Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

downthemiddle

pc7 wrote: »

They are out of their ECCE group as its closed, so missing out on time with friends, learning and play

Very true, but nothing to do with this thread.

Stateofyou

I saw this post today on the Alerting Parents of Outbreaks fb page, looks like a report is coming down the pipe soon. Will be interesting to see.

"...A report is to follow very soon with harrowing details on the effects felt from Covid in schools by parents children and school staff which shines much needed light on the issues around safety in schools and the lack of measures needed going forward with school reopening. (All details in the report such as names schools location son daughter etc have been redacted in the report and all information secured) it’s a big ask but one thing we feel that would benefit parents staff etc involved in these events is to make a complaint about the handling of these issues with the HSE and also where people felt it was handled well there is an option to compliment. Weighing these up is down to each person on how they feel it was mishandled, could have been avoided or handled well. The link will be attached below. We are gaining ground on these issues and with your help will be able to apply pressure to increase the safety measures so much needed in schools as shown in so many international reports on the effects schools on Covid transmission and our children’s fn staff..."

iamwhoiam

downthemiddle wrote: »

Very true, but nothing to do with this thread.

It will have a knock on effect on the children who will start Junior Infants in September . I was chatting to a JI teacher a while ago who said since the kids were getting ECCE prior to school she noticed a big difference in them
They were much better at sitting still and engaging , much better at being independent and much better at expressing their needs .
It will be a big loss for kids who miss out on ECCE and a knock on effect in J1 and SI

pc7

downthemiddle wrote: »

Very true, but nothing to do with this thread.

It is, ECCE was closed in line with schools and you mentioned school closures don't affect 4 year olds, they do. There are also 4 year olds in junior infants.

JP100

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It will have a knock on effect on the children who will start Junior Infants in September . I was chatting to a JI teacher a while ago who said since the kids were getting ECCE prior to school she noticed a big difference in them
They were much better at sitting still and engaging , much better at being independent and much better at expressing their needs .
It will be a big loss for kids who miss out on ECCE and a knock on effect in J1 and SI

It'll be harder work for the infant teachers but schools and teachers will adapt and the kids will be fine. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived through wars and what we have been asked to do for the last year or so is much more minor than some of our grandparents and great grandparents had to endure in their lifetimes. A bit of perspective is strongly needed in all of this.

Midnight Sundance

JP100 wrote: »

It'll be harder work for the infant teachers but schools and teachers will adapt and the kids will be fine. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived through wars and what we have been asked to do for the last year or so is much more minor than some of our grandparents and great grandparents had to endure in their lifetimes. A bit of perspective is strongly needed in all of this.

Absolutely agree.
I've taught children with the ecce year and ones that didn't receive it. By the end of junior infants they were all the same. Yea it might be a little more difficult for the teacher in the beginning but teachers are well used to that and will adapt. As will the children.
I am wholeheartedly in favour of the pre school year . You definitely see a change in the children for the better when coming to the school but I'm also in favour of making sure they and their families are kept safe first. Missing a couple of months of the pre school year isn't going to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, whereas losing a family member of covid definitely will

mcsean2163

JP100 wrote: »

It'll be harder work for the infant teachers but schools and teachers will adapt and the kids will be fine. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived through wars and what we have been asked to do for the last year or so is much more minor than some of our grandparents and great grandparents had to endure in their lifetimes. A bit of perspective is strongly needed in all of this.

I know of no generation that were locked up as children because they could be asymptomatic disease carriers and to whom adults jumped away in terror like scared mice when they went near.

Solitary confinement is the worst penalty an inmate can be given and this has been lumped on our children.

mcsean2163

This thread seems to be dominated by teachers telling parents to stop complaining and that their worries are not real.

Surely it's for anyone interested in schools not just teachers?

Stateofyou

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I know of no generation that was locked up because they could be asymptomatic disease carriers and to whom adults jumped away in terror like scared mice when children came near.

Solitary confinement is the worst penalty an inmate can be given and this has been lumped on our children.

This is hyperbole in the extreme.

JP100

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I know of no generation that were locked up as children because they could be asymptomatic disease carriers and to whom adults jumped away in terror like scared mice when they went near.

Solitary confinement is the worst penalty an inmate can be given and this has been lumped on our children.

Get out of that with all the hysterics, what you're coming out would be more suited to a mad cap conspiracy thread rather than on a thread on how to reopen school buildings safely.

BonsaiKitten

mcsean2163 wrote: »

This thread seems to be dominated by teachers telling parents to stop complaining and that their worries are not real.

