Creches - Lockdown III

pc7

Got this back from our creche when I asked for an update.

'Nothing yet we are awaiting Clarification from the DCYA, we hopefully will have an email going out later on or tomorrow'

JDD

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

It is a complete mess.

The creche is right, they do still need to have staff there to mind the essential workers - at the moment they likely have no idea who an essential workers. If they have 40% less kids that doesnt mean 40% less staff, the electricity and heating still needs to be paid.

Needs to be remembered not all creches (and I would include my childrens in this) are money grabbing gougers.

It feels very much like its guidance to creches at the moment as opposed to rules, as its all so bloody unclear.

Creche's got some kind of special government compensation last year, to pay for overheads, rent, office staff and creche workers, so that parents would not have to pay.

I would assume that this time around the government will subsidise them if say, 60% of the parents are not considered essential workers, and therefore 60% of the children cannot attend. No way is everyone going to pay €1000 per child per month for a service the creche cannot provide.

ThunbergsAreGo

JDD wrote: »

Creche's got some kind of special government compensation last year, to pay for overheads, rent, office staff and creche workers, so that parents would not have to pay.

I would assume that this time around the government will subsidise them if say, 60% of the parents are not considered essential workers, and therefore 60% of the children cannot attend. No way is everyone going to pay €1000 per child per month for a service the creche cannot provide.

Assuming with the Government is very dangerous. They are rightly waiting on guidance for that. There has been nothing, and while I dont disagree with the lockdown per say, the communications on what has been very likely for at least a week is shambolic.

Even with that, its not full pay/compensation for a creche/worker. Very difficult in an Industry where staff retention is hard to tell someone to go home for 3 months on 2/3rds pay.

salmocab

JDD wrote: »

Creche's got some kind of special government compensation last year, to pay for overheads, rent, office staff and creche workers, so that parents would not have to pay.

I would assume that this time around the government will subsidise them if say, 60% of the parents are not considered essential workers, and therefore 60% of the children cannot attend. No way is everyone going to pay €1000 per child per month for a service the creche cannot provide.

They probably will do something but crèches can’t be expected to make plans without information. The last time at least everything was done in a hurry, this has been coming for a while. Heard school principals on radio earlier saying we’ve been preparing for lots of different scenarios for months and then they threw a different scenario on us and want it up and running in a matter of days.
All these things should have been ready to go with information available immediately. Whilst some providers may take the proverbial most are in the dark and will try to do the best by everyone.

JDD

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Assuming with the Government is very dangerous. They are rightly waiting on guidance for that. There has been nothing, and while I dont disagree with the lockdown per say, the communications on what has been very likely for at least a week is shambolic.

Even with that, its not full pay/compensation for a creche/worker. Very difficult in an Industry where staff retention is hard to tell someone to go home for 3 months on 2/3rds pay.

The creche subsidy scheme paid creche workers up to €586 net of tax per week. There wouldn't be many creche workers earning €30k or more a year after tax. That was all to ensure that creche's could reopen with a full staff complement once the temporary crisis had passed, and so that parents didn't have to pay fees under stressful circumstances.

There's no difference now, to then. They should get access to the same scheme, with their payment reduced to take into account the number of children of essential workers - who will continue to pay fees - that are attending the creche.

ThunbergsAreGo

JDD wrote: »

The creche subsidy scheme paid creche workers up to €586 net of tax per week. There wouldn't be many creche workers earning €30k or more a year after tax. That was all to ensure that creche's could reopen with a full staff complement once the temporary crisis had passed, and so that parents didn't have to pay fees under stressful circumstances.

There's no difference now, to then. They should get access to the same scheme, with their payment reduced to take into account the number of children of essential workers - who will continue to pay fees - that are attending the creche.

Except nothing has been said of the scheme. The government need to provide clear guidance on what needs to happen.

Instead we have had a list of essential workers taken down for over 18 hours now

Paddy1234

Does anyone know when we can expect the essential workers list to be updated?

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Except nothing has been said of the scheme. The government need to provide clear guidance on what needs to happen.

Instead we have had a list of essential workers taken down for over 18 hours now

JDD

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Except nothing has been said of the scheme. The government need to provide clear guidance on what needs to happen.

