Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Icyseanfitz

Any sort of indication of when mainstream post primary will be back? As for bumping SNAs up the vaccine list, I'll believe it when i bloody see it, this entire academic year has been nothing but lies and false promises to anyone with a child in school or anyone working in one.

Regarding the SA variant, thought i saw that they tagged some cases of it in the last week in Ireland? If its in the uk, its here unfortunately.

KrustyUCC

Few cases of SA variant alright

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-variants-ireland-5340285-Jan2021/

Very positive news that SNE will resume in February

Stateofyou

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Few cases of SA variant alright

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-variants-ireland-5340285-Jan2021/

Very positive news that SNE will resume in February

I'm not very optimistic it's totally contained, especially with the UK now going on door to door hunts for it. Are we looking for it in every positive sample I wonder?

Just saw this article on RTE, I wonder if it will have or is already having an effect on the delay of reopening schools.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0201/1194377-coronavirus-ireland/

The Chief Medical Officer has said that while there has been much improvement in relation to the incidence rate of Covid-19, he is concerned that progress is slowing down.

Dr Holohan said: "While we have experienced very significant improvement in incidence over recent weeks, I am concerned that it appears to be slowing down at much too high a level of infection.

"People need to take real care in any setting in which they come into contact with others.

"In particular, workplaces and retail settings need to review their existing protocols and ensure that their staff and customers are protected as much as possible.

"Given the prevalence of the B117 variant and how infectious it is, it is extremely important that people take all preventative measures possible, including staying home."

Dr Glynn said that what is coming through is that people are acquiring this in their workplaces.

He said because the variant first identified in the UK is more transmissible, every time we drop our guard, it is likely to have greater consequences that a couple of months ago.

Dr Glynn said: "Now is not the time to be going into a workplace, unless you really have to."

byhookorbycrook

km79 wrote: »

I just couldn’t deal with that
Ye are a different breed

I think most primary teachers wouldn’t want to teach in secondary and most secondary teachers wouldn’t want primary.
I’m at the stage of being able to recognise which of one family’s dogs is the one barking . Oh , and if anyone wants kittens , I know of a cat who just had 4. Mammy wants to find new homes , child wants to keep all of them . Child has graciously offered all 4 to me . My husband can’t abide cats at the best of times , much less having an entire family traipsing in at will Rogers check the kittens’ progress.

billy_beckham

Stateofyou wrote: »

Wow. I've never heard any science or health experts say this, I must have missed it! Link?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55863841

Locotastic

Stateofyou wrote: »

Dr Glynn said that what is coming through is that people are acquiring this in their workplaces.

He said because the variant first identified in the UK is more transmissible, every time we drop our guard, it is likely to have greater consequences that a couple of months ago.

Dr Glynn said: "Now is not the time to be going into a workplace, unless you really have to."

Its a pity the government didn't legally enforce that employers had to allow staff to work from home where they can.

There are businesses who are making staff come to work unnecessarily, have been all along, when they could easily be working from home.

No protection for staff in these cases, it's come to work or lose your job.

wirelessdude01

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Few cases of SA variant alright

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-variants-ireland-5340285-Jan2021/

Very positive news that SNE will resume in February

Locotastic wrote: »

Its a pity the government didn't legally enforce that employers had to allow staff to work from home where they can.

There are businesses who are making staff come to work unnecessarily, have been all along, when they could easily be working from home.

No protection for staff in these cases, it's come to work or lose your job.

Also well known that certain areas of the civil service had some managers who insisted that staff come into the office when there was no need to. It was talked about in here or in the preceeding thread at length at the time when it was reported. Utter stupidity.

Locotastic

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Also well known that certain areas of the civil service had some managers who insisted that staff come into the office when there was no need to. It was talked about in here or in the preceeding thread at length at the time when it was reported. Utter stupidity.

Yes but we now legally have 'the right' to ask to work from home (and still be told no). I guess some employers will never adapt.

If I was a business owner I'd be very hesitant to expose my company to an outbreak. You'd think that they'd be concerned at the very least from a business continuity point of view and reputational risk.