Surely it's for anyone interested in schools not just teachers?

That's funny, I would have said this thread is dominated by posters with no knowledge of the education system - aside from having been through it - making assumptions about teachers, unions and education.

Perspective is an interesting thing.

JP100

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

That's funny, I would have said this thread is dominated by posters with no knowledge of the education system - aside from having been through it - making assumptions about teachers, unions and education.

Perspective is an interesting thing.

Not to mention the fact that an awful lot of teachers and SNAs are themselves parents too. Such a fact seems to be very much lost on a number of posters on here.

hesaidshesaid

Covid-19: Cabinet set to agree plan for reopening schools
Ministers are also expected to discuss new Living with Covid plan this evening

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-cabinet-set-to-agree-plan-for-reopening-schools-1.4488626

BTownB

JP100 wrote: »

It'll be harder work for the infant teachers but schools and teachers will adapt and the kids will be fine. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived through wars and what we have been asked to do for the last year or so is much more minor than some of our grandparents and great grandparents had to endure in their lifetimes. A bit of perspective is strongly needed in all of this.

My grandmother talks about the emergency during WWII. Yes there was rations and people were worried. But in Ireland, we had "neutrality" and kids went to school, you could call into your neighbours, play cards, hug your grandchildren, go to school.

My grandmother hasn't been anywhere since March last year - this has had a much bigger effect on her life and the lives of children.

km79

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

Covid-19: Cabinet set to agree plan for reopening schools
Ministers are also expected to discuss new Living with Covid plan this evening

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-cabinet-set-to-agree-plan-for-reopening-schools-1.4488626

And from that article information that contradicts what MM said earlier
“ Under the current proposals Leaving Certificate students, junior and senior infants and fifth-year students would be the first classes to return”

hesaidshesaid

km79 wrote: »

And from that article information that contradicts what MM said earlier
“ Under the current proposals Leaving Certificate students, junior and senior infants and fifth-year students would be the first classes to return”

Are we even surprised any more?

JP100

BTownB wrote: »

My grandmother talks about the emergency during WWII. Yes there was rations and people were worried. But in Ireland, we had "neutrality" and kids went to school, you could call into your neighbours, play cards, hug your grandchildren, go to school.

My grandmother hasn't been anywhere since March last year - this has had a much bigger effect on her life and the lives of children.

She would have been part of a generation where members of families went out to their demise and never to be seen again in battlefields all across Europe. While all most of this generation have been asked to do is stay at home as much as possible and limits contacts and with an end now in sight in terms of vaccines. I'd take the latter any day over having trying to live through a war situation.

Lmkrnr

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

Absolutely agree.
I've taught children with the ecce year and ones that didn't receive it. By the end of junior infants they were all the same. Yea it might be a little more difficult for the teacher in the beginning but teachers are well used to that and will adapt. As will the children.
I am wholeheartedly in favour of the pre school year . You definitely see a change in the children for the better when coming to the school but I'm also in favour of making sure they and their families are kept safe first. Missing a couple of months of the pre school year isn't going to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, whereas losing a family member of covid definitely will

I want my kids to return to school too, the only thing that bothers me is that its not conducive to reducing Covid case's. So why open?

hesaidshesaid

JP100 wrote: »

She would have been part of a generation where members of families went out to their demise and never to be seen again in battlefields all across Europe. While all most of this generation have been asked to do is stay at home as much as possible and limits contacts and with an end now in sight in terms of vaccines. I'd take the latter any day over having trying to live through a war situation.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think that this generation has many more people living alone which has added to the isolation, for elderly people in particular. In the past they would more likely have been living with family. In terms of kids, families have less kids now and often both parents working, so the kids have less social contact and parents are under more external pressure. All generalisations I know, but I think they have added significantly to our societal response. Living through a war situation was awful of course, but at least people could meet others and help each other through it.

iamwhoiam

JP100 wrote: »

It'll be harder work for the infant teachers but schools and teachers will adapt and the kids will be fine. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived through wars and what we have been asked to do for the last year or so is much more minor than some of our grandparents and great grandparents had to endure in their lifetimes. A bit of perspective is strongly needed in all of this.

My own MIl lived through a world war and suffered incredible hardship , she would never dismiss others struggles though . She always had an empathetic word for others.This is not a war or a tsumami but its our worries right now and this is what is being discussed
One thing I learned as a young nurse was never to dismiss a patients worry because someone else was much sicker

kandr10

I read there that it could be infants up to second class going back first with the leaving certs.definitely a move in the right direction but I’m still slightly apprehensive about sending my kid in. Anyone else the same? I mean I will send her and it’ll be great for her but I still have this underlying anxiety. I also found she became more anxious while at school as she was hearing a vocabulary and discussion around covid that we wouldn’t give her, but then that’s the nature of mixing with other isn’t it!