Instead we have had a list of essential workers taken down for over 18 hours now

Oh I know. I wonder what's taking them so long. Perhaps they have prepared exactly diddlysquat for this eventuality. I mean, no-one could have predicted the massive rise in cases post-Christmas, but surely someone somewhere might have prepared SOMETHING in case our creches had to close again?

God. This country.

angela1711

Are they updating the list of essential services or is this the final thing https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/c9158-essential-services/

My work is listed there as an essential service but I am an office worker so I am not too sure If I should still be physically attending work. Work can be 100% done from home just need to try and say that to my employer who has the utmost disregard for any sort of restrictions and only cares about profits.

Sweet.Science

The irony in complaining about creches and fees is that a lot of them might not get through this lockdown and there will be nowhere to send your kids

ax530

we got the message from creche this afternoon. Up to parents to decided & let them know if they are an essential worker and if child will attend.
I dont consider myself one and I am working from home however from looking at the list on gov.ie seems I could be by their classification (financial, insurance and banking services - that covers a lot of jobs I'd expect!!!).
Found it so difficult last time even with an understanding employer. Not sure how I am goign to do it this time around - need to decide between taking time off or learning not to care about work.
But main concern is everyone keeping well and not giving this virus anywhere to go.

pc7

Sweet.Science wrote: »

The irony in complaining about creches and fees is that a lot of them might not get through this lockdown and there will be nowhere to send your kids

A bigger irony is paying a 4 figures sum for childcare you cant use, I don't think people are being unreasonable in wanting to know the plan or arrangements.

As I've said we have paid for our pair for January but chose not to send them this week due to figures trying to pull on the green jersey and all that. But I'll be fairly sick if I can't send them and its open to only 'essential' workers and I've to pay.

Sweet.Science

pc7 wrote: »

A bigger irony is paying a 4 figures sum for childcare you cant use, I don't think people are being unreasonable in wanting to know the plan or arrangements.

As I've said we have paid for our pair for January but chose not to send them this week due to figures trying to pull on the green jersey and all that. But I'll be fairly sick if I can't send them and its open to only 'essential' workers and I've to pay.

I agree its not fair on parents . That's where the government must step in . However from speaking to the owner of my kids creche this morning they are in the dark

They were waiting to get more info today

A farce

Paddy1234

angela1711 wrote: »

Are they updating the list of essential services or is this the final thing https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/c9158-essential-services/

My work is listed there as an essential service but I am an office worker so I am not too sure If I should still be physically attending work. Work can be 100% done from home just need to try and say that to my employer who has the utmost disregard for any sort of restrictions and only cares about profits.

I missed the following statement from this list. It’s at the bottom of the list.

“Essential workers are those providing the services below where such services can only be provided in person and cannot be delivered remotely.”

Is that not fairly clear cut then - if your profession is on the list but you can work from home you are not an essential worker.

I missed this part and was just looking at the list which had my profession on it and assumed I was essential worker.

angela1711

Paddy1234 wrote: »

I missed the following statement from this list. It’s at the bottom of the list.

“Essential workers are those providing the services below where such services can only be provided in person and cannot be delivered remotely.”

Is that not fairly clear cut then - if your profession is on the list but you can work from home you are not an essential worker.

I missed this part and was just looking at the list which had my profession on it and assumed I was essential worker.

Yeah I was thinking that too. Well technically I am involved in the processing of data which is listed under section 13 as a necessary support service but at the same time I can be processing this data from home.

Also just got a text from the crèche saying that if you want to send your child in next week you, the crèche needs a confirmation from both parents employers to certify that they are essential workers.


By the looks of things I am not essential even though my employer would gladly lie about that (but the girls in the crèche now what I do) and my husband's work is not going to certify anything as he is on sick leave for the last year and a half. Meaning that we are left with no childcare one way or the other. Husband is not able to care for our toddler on a full time basis.

JDD

Paddy1234 wrote: »

I missed the following statement from this list. It’s at the bottom of the list.

“Essential workers are those providing the services below where such services can only be provided in person and cannot be delivered remotely.”

Is that not fairly clear cut then - if your profession is on the list but you can work from home you are not an essential worker.

