education spokesman Aodhán Ó Ríordáin. “One option is to give students a choice of calculated grades or the Leaving Cert. Either way, students need to know what is being planned.”

Sinn Féin’s education spokesman Donnchadh Ó Laoighaire is calling for a “Plan B” to be delivered as soon as possible.

“We cannot allow a situation where we are going well into the spring without certainty… If the Leaving Cert was to be cancelled, what would happen?” he asked.

Wombatman

Rosita wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

Paywall. Can you post the text here please.

Rosita

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

Wombatman

Bobtheman wrote: »

When do you see schools opening? I don't see it until March.

After Feb midterm would be my guess.

Bobtheman

When do you see schools opening? I don't see it until March.

km79

covid2021 wrote: »

How is everyone else planning to manage the mocks now that DEB are suspending all operations for 2021?

I just don’t see Mocks taking place.......

Postgrad10

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

No, it was a joke reference to the plan for reopening schools sorry

Oh yes, all came flooding back to me.

It really irks me that other than saying schools are safe and can open last September. They made no other plans. Like a plan B or C. They did nothing, absolutely nothing.

mirrorwall14

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Is that what they advertised as?

No, it was a joke reference to the plan for reopening schools sorry

Bobtheman

I still feel strongly that the exams should have gone ahead last year. It was feasible. Only Irish, English and maths had all sixth years in.
But that's the past.
Ideally this year it should go ahead but it would be a foolish government that didn't devise a plan B and openly discuss it with the unions and Principals.
As to content. I think they have done enough in English at LC level.
As far as I'm aware no changes have been made for JC English?
Of course openly discussing a plan B would be a rational idea. This government doesn't seem to do rationality when it comes to the LC.

History Queen

History Queen wrote: »

The only way that will happen is if subject associations and unions get out ahead of this now and contact the Department requesting same is done. Then publically announce that they have done so. I have written an email to this effect which I will be sending to my subject associations and union tomorrow, I encourage everyone to do the same.

I have done the above,lads if ye can at all please do likewise. Lets stop the department from making a ****show of things this year.

Postgrad10

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Bespoke solutions.... lol

Is that what they advertised as?

mirrorwall14

covid2021 wrote: »

How is everyone else planning to manage the mocks now that DEB are suspending all operations for 2021?

Bespoke solutions.... lol

rainbowtrout

That's going to depend on what school management decides in each school.

covid2021

How is everyone else planning to manage the mocks now that DEB are suspending all operations for 2021?

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

The only way that will happen is if subject associations and unions get out ahead of this now and contact the Department requesting same is done. Then publically announce that they have done so. I have written an email to this effect which I will be sending to my subject associations and union tomorrow, I encourage everyone to do the same.

Subject associations are mandated to represent their members to ncca/sec etc. Pile on the pressure.

I'm wondering is the lack of coherent changes to exam papers just an attempt to put pressure on nervous students yet again.... to demand clarity...
#dejavu

Pringles123

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

The maths changes are totally inadequate. Even more so now.

Completely agree. If they could at least tell us what topics will be covered in the each choice question it would make things easier to eliminate some topic.

My third years recently asked me was anything done to change JC maths. Even they were shocked when I told them all we know is the format will be the same as the sample paper.

History Queen

amacca wrote: »

Agree but will they actually make the changes that are required or give a timeline for when and what kind of changes (in a timely fashion) to allow students and teachers to plan?.....
I woukdnt hold my breath if past performance is anything tp go by they'll make another arrogant cock up of it and tell you about it with as little notice as possible

The only way that will happen is if subject associations and unions get out ahead of this now and contact the Department requesting same is done. Then publically announce that they have done so. I have written an email to this effect which I will be sending to my subject associations and union tomorrow, I encourage everyone to do the same.

amacca

Wombatman wrote: »

The amendments to the exam papers should ensure that teachers and students can reduce the amount of material they need to cover\revise.

Giving extra choice does not always ensure this. They way the choice is structured in Irish and English, for example, allows for the elimination of some material. In other like Maths and History, the choice structure does not allow for this and students still have to cover the whole course if they are to score well. Other subjects like Applied Maths have no amendments at all.

Revision is well underway. If further changes are made to papers some revision work, say the work done over Christmas for example, could have all been in vain.

If further changes are required, they need to be done very soon, be clear and easy to understand and be very well communicated to the teachers and students.

Agree but will they actually make the changes that are required or give a timeline for when and what kind of changes (in a timely fashion) to allow students and teachers to plan?.....
I woukdnt hold my breath if past performance is anything tp go by they'll make another arrogant cock up of it and tell you about it with as little notice as possible

am_zarathustra

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

With maths the extra choice doesn’t allow you to reduce content because anything can come up anywhere, multiple times and questions are multifaceted

So true, very hard to know. You can kind of assume you don't need complex numbers but do you? What if your love Trig and it's your best subject and now it's mixed into the long question.

Would more choice again help I wonder? 7 short answer 5 and then 5 long answer 3? I'd be more comfortable with that, I'd drop a few smaller sections then alright

TheValeyard

Well, if I'm been honest.....

They are probably going to balls this all up.... Again.

r93kaey5p2izun

The maths changes are totally inadequate. Even more so now.

mirrorwall14

With maths the extra choice doesn’t allow you to reduce content because anything can come up anywhere, multiple times and questions are multifaceted

rainbowtrout

Wombatman wrote: »

The amendments to the exam papers should ensure that teachers and students can reduce the amount of material they need to cover\revise.

Giving extra choice does not always ensure this. They way the choice is structured in Irish and English, for example, allows for the elimination of some material. In other like Maths and History, the choice structure does not allow for this and students still have to cover the whole course if they are to score well. Other subjects like Applied Maths have no amendments at all.

Some teachers aren't fully aware of the changes, or their implications, and are still trying to cover all material as usual, which leads to students thinking they have to cover all material.

Revision is well underway. If further changes are made to papers some revision work, say the work done over Christmas for example, could have all been in vain.

If further changes are required, they need to be done very soon, be clear and easy to understand and be very well communicated to the teachers and students.

That's not a reason for changing an exam. Guidelines were issued in September. It's a lack of professionalism if someone isn't bothered to read them. They were well flagged.

Wombatman

Random sample wrote: »

The choice of questions means you can leave a poem and prose out completely.

I agree with the majority, no need to cancel the exams again. There was no need last year either.

The media have a case to answer in how they behaved around the leaving cert last year. It should be stamped out quickly if they attempt a similar campaign this year.

The amendments to the exam papers should ensure that teachers and students can reduce the amount of material they need to cover\revise.

Giving extra choice does not always ensure this. They way the choice is structured in Irish and English, for example, allows for the elimination of some material. In other like Maths and History, the choice structure does not allow for this and students still have to cover the whole course if they are to score well. Other subjects like Applied Maths have no amendments at all.

Some teachers aren't fully aware of the changes, or their implications, and are still trying to cover all material as usual, which leads to students thinking they have to cover all material.

Revision is well underway. If further changes are made to papers some revision work, say the work done over Christmas for example, could have all been in vain.

If further changes are required, they need to be done very soon, be clear and easy to understand and be very well communicated to the teachers and students.