JP100

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

I agree with this to an extent, but I think that this generation has many more people living alone which has added to the isolation, for elderly people in particular. In the past they would more likely have been living with family. In terms of kids, families have less kids now and often both parents working, so the kids have less social contact and parents are under more external pressure. All generalisations I know, but I think they have added significantly to our societal response. Living through a war situation was awful of course, but at least people could meet others and help each other through it.

It's undeniably tough for people presently but I just think what some of the generations who came before us had to go through was extremely harrowing. Take for instance, the example of the young men (of which Ireland had numerous) who pretty much lived in trenches during World War 1 - the dire conditions they lived in, the rampant diseases that spread uncontrollablly through people in the trenches, horrible diseases such as trench foot etc and when they did leave the trenches to try to gain the tiniest piece of ground on the enemy those young men often married with young kids at home were inevitably charging to their deaths. Being a young man in 1914 with conscription on the cards and just a downright desperation for a wage was/is a hell of alot harder than being a young man in 2021 living through a pandemic in which all he is been asked to do is stay at home as much as possible and limit contacts. That is not to say that the isolation is not tough for people but I just think some perspective is needed in all of this.

As an aside, I suggest all young people in particular should visit the World War 1 museum in Ballyjamesduff where they've actually built and recreated WW1 trenches. It's a real eye opener as to what people went through during those times and a brilliant educational day out for both adults and kids alike. So, well worth a visit!

pc7

pc7 wrote: »

It is, ECCE was closed in line with schools and you mentioned school closures don't affect 4 year olds, they do. There are also 4 year olds in junior infants.

ECCE may have closed in line with Schools but many creches are still full to the brim with full day care because of the wide number of jobs that were considered essential.

Ironically, many creche workers are having to help children with their school work.

If only creche workers had a powerful union looking out for their best interests, they would be right there with teachers, putting their health and safety first of them and the children in their care.

pc7

Well my smallies went back to creche last week, we held off sending them until numbers reduced as we qualified under essential. Our busy Dublin based creche is far from full and they were letting all parents send kids in should they wish.
I wish creche workers were paid and looked after better, that's for another day. But thankfully, our creche has had no cases since reopening and hopefully it stays that way. The change in our smallies has been fantastic, it is so noticeable to see how happy they are to be with other kids again.

PeterPan92

I post this every few weeks and everyone ignores it as it doesn't suit either perspective (i.e. "Open Schools Immediately" or "Keep Schools Closed").

There are countless reasons to keep schools closed: new strains of the virus that spread faster, particularly among the younger age groups; lack of change in requirements and aid to schools; poor ventilation in some schools; huge class numbers; the slow rate of rollout of the vaccine; numbers remaining high, etc.

There are also many reasons to open schools: allow children to socialise; provide routine and structure; education is better in person (though still possible virtually); provide a childminding service to begin to reopen the economy, etc.

Both scenarios have pros and cons. An idea for both is:

STAGGERED DAYS.

Classes split into "Group A" and "Group B". Group A come into school Monday and Tuesday. Group B come in Wednesday and Thursday. The 3 other days are used to continue home learning. Teacher's can use Friday to plan online work for the following week. This way no age group or child misses out. Every child will still have some routine in school and time to socialise. Reduced number would allow for actual social distancing in the classroom. Also, with less children it would allow for any struggles to be better addressed as the groups are so small.

Children receiving support would receive this in school on their "in days", and online on their "off days".

Surely it's better than the current nothing, and should suit both teachers and parents. Childminding could be an issue for teachers, but it is something they will have to deal with like doctors and nurses had to (this is coming from a teacher).

Sanjuro

PeterPan92 wrote: »

I post this every few weeks and everyone ignores it as it doesn't suit either perspective (i.e. "Open Schools Immediately" or "Keep Schools Closed").

There are countless reasons to keep schools closed: new strains of the virus that spread faster, particularly among the younger age groups; lack of change in requirements and aid to schools; poor ventilation in some schools; huge class numbers; the slow rate of rollout of the vaccine; numbers remaining high, etc.

There are also many reasons to open schools: allow children to socialise; provide routine and structure; education is better in person (though still possible virtually); provide a childminding service to begin to reopen the economy, etc.

