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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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covid2021

How is everyone else planning to manage the mocks now that DEB are suspending all operations for 2021?

rainbowtrout

That's going to depend on what school management decides in each school.

mirrorwall14

covid2021 wrote: »

How is everyone else planning to manage the mocks now that DEB are suspending all operations for 2021?

Bespoke solutions.... lol

Postgrad10

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Bespoke solutions.... lol

Is that what they advertised as?

History Queen

History Queen wrote: »

The only way that will happen is if subject associations and unions get out ahead of this now and contact the Department requesting same is done. Then publically announce that they have done so. I have written an email to this effect which I will be sending to my subject associations and union tomorrow, I encourage everyone to do the same.

I have done the above,lads if ye can at all please do likewise. Lets stop the department from making a ****show of things this year.

Bobtheman

I still feel strongly that the exams should have gone ahead last year. It was feasible. Only Irish, English and maths had all sixth years in.
But that's the past.
Ideally this year it should go ahead but it would be a foolish government that didn't devise a plan B and openly discuss it with the unions and Principals.
As to content. I think they have done enough in English at LC level.
As far as I'm aware no changes have been made for JC English?
Of course openly discussing a plan B would be a rational idea. This government doesn't seem to do rationality when it comes to the LC.

mirrorwall14

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Is that what they advertised as?

No, it was a joke reference to the plan for reopening schools sorry

Postgrad10

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

No, it was a joke reference to the plan for reopening schools sorry

Oh yes, all came flooding back to me.

It really irks me that other than saying schools are safe and can open last September. They made no other plans. Like a plan B or C. They did nothing, absolutely nothing.

km79

covid2021 wrote: »

How is everyone else planning to manage the mocks now that DEB are suspending all operations for 2021?

I just don’t see Mocks taking place.......

Bobtheman

When do you see schools opening? I don't see it until March.

Wombatman

Bobtheman wrote: »

When do you see schools opening? I don't see it until March.

After Feb midterm would be my guess.

Rosita

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

Wombatman

Rosita wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

Paywall. Can you post the text here please.

deiseindublin

Leaving Cert students should have option of predicted grades, says parents group
Opposition politicians appeal for ‘clarity and certainty’ over exams

Ellen O'Riordan
about 9 hours ago

Leaving Certificate students must be offered the choice to opt for predictive grades or sit their exams in June, a national council of parents has said.

The Education and Training Board (ETB) Schools National Parents’ Association is calling on the Government to make a decision about how the process will run to provide “clarity and certainty”. The organisation, which represents 38 per cent of parents of secondary school students, is asking for a “clear choice” to be offered to students by the end of January.

All students, including those in Leaving Cert, return to online learning on Monday morning. Plans to provide three days of in-person teaching to Leaving Cert students were abandoned following mounting pressure from schools and teachers’ unions.

David O’Gorman, secretary of the ETB Schools Parents’ Association said Leaving Cert students now need “clarity and certainty” regarding their end of year assessments. Providing a clear choice by the end of the month would remove “an awful lot of the stress and anxiety” for students and their parents, he said. It would also have the added effect of “focusing every student’s mind on their work no matter what choice they’ve made”.

Minister for Education Norma Foley has said she is determined to hold traditional Leaving Cert exams in June.

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Mr O’Gorman said the association came to the conclusion two Leaving Cert options must be made available based on social media commentary and appeals from parents and teachers.

“The feedback from parents is that choices should be given to take the pressure off,” he said.

Meanwhile, a petition organised by Leaving Cert students calling for optional predicted grades has garnered more than 28,000 signatures. The petition claims the mental health of some Leaving Cert students is “deteriorating” and the closure of schools is affecting learning.

“Students shouldn’t be expected to sit a normal exam when nothing about this year has been normal,” it says.

The Labour Party is calling for a decision to be made by early February.

“We need clarity,” said the party’s education spokesman Aodhán Ó Ríordáin. “One option is to give students a choice of calculated grades or the Leaving Cert. Either way, students need to know what is being planned.”

Sinn Féin’s education spokesman Donnchadh Ó Laoighaire is calling for a “Plan B” to be delivered as soon as possible.

“We cannot allow a situation where we are going well into the spring without certainty… If the Leaving Cert was to be cancelled, what would happen?” he asked.

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

Christ... so the students should have their cake and eat it? I'm sorry, but this is a nonsensical suggestion. I think people forget that teachers had no further contact with students once predicted grades were decided upon last year.students won't be "focusing on their work" if predicted grades are mandated. They'll be on holiday. The Leaving Certificate can and should go ahead.

Where are the opinions of teachers? You know.... the professionals in the situation.... our media are so bloody irresponsible...

TheValeyard

Rosita wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/leaving-cert-students-should-have-option-of-predicted-grades-says-parents-group-1.4455306?mode=amp

Won't take much for this thing to drift.

shesty

If ever there was an advertisement for "be careful what you wish for" that "choice" scenario is it.
Fairly ridiculous idea.

Rosita

A faintly ridiculous idea but in the heel of the hunt it's actually what happened last year. Predicted grades and then the LC if you weren't happy. I could think that its ridiculousness would make it untenable as a prospect but I'd have to have a short memory for that.

The Minister and Department needs to own this issue and appear credible, honest, and humble - as in acknowledging that there is a slight bump in the road which concerns people while assuring us that there's still plenty of time and that the LC should not be a problem especially given that schools have been open for months already without too much ado, that this can happen again, and that hopefully the worst will be over by June anyway.