50% of staff at my company could easily work from home without any special provisions. But we are not allowed to. Yet if those staff contracted covid or had to isolate then the company would have to shut up shop for the duration.

Doesn't make sense.

Maybe in 6 months time the government will come down strictly on it, they seem to work on a year of hindsight basis.

wirelessdude01

Locotastic wrote: »

Yes but we now legally have 'the right' to ask to work from home (and still be told no). I guess some employers will never adapt.

If I was a business owner I'd be very hesitant to expose my company to an outbreak. You'd think that they'd be concerned at the very least from a business continuity point of view and reputational risk.

50% of staff at my company could easily work from home without any special provisions. But we are not allowed to. Yet if those staff contracted covid or had to isolate then the company would have to shut up shop for the duration.

Doesn't make sense.

Maybe in 6 months time the government will come down strictly on it, they seem to work on a year of hindsight basis.

Comes down to some managers/owners not trusting their staff. Their style is one of 'micro-managing'. Not sustainable.

Before I retrained, I worked for a large multinational. At one stage a new manager was appointed to oversee our small group. 4 of us had either left or changed departments within six weeks of their arrival such was their level of micromanagement. They also hadn't a clue what they were meant to be managing and were causing huge issues for other areas due to their management of us. Our leaving interviews made for interesting listening!!!

Responder XY

Stateofyou wrote: »

The date of the article is Sat, Jun 27, 2020. And it's a journalist piece the Irish Times. Nothing to do with the new variant and comparing it to risk and education.



July 2020, same. Nothing with regards to the new variants.



Dec 2020 article, would obviously be reporting on findings before then, which would be before the impact of new variants. Seems to be general impact on children and school closures. I'm not reading all that to find out if it has anything on new variants (how could it have) but a quick scan seemed to confirm it did not. Pull it out if so though. It's 85 pages long, good luck.



And the opening sentence on this one reads: "What new COVID variants mean for schools is not yet clear." "...But researchers now suggest the variant is spreading more efficiently in all age groups..." It says in conclusion more data is needed. And "However, data often aren’t easily comparable between countries because of the variation in practices." “We still don’t really know how much schools and children actually contribute to spread,” says Catherine Bennett, an epidemiologist at Deakin University in Melbourne.

With regards to the variant, it talks about their potential biological impact in children- I don't see anywhere it specifically talks about that even in light of new variants driving up community spread around the world and overwhelming hospitals, it is still worth it above all to keep schools open and therefore hospitals ovwerwhelmed, for example.

You're absolutely full of it with this nonsense. Also, just posting links is ridiculous, and expecting anyone to read full articles and reports. If you read them and feel it highlights your point, you should pull that info out and post it with the link.

Well that was a complete waste of my time, thanks. You don't have links to anything so far to back up what you claimed.

Are you expecting absolutely everything to be spelt out for you? If you apply some of your own thoughts you might get the connections. I probably shouldn't have expected better from an internet forum, but I'm worried about the quality of critical thinking on a thread that's dominated by teachers. Not a good oman for our future.

I will spell it out on this occasion. I won't be back to do it again. Happy to discuss the finer points or if you have actual conflicting evidence.

1. The older ones links about harm done by removing kids from education. I see absolutely no reason why that has changed.

2. The most recent article from public health england calls out that there is no evidence that the variant is any more damaging to Children. Admittedly, that can't be definitively stated, but very little can. There is plenty of evidence that Covid (original version) is not very risky to children and no evidence that the variants are any worse. I'm in favor of operating on evidence that something is the case rather than a lack of evidence that it is not. 

Therefore I'd suggest that the available evidence says that on balance, harm done to children by not giving education outweighs the risks posed by Covid.
Do you have any evidence to support that either denial of education is not harmful, or that the variants are more threatening to children's health? I've yet to see anything suggesting either.

I know covid can cause harm, schools could spread through wider society. Here we enter the area of judgement. My very firm judgement is that we should prioritise the needs of children above other sectors of society. Some forms of restrictions are needed - but they need careful cost benefit analysis. Costs on denial of education are great (as per my links). Can't be justified to me. 

sekond

At what point would people contact the school about the (lack of) engagement by one particular teacher?