I missed this part and was just looking at the list which had my profession on it and assumed I was essential worker.

Good man Paddy. I missed that myself. I doubt our HR department will give a letter to any employee who has been working remotely for 10 months that confirms that they can only work in person. That will help my colleague out immensely.

Doesn't help me unfortunately - I'm the opposite in that I WANT to send my child to creche even though I am WFH. Ho hum, what will be will be. I'll see what the creche says and what criteria they apply.

Gemma1982

Paddy1234 wrote: »

I missed the following statement from this list. It’s at the bottom of the list.

“Essential workers are those providing the services below where such services can only be provided in person and cannot be delivered remotely.”

Is that not fairly clear cut then - if your profession is on the list but you can work from home you are not an essential worker.

I missed this part and was just looking at the list which had my profession on it and assumed I was essential worker.

I had missed that part too. I agree - it seems clearcut that if you can wfh, you’re not an essential worker. Whoever came up with that has clearly never tried to wfh with two children under the age of five. Mentally it nearly drove me over the edge during the last lockdown. I did a terrible job in work and a terrible job at parenting.

Theboinkmaster

i dont care about the fees, though it's a nice bonus not to pay them

we have 3 and 5 year old at home both work full-time and it's impossible.

we are deemed essential and creche is confirmed as staying open.

despite the pain we didnt send 3 year old in this week due to case numbers.

my issue is the creche workers mostly get public transport and could easily infect our daughter and she then passes to us.

so as hard as it is im thinking of keeping her home for a few weeks until the case nos are steadily declining and less than 1,000 per day.

it's a difficult decision though as life would be so much easier if we sent her in, but the cases are just so high....other than supermarket that's really the only place we could pick up COVID that I'd deem a high risk.

baldbear

So basically if you can work from home you are not an essential worker.
So does that mean parents don't pay? (Selfish thinking) we have a 18month old and a 4 year old. Place was like a war zone today ��

JDD

baldbear wrote: »

So basically if you can work from home you are not an essential worker.
So does that mean parents don't pay? (Selfish thinking) we have a 18month old and a 4 year old. Place was like a war zone today ��

Haven't head anything from the government yet about extending the childcare covid scheme to creche's this time around, but I am going to assume they will do the same thing as last time.

We're not going to pay anyway, not if the creche don't take our 3 year old on Monday.

pc7

angela1711 wrote: »

By the looks of things I am not essential even though my employer would gladly lie about that (but the girls in the crèche now what I do) and my husband's work is not going to certify anything as he is on sick leave for the last year and a half. Meaning that we are left with no childcare one way or the other. Husband is not able to care for our toddler on a full time basis.

Could you get your gp to do a letter saying husband can’t mind kid and you get one from employer and then they may take them.

thunderdog

My crèche have indicated that they are aligning the closure of the Creche with school closures so the Creche will be fully closed to all kids (essential and non essential workers) until the schools fully reopen. While it’s going to be a tricky few weeks with both of us working (1 essential), it’s a fair enough position from the Creche I think.

RiseToMe

Our creche confirmed that unless our letter states we cannot do our job from home, we cant send our kids in.

I'm mid exams as a mature student, heading into a 36 hours per week lecture load including two days in person (medical discipline) as we missed so much last semester, wife is a senior manager dealing with brexit fallout and is pregnant. We have a 20 month old and a 3 year old so they need supervision so I'm going to have to can my studies and waste all the fees paid so far.

tfeldi

Just on RTE:

"The Minister for Children has said his Department has asked childcare providers to repay, refund or credit fees to parents from next Monday.

Speaking on RTÉ's Drivetime Minister Roderic O'Gorman said there is a "sustainability service" for those who feel they may not survive in this current surge.

He said the Employment Wage Subsidy Scheme will continue to be paid at the higher rate for childcare services until the end of March.

The Minister said the State has made a significant investment to support childcare providers, which he said on average pays for the cost of about 80% of the staff of childcare providers

He said the childcare sector is the only sector in which there is a blanket exemption that all businesses in the sector can access the EWSS.

Mr O'Gorman said his Department's legal team is examining how to make it mandatory for services to return fees to parents.

He also said his Department is currently examining ways to assist in supporting in childcare of frontline healthcare workers."