Both scenarios have pros and cons. An idea for both is:

STAGGERED DAYS.

Classes split into "Group A" and "Group B". Group A come into school Monday and Tuesday. Group B come in Wednesday and Thursday. The 3 other days are used to continue home learning. Teacher's can use Friday to plan online work for the following week. This way no age group or child misses out. Every child will still have some routine in school and time to socialise. Reduced number would allow for actual social distancing in the classroom. Also, with less children it would allow for any struggles to be better addressed as the groups are so small.

Children receiving support would receive this in school on their "in days", and online on their "off days".

Surely it's better than the current nothing, and should suit both teachers and parents. Childminding could be an issue for teachers, but it is something they will have to deal with like doctors and nurses had to (this is coming from a teacher).

I think teachers should work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All the notions of rest and free time are frankly selfish. If they're not in class with some of the class, they should be working on the work submitted by those not in class.

PeterPan92

Sanjuro wrote: »

I think teachers should work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All the notions of rest and free time are frankly selfish. If they're not in class with some of the class, they should be working on the work submitted by those not in class.

This exaggeration and hyperbolic scenario inventing is unhelpful to everyone. We're all adults. Let's act like it, shall we?

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

That bit in bold is actually a shocking read. It smacks of toxic family dynamics. In our home we treat each other with the same respect we would treat anyone else. The home should be the first model, not 'what not to do' vs 'what to do' in & outside the home. My kids aren't allowed to abuse each other, or anyone else. We talk about self respect and self love too. People should be nurturing and reinforcing a loving and supportive family home home environment, full stop.

I just want to clarify on my post this morning about resolving issues as kids by "tearing the hair off each other". This was very much a tongue in cheek (supposed to be humorous ) comment. I am 59 and was reared in the 60's and 70's in a family of 7 kids! My parents were brilliant and we were very well brought up, all going to convents and colleges. We had a loving and nurturing home environment. The main lesson we learnt from our parents was respect for others.

But my parents were not supervising us every minute of the day and there were always rows about toys and who won what game!!
I consider our way of growing up and learning how to resolve issues as fun and healthy. It did none of us any harm. We all grew into healthy well balanced adults and to this day we all get along famously! Some of us went on to boarding schools, some didn't. Believe it or not we were quite able to form friendships and relationships and become very successful in our jobs.


There was absolutely nothing toxic about my childhood and its bizarre that someone I don't know could make that judgement about me or my family.

Things were different then, kids were far more resilient and less pampered. When you grow up with 7 kids in a family you're not going to get 1-2-1 attention from your parents all the time. We learnt a lot from each other, the older ones teaching the younger ones. To this day we laugh about our childhood ways and our childhood fights!
We have all become great parents ourselves, even if I say so myself.

Sorry for going way off topic. This was my first post on this thread and I just wanted to clarify what I meant in my post.

yrreg0850

Deleted User wrote: »

If only creche workers had a powerful union looking out for their best interests, they would be right there with teachers, putting their health and safety first of them and the children in their care.

Where would we be if the if any of the unions involved in the health service, both medical and non medical adopted the same stance as the teaching unions ?

beggars_bush

PeterPan92 wrote: »

I post this every few weeks and everyone ignores it as it doesn't suit either perspective (i.e. "Open Schools Immediately" or "Keep Schools Closed").

There are countless reasons to keep schools closed: new strains of the virus that spread faster, particularly among the younger age groups; lack of change in requirements and aid to schools; poor ventilation in some schools; huge class numbers; the slow rate of rollout of the vaccine; numbers remaining high, etc.

There are also many reasons to open schools: allow children to socialise; provide routine and structure; education is better in person (though still possible virtually); provide a childminding service to begin to reopen the economy, etc.

Both scenarios have pros and cons. An idea for both is:

STAGGERED DAYS.

Classes split into "Group A" and "Group B". Group A come into school Monday and Tuesday. Group B come in Wednesday and Thursday. The 3 other days are used to continue home learning. Teacher's can use Friday to plan online work for the following week. This way no age group or child misses out. Every child will still have some routine in school and time to socialise. Reduced number would allow for actual social distancing in the classroom. Also, with less children it would allow for any struggles to be better addressed as the groups are so small.

Children receiving support would receive this in school on their "in days", and online on their "off days".

Surely it's better than the current nothing, and should suit both teachers and parents. Childminding could be an issue for teachers, but it is something they will have to deal with like doctors and nurses had to (this is coming from a teacher).

Most schools in Ireland are multi grade