My daughter's school have been excellent - online classes by timetable, sometime a full class, sometimes just setting some work. Activities to keep them interested and communicating with friends/classmates, acknowledgement of when they need a break from online learning. With the exception of 1 teacher who sends an email per class with "read this, do questions". No feedback, no explanations. I wasn't particularly bothered when it was just 3 weeks, and I thought there were perhaps teething problems, but it hasn't changed, and it's looking like at least another month of this, probably more. I don't want to be that parent, and I know there is a lot going on in the school, and the principal is probably well aware of the level of engagement, but I'm getting a bit concerned at home much is technically being covered on the curriculum but not actually taught. I'm not expecting live classes - it's entirely possible that this teacher has stuff going on that makes it impossible, but a video, some feedback on work submitted maybe?

So do I just try my best to try to teach my daughter the subject and hope for the best? (She's a bright kid, but we've had instances in the past where if she misses stuff, she struggles to catch up. If this topic is considered "taught" by the teacher already, then she will likely never catch up on it if we don't teach her now). It's not my area of expertise, I'm not a teacher, and I'm working full time from home, so while we could probably manage something, it adds an extra layer of stress.

scouserstation

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Why is a mid term needed . After all it is usually intended to give students a break , but, they have had one since mid December.

I think yesterday's decision was just spin to make it look like they had achieved an early re opening of schools when in reality it will be after mid term before its practical to bring SN kids back in to the school setting properly, another cop out by government and unions

Icyseanfitz

yrreg0850 wrote: »

Why is a mid term needed . After all it is usually intended to give students a break , but, they have had one since mid December.

Kids have not had a break, most have been learning from home, our students have 3-4 live classes a day

Deeec

sekond wrote: »

At what point would people contact the school about the (lack of) engagement by one particular teacher?

My daughter's school have been excellent - online classes by timetable, sometime a full class, sometimes just setting some work. Activities to keep them interested and communicating with friends/classmates, acknowledgement of when they need a break from online learning. With the exception of 1 teacher who sends an email per class with "read this, do questions". No feedback, no explanations. I wasn't particularly bothered when it was just 3 weeks, and I thought there were perhaps teething problems, but it hasn't changed, and it's looking like at least another month of this, probably more. I don't want to be that parent, and I know there is a lot going on in the school, and the principal is probably well aware of the level of engagement, but I'm getting a bit concerned at home much is technically being covered on the curriculum but not actually taught. I'm not expecting live classes - it's entirely possible that this teacher has stuff going on that makes it impossible, but a video, some feedback on work submitted maybe?

So do I just try my best to try to teach my daughter the subject and hope for the best? (She's a bright kid, but we've had instances in the past where if she misses stuff, she struggles to catch up. If this topic is considered "taught" by the teacher already, then she will likely never catch up on it if we don't teach her now). It's not my area of expertise, I'm not a teacher, and I'm working full time from home, so while we could probably manage something, it adds an extra layer of stress.

We have a similar issue with my daughters teacher - shes primary school though. Have you spoke to other parents of kids in the class - Its probable that the other parents have similar concerns. In our case all the parents complained to the principle. No changes have been made by the school yet but hopefully she will organise an alternative soon.

BonsaiKitten

sekond wrote: »

At what point would people contact the school about the (lack of) engagement by one particular teacher?

I would make contact, yes. An email a week isn't in line with the DES guidelines for remote learning. I'd start with contacting the teacher rather than immediately escalating to the principal.

If/when you have to contact the principal, I'd also make a point of praising the other teachers who are engaging well.

sekond

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I would make contact, yes. An email a week isn't in line with the DES guidelines for remote learning. I'd start with contacting the teacher rather than immediately escalating to the principal.

If/when you have to contact the principal, I'd also make a point of praising the other teachers who are engaging well.