Unfortunately the type of language used is painfully stilted "in terms of" and "acknowledging" nonsense which always sounds like a learned off interview answer. The Minister always appears as if it's a political damage limitation exercise rather than providing any sense that the situation is under control and is not just a fire-fight. That reality makes the situation more volatile than it needs to be.

Bobtheman

If I were the minister I would come out and just say we intend holding the LC. But have a plan B

rainbowtrout

Got an email from principal today which came from ETB which said that they've had word from DES/SEC that exams are going ahead as normal currently and they are currently planning for orals and practicals. Consideration is being given to format for these and deadlines. If practicals have to be done under teacher supervision then the dates will be pushed back in line with the number of days we are online.

Expecting written confirmation in due course.

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

If I were the minister I would come out and just say we intend holding the LC. But have a plan B

Once you mention plan B then the "pleading for certainty" will begin.
Students will want both options.
Students will lose interest in plan A... Which is studying.

Alqua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Got an email from principal today which came from ETB which said that they've had word from DES/SEC that exams are going ahead as normal currently and they are currently planning for orals and practicals. Consideration is being given to format for these and deadlines. If practicals have to be done under teacher supervision then the dates will be pushed back in line with the number of days we are online.

Expecting written confirmation in due course.

I'm keen to know how we are expected to get courses covered [online on students' phones], while running the practicals in...May? Especially as the classroom guidelines (for music anyway) pretty much prohibit students from practising.

rainbowtrout

Alqua wrote: »

I'm keen to know how we are expected to get courses covered [online on students' phones], while running the practicals in...May? Especially as the classroom guidelines (for music anyway) pretty much prohibit students from practising.

No idea. It's probably the trickiest one given that it seems to be the only practical subject where there is a ban on practice.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No idea. It's probably the trickiest one given that it seems to be the only practical subject where there is a ban on practice.

There's a fair few who do group singing, plus ensembles. Otherwise I think they could have gone the recording route like Royal Irish Academy did.

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

There's a fair few who do group singing, plus ensembles. Otherwise I think they could have gone the recording route like Royal Irish Academy did.

Yeah this is the major issue. Most of us would put out weaker singers into groups allowing them to show off harmony etc

inbetweentea

I do think the Leaving Certificate is fairer than predicted grades but it's just impossible for me to see how it will go ahead this year. I'm just thinking in terms of logistically having everyone in to do them - or if kids become symptomatic (or someone in their family does) around exam time. Could the element of fairness be reduced if the exam is staggered or postponed in cases like these? Would they not be common occurrences?

I'm not even including staff issues as I say this.

There is also very unequal take-up of online learning across the board (and I'm talking about for reasons outside the students' control...)
I completely agree that grade inflation is an issue with predictive grading...

I was wondering if kids provided paper work evidence of their learning (say- their best work or something) if that would work as a means of verifying the predicted grade (saw the idea of a portfolio as a proposal in the UK) but we all know, as teachers, that this would be very open to abuse..

Treppen

very much open to abuse...

If anything, any form of mocks@home should be strictly ruled out in case there will be predictive grades. Could you imagine!

I suspect that now I've mentioned it, there will be someone from the DES reading it and saying "oh that's a good idea.. mocks@home, yes lets request that all schools do it".

inbetweentea

Treppen wrote: »

very much open to abuse...

If anything, any form of mocks@home should be strictly ruled out in case there will be predictive grades. Could you imagine!

I suspect that now I've mentioned it, there will be someone from the DES reading it and saying "oh that's a good idea.. mocks@home, yes lets request that all schools do it".

Can't disagree with this Treppen. Good point. Exam questions at home only work really as a means of helping students to judge the progress of their own learning- maybe for feedback but it again would be grossly unfair to predict anything using them. I am curious about other schools and if you do Christmas tests/exams or continuous assessments before Christmas...
I wish we had been able to get a bit more guidance from September on the best approaches to this in current climate. I understand the situation has obviously changed since September but there was always the chance of online learning again. It's a horrific mess for subjects with practical elements.

micks_address

Definitely a challenge for students at the moment. Our son is working hard and has a good online setup. He has said repeatedly to us that he will be raging if he spends 3 months more killing himself studying for exams to be cancelled in April/May. I think its highly likely predicted grades will be used this year again. Best case is leaving students get back to school in February. At that point they will have spent 4 months out of classroom settings between 5th and 6th. Id imagine if it is to go predicted grades it will be announced in March. Its not fair to let it drag on. There's arguments to postpone it till July etc but you can't just wing it and hope its all grand by then. last years class and this years are equally impacted by the pandemic. maybe this years more. I don't want him to sit on his hands for 3 months if they do go predicted again this year.

Bobtheman

Unfortunately there is no assurance to be given to students. They will have to accept that we cant predict the next few months,
Thus students will have to work away and if it goes to predicted grades that work will surely count.
I think the media have a huge role to play. They whip up anxiety.
Parents too will have to soothe their kids nerves as best the can.
People who should be living longer are dying. Cancer treatments are delayed. Peoples lives are literally going down the tubs. People who might just now be back on their feet after the last crash. People who are too old to start again.
We as a nation need to stop the hysterical veneration of the LC. It doesn't help kids nor do articles about kids feeling anxiety over the LC help. It just creates more anxiety not less.
It needs to be taken down a few notches. The whole LC on a high altar thing. You see more articles about it than say hospital treatments delayed .