As in March, ECCE payments are not being made either. Which means zero income for pre schools and crèches.

pc7

Our creche sent a letter that isn’t overly clear. I ‘think’ it says we can send them in if we want and to let them know tomorrow. I’ve emailed for more info.

BBMcQ

Total new information again, more contradiction.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8fdc1-faqs-for-parents-of-children-in-early-learning-and-care-and-school-age-childcare-services-07-january/

Jim_Hodge

BBMcQ wrote: »

Total new information again, more contradiction.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8fdc1-faqs-for-parents-of-children-in-early-learning-and-care-and-school-age-childcare-services-07-january/

I'm sorry but where is the contradiction? It answered all my questions precisely .

BBMcQ

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

I'm sorry but where is the contradiction? It answered all my questions precisely .

Oh indeed the FAQ is very clear. But it’s contradicting another government page saying that essential workers are only those that leave the home to work.

9. (Paraphrase) An essential worker maybe be working from home.

But then elsewhere on the main COVID19 list of essential workers:
“Essential workers are those providing the services below where such services can only be provided in person and cannot be delivered remotely. It does not include administrative and other support for such businesses and services unless specified in section 13 and the physical presence of a worker is required. Physical attendance at workplaces is only permitted for such essential workers.”

Jim_Hodge

BBMcQ wrote: »

Oh indeed the FAQ is very clear. But it’s contradicting another government page saying that essential workers are only those that leave the home to work.

9. (Paraphrase) An essential worker maybe be working from home.

But then elsewhere on the main COVID19 list of essential workers:
“Essential workers are those providing the services below where such services can only be provided in person and cannot be delivered remotely. It does not include administrative and other support for such businesses and services unless specified in section 13 and the physical presence of a worker is required. Physical attendance at workplaces is only permitted for such essential workers.”

You're comparing two statements. A newer statement cancels and supersedes an older one.

From the creche perspective it is clearly stated: An essential worker may be working from home.

ThunbergsAreGo

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

You're comparing two statements. A newer statement cancels and supersedes an older one.

From the creche perspective it is clearly stated: An essential worker may be working from home.

So is a teacher an essential worker?

Jim_Hodge

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So is a teacher an essential worker?

Yes.

BBMcQ

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

You're comparing two statements. A newer statement cancels and supersedes an older one.

From the creche perspective it is clearly stated: An essential worker may be working from home.

They are both updated on the same day!

Clouron

Thats interesting so..

Based on the list, and now the change aswell to essential workers working from home,....more creches could open? The list is long!

Paddy1234

Clouron wrote: »

Thats interesting so..

Based on the list, and now the change aswell to essential workers working from home,....more creches could open? The list is long!

Yes - I think this changes the dial completely. Surely now the majority of people will fall into the essential services list.

salmocab

The crèches were informed last night that whilst the parents were given an FAQ for issues the crèches wouldn’t receive one until sometime today. There will be more inevitable issues caused by this as the crèches are still waiting on information and parents will be saying what they’ve been told. This is very badly handled, why weren’t contingency’s organised and ready to communicate clearly?

JDD

Yeah I got the FAQs from work today as well. So I fall into the essential category, even though I am working from home. And the FAQs are clear that only one parent needs to be an essential worker.

I would say the essential worker list includes at least half of the workforce. My husband's work definitely doesn't fall into the essential worker category, but he managed to find a section that vaguely sounds like what they do, and their HR department is willing to give a letter to confirm it.

I wonder how many children are in creches across the country? Probably loads in Dublin and probably not as many outside Dublin.

The one upside for us is that most of the people who live on our estate work for Microsoft or one of the other local tech companies. There isn't a hope they'd fall into the essential category so hopefully there'll be less than half the children in my 3 year o'ds room.

DublinCJM

We'd an email from creche at midday today.

Dear Parents/Guardians

We are pleased and relieved to have received clarification, yesterday, from DCEDIY (formerly DCYA). NPHET's advice is that childcare services are safe for both children and staff. We look forward to working closely with DCEDIY and are assuring you that the creche will remain open and welcoming of children from Monday next, 11 January 2021.

Sessional Pre-school Care (9:30am-1pm, 5 days per week, term time) will resume on Monday 1 February 2021 as per government guidelines.