I don't think we have contact details for the teacher (by email, I actually meant the teacher sends a google classroom message to the class group). We do have a contact for the year head. So I could probably start there rather than going straight to the principal? And yes, will definitely praise the other teachers and the school as a whole - I've been really impressed about how smoothly they moved to online learning and how well they wrangled an inexperienced bunch of 1st years into the process.

JPF82

sekond wrote: »

At what point would people contact the school about the (lack of) engagement by one particular teacher?

My daughter's school have been excellent - online classes by timetable, sometime a full class, sometimes just setting some work. Activities to keep them interested and communicating with friends/classmates, acknowledgement of when they need a break from online learning. With the exception of 1 teacher who sends an email per class with "read this, do questions". No feedback, no explanations. I wasn't particularly bothered when it was just 3 weeks, and I thought there were perhaps teething problems, but it hasn't changed, and it's looking like at least another month of this, probably more. I don't want to be that parent, and I know there is a lot going on in the school, and the principal is probably well aware of the level of engagement, but I'm getting a bit concerned at home much is technically being covered on the curriculum but not actually taught. I'm not expecting live classes - it's entirely possible that this teacher has stuff going on that makes it impossible, but a video, some feedback on work submitted maybe?

So do I just try my best to try to teach my daughter the subject and hope for the best? (She's a bright kid, but we've had instances in the past where if she misses stuff, she struggles to catch up. If this topic is considered "taught" by the teacher already, then she will likely never catch up on it if we don't teach her now). It's not my area of expertise, I'm not a teacher, and I'm working full time from home, so while we could probably manage something, it adds an extra layer of stress.

Sorry to hear you are having such issues. I'm a secondary teacher myself, just saw this on my break. Try contact the teacher via email first to see if there is an explanation. I see no issue with the Principal being informed also, but maybe give the teacher a chance to explain.

It is our job to provide an education as best we can and you should not worry about being "that" parent. Your concerns are entirely valid and I would be disappointed if it were a colleague of mine doing so little when the rest of us are putting the hours in.

BonsaiKitten

sekond wrote: »

I don't think we have contact details for the teacher (by email, I actually meant the teacher sends a google classroom message to the class group). We do have a contact for the year head. So I could probably start there rather than going straight to the principal? And yes, will definitely praise the other teachers and the school as a whole - I've been really impressed about how smoothly they moved to online learning and how well they wrangled an inexperienced bunch of 1st years into the process.

Tbh I feel like I'd go to the principal rather than the year head because this other teacher is a colleague of the year head, I don't know if it'd be something they could resolve for you. But I'm not secondary so may be way off base there? I know there's a few secondary teachers here who'd have a better understanding.

Stateofyou

billy_beckham wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55863841

No. I wasted my time again on an article in which you couldn't pull out the point proving the original claim that there have been expert conclusions that schools should open despite the new variants in light of the harm caused to children. Because it isn't there.

At the end of the day, no one is saying there isn't harm being done. And a lot of that harm is happening disproportionately in countries where girls especially slip into a life of early marriage and abuse. It's very sad and it is happening all over the world pandemic or no pandemic. But we are facing a virus that is so contagious it overwhelms health systems. A society can't function without it, and a collapsed health care system causes even more suffering and death. Until we get our heads out of our arses and invest properly in education supports and mitigation measures for safety, sn supports, and control the border better, this is what we're left with. It's not ideal for anyone. That's my opinion.

Idbatterim

again I will ask, why are teaches getting flack? when its a government decision to keep schools closed. When it is a government decision to not prioritise education?

Stateofyou

Locotastic wrote: »

Yes but we now legally have 'the right' to ask to work from home (and still be told no). I guess some employers will never adapt.

If I was a business owner I'd be very hesitant to expose my company to an outbreak. You'd think that they'd be concerned at the very least from a business continuity point of view and reputational risk.

50% of staff at my company could easily work from home without any special provisions. But we are not allowed to. Yet if those staff contracted covid or had to isolate then the company would have to shut up shop for the duration.

Doesn't make sense.

Maybe in 6 months time the government will come down strictly on it, they seem to work on a year of hindsight basis.

That would mean the employee has the recourse to take a claim with the WRC and I would imagine the employer would have to give a reasonable defence as to why they are not allowing work from home to happen. I vaguely remember reading that such a case has already happened, and I think the outcome was the employer losing the defence. I'll try to find it and post it...

wirelessdude01

sekond wrote: »

At what point would people contact the school about the (lack of) engagement by one particular teacher?

My daughter's school have been excellent - online classes by timetable, sometime a full class, sometimes just setting some work. Activities to keep them interested and communicating with friends/classmates, acknowledgement of when they need a break from online learning. With the exception of 1 teacher who sends an email per class with "read this, do questions". No feedback, no explanations. I wasn't particularly bothered when it was just 3 weeks, and I thought there were perhaps teething problems, but it hasn't changed, and it's looking like at least another month of this, probably more. I don't want to be that parent, and I know there is a lot going on in the school, and the principal is probably well aware of the level of engagement, but I'm getting a bit concerned at home much is technically being covered on the curriculum but not actually taught. I'm not expecting live classes - it's entirely possible that this teacher has stuff going on that makes it impossible, but a video, some feedback on work submitted maybe?

So do I just try my best to try to teach my daughter the subject and hope for the best? (She's a bright kid, but we've had instances in the past where if she misses stuff, she struggles to catch up. If this topic is considered "taught" by the teacher already, then she will likely never catch up on it if we don't teach her now). It's not my area of expertise, I'm not a teacher, and I'm working full time from home, so while we could probably manage something, it adds an extra layer of stress.

First step is to contact the teacher concerned and ask in a nice constructive manner whether it would be possible to have some video tutorials and feedback on work submitted. Based on the response to that you could then go to the principal and voice your concerns. Do not go straight to the principal as it needs to follow process. Do it today. No point wasting any further time.

What class are we talking about here?

Stateofyou

Responder XY wrote: »

Don't agree at all. Damage the variants do is less than the damage done to children kept out of education. 

Responder XY wrote: »

To spell it out. Education is worth the risk. I'm calling for schools to open as soon as possible...

Responder XY wrote: »

Of course there's not going to be a piece of research saying damage due to loss of education = 10 and damage from variants =9, ergo we should open education. There's going to be some judgement involved here. Most people think schools should be open after applying their judgement.

There is plenty of research out there saying that covid in general and it's variants do not present any significant risk to children. I'm not going out in a limb in saying that lack of education does harm children. If you dispute either of these facts then go for it. I'm not googling it for you.

I realise that virus spread might damage others in society. I am of the view that education needs to be prioritised none the less and other measures need to be taken to protect those vulnerable to covid.

Responder XY wrote: »

There are many. Here are some thst i sourced quite quickly highlighting the harms of halting education and the low risk provided to kids and young people by covid im general and its variants

Responder XY wrote: »

Are you expecting absolutely everything to be spelt out for you? If you apply some of your own thoughts you might get the connections. I probably shouldn't have expected better from an internet forum, but I'm worried about the quality of critical thinking on a thread that's dominated by teachers. Not a good oman for our future.

I will spell it out on this occasion. I won't be back to do it again. Happy to discuss the finer points or if you have actual conflicting evidence.

1. The older ones links about harm done by removing kids from education. I see absolutely no reason why that has changed.

2. The most recent article from public health england calls out that there is no evidence that the variant is any more damaging to Children. Admittedly, that can't be definitively stated, but very little can. There is plenty of evidence that Covid (original version) is not very risky to children and no evidence that the variants are any worse. I'm in favor of operating on evidence that something is the case rather than a lack of evidence that it is not. 

Therefore I'd suggest that the available evidence says that on balance, harm done to children by not giving education outweighs the risks posed by Covid.
Do you have any evidence to support that either denial of education is not harmful, or that the variants are more threatening to children's health? I've yet to see anything suggesting either.

That's some pretty fancy dancing around you're doing here. Trying to belittle and insult me as per your last comment just goes to show the shaky ground and logic you're really standing on.