Should you require full day After School Care from 11 January - 31 January 2021 please confirm by way of return email.

quarryman

DublinCJM wrote: »

We'd an email from creche at midday today.

Dear Parents/Guardians

We are pleased and relieved to have received clarification, yesterday, from DCEDIY (formerly DCYA). NPHET's advice is that childcare services are safe for both children and staff. We look forward to working closely with DCEDIY and are assuring you that the creche will remain open and welcoming of children from Monday next, 11 January 2021.

Sessional Pre-school Care (9:30am-1pm, 5 days per week, term time) will resume on Monday 1 February 2021 as per government guidelines.

Should you require full day After School Care from 11 January - 31 January 2021 please confirm by way of return email.

Heh? What about "essential workers only"?

pc7

quarryman wrote: »

Heh? What about "essential workers only"?

Our creche has basically said if you wfh and can't with the kids there we are open send them in.

ThunbergsAreGo

pc7 wrote: »

Our creche has basically said if you wfh and can't with the kids there we are open send them in.

I think ours will be saying the same from everything they have said this week

pc7

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I think ours will be saying the same from everything they have said this week

I just don't know what to do, had kept them home this week due to numbers. They want an answer today if we are sending them back.

salmocab

quarryman wrote: »

Heh? What about "essential workers only"?

I’d say the reality is the list of essential is so long and flexible that the amount of kids that wouldn’t be sent us quite small. The crèches may as well just take all and get the fees in.
I really do wonder though why schools are closed for safety reasons but not crèches where the kids are less likely to adhering to rules.

ThunbergsAreGo

pc7 wrote: »

I just don't know what to do, had kept them home this week due to numbers. They want an answer today if we are sending them back.

I am the same, wife is a teacher and has been stressing all week about having them home, but I think the rota we have could work.

That said I trust our creche, and the people going to it to be pretty locked down for the next while - so the risk is small enough (or as large as going to the shop!)

That said sending them to creche likely will mean the grandparents will stay away - decisions decisions....

ThunbergsAreGo

salmocab wrote: »

I’d say the reality is the list of essential is so long and flexible that the amount of kids that wouldn’t be sent us quite small. The crèches may as well just take all and get the fees in.
I really do wonder though why schools are closed for safety reasons but not crèches where the kids are less likely to adhering to rules.

Its incredibly unfair on creche workers (and creches themselves) - they have been treated really poorly through this.

On the essential workers, this should and is meant to be those who are on site during the course of the lockdown, we all know this. Feels like we are trying to get around it by looking at badly worded documents etc.

salmocab

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Its incredibly unfair on creche workers (and creches themselves) - they have been treated really poorly through this.

On the essential workers, this should and is meant to be those who are on site during the course of the lockdown, we all know this. Feels like we are trying to get around it by looking at badly worded documents etc.

To be fair last year after a bit of dicking about the staff of most places were looked after with full pay to stay at home. The state did right by them in the first lockdown but now it seems that a political decision has been made to keep them open, at best the risks are the same in a crèche and a school, really though a crèche has kids that can’t wipe their own noses or sit still even. Crèche staff are far more likely to catch anything from kids than a teacher is. Anything in the crèche is far more likely to spread than anything in a school.

DublinCJM

quarryman wrote: »

Heh? What about "essential workers only"?

They've now just sent another mail saying for essential workers only or vulnerable kids....

pc7

I just can't in good conscience send ours in, will hold them out for the month of January and see how thing look then for February. Will likely lose the fees but our health is more important at this stage and just feel its the right thing to do. We'll muddle through for the next 3 weeks with the hope February things look better.

conor-mr2

DublinCJM wrote: »

They've now just sent another mail saying for essential workers only or vulnerable kids....

Yup ours too. It's probably the same creche 😊

We will be looking for clarification on fees as we use direct debit and had paid for January. If we're not able to use the service then we would look for fees being returned for the time we have not been able to use the service. I don't blame the creche. This has been really poor organization and guidance from the government for creches.

neris

ten past four on a Friday and the Government still havent communicated with creches how they should open next week or what if any funding will be available so its at a point now where the individual creches have to decide what they are going to do and how they are going to charge fees etc