You originally claimed the damage the virus does and its variants is less than the damage done in keeping children out of education (insert: they are still IN education here). I commented that I hadn't heard any experts conclude that is the case and asked for links. You actually admit to there being no research to point to it, but "judgement" aka your opinion is all you have here. Then you try to cleverly dance around all the research and expert conclusions you say of which "there is many" highlighting the harm "halting education" (they are still being educated here) and "the low risk provided to kids and young people by covid im general and its variants."

"And it's variants." Yeah, an article you posted talked about "the variants" but it didn't make the conclusions you claim it did. It simply speculated on how much the new variants might biologically affect children.

None of what you posted makes no expert comparisons or conclusions of the risk to health and health care systems of the new variants especially, to keeping schools open in spite of that and the reality of high transmission and overwhelmed hospitals.

So please, you won't be spelling anything out because you can't. You also made false claims saying there is no evidence the new variants have worse impact on children when there is research to suggest it is, but to the best of my knowledge nothing has been concluded yet.

You say you haven't seen any evidence of the harm yet the links you posted you admitted to "sourcing quite quickly" so you obviously quickly looked for things on google to support your own bias, instead of remaining open-minded. If you had googled just a little differently, you would also find links to articles showing data and signs pointing to the possible greater effect of new variants on children.

But the point is, at the end of the day, you have still not shown that experts have concluded that keeping schools open in light of the new variants spreading rapidly overwhelming health care systems and being more virulent, is the right course of action.

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

That would mean the employee has the recourse to take a claim with the WRC and I would imagine the employer would have to give a reasonable defence as to why they are not allowing work from home to happen. I vaguely remember reading that such a case has already happened, and I think the outcome was the employer losing the defence. I'll try to find it and post it...

That was the case regarding the three accommodation officers for a university.

wirelessdude01

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Tbh I feel like I'd go to the principal rather than the year head because this other teacher is a colleague of the year head, I don't know if it'd be something they could resolve for you. But I'm not secondary so may be way off base there? I know there's a few secondary teachers here who'd have a better understanding.

Yeah I would imagine that the year head would be for children, not for cracking the whip on colleagues. Teacher, principal, BoM would the escalation process.

billy_beckham

Idbatterim wrote: »

again I will ask, why are teaches getting flack? when its a government decision to keep schools closed. When it is a government decision to not prioritise education?

https://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-union-back-to-school-leaving-cert-5318602-Jan2021/

THE ASSOCIATION OF Secondary Teachers in Ireland (ASTI) and Teachers Union of Ireland both directed their members today not to co-operate with the Government’s plan for in-school teaching for Leaving Cert students.

The ASTI instead directed members to engage with remote learning from Monday onwards.

Nothing to do with the government!

sekond

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Yeah I would imagine that the year head would be for children, not for cracking the whip on colleagues. Teacher, principal, BoM would the escalation process.

Thanks. Thinking about it, I think they sent some material that outlined various contacts and who/when we should get in touch. Will dig it out before I get in contact with anyone, to make sure I'm following the right process.

wirelessdude01

billy_beckham wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-union-back-to-school-leaving-cert-5318602-Jan2021/

THE ASSOCIATION OF Secondary Teachers in Ireland (ASTI) and Teachers Union of Ireland both directed their members today not to co-operate with the Government’s plan for in-school teaching for Leaving Cert students.

The ASTI instead directed members to engage with remote learning from Monday onwards.

Nothing to do with the government!

At primary level it most definitely is a government decision. Forsa and the INTO cannot as it stands issue a directive to not attend school.

Locotastic

Stateofyou wrote: »

That would mean the employee has the recourse to take a claim with the WRC and I would imagine the employer would have to give a reasonable defence as to why they are not allowing work from home to happen. I vaguely remember reading that such a case has already happened, and I think the outcome was the employer losing the defence. I'll try to find it and post it...

Yes there was a case won a week or so ago by an employee (or I should say ex-employee).

She had already decided to resign before taking the case because the employer wouldn't allow her to do her job from home.

She won, so hopefully a bit of a message to employers.

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1192125/

sekond

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

What class are we talking about here?

1st year geography. Really not my strong point for helping her with, give me a language subject any day...