2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

cnocbui

PropQueries wrote: »

Double glazed windows, a bed, couch, shower, oven, sink, a few presses and a heater is all single young renters are looking for. About €15k all in.

That will then allow the houses that are currently rented by the room to 20 year olds to be made available to actual families to buy or rent.

zisdead wrote: »

Never mentioned 15,000 or anything to do with habitability so stop with the Pollyanna stuff.

I said no accommodation over a shop will cost 5000 euro to heat. I stand by that.

I also provided a link to a very typical over a shop accommodation type in North Dublin. You showed yours. Does Not change my point one bit. It was comfortable and affordable.

I didn't say you did. How about reading some of the thread and getting a gist of the contexts before popping in and jumping to conclusions. I said 'people' not 'you'.

Easy Rod

cnocbui wrote: »

Ireland has the world's highest inheritance tax rate, something I am sure you would approve of wholeheartedly. One of the consequences of that is someone inheriting a substantial and old building might not be left with the finances required to maintain or renovate it.

This country is awash with socialists like McWilliams and yourself who have naive ideas about property ownership.

So why would they just let it sit there empty, degrading in condition? If they didn’t have the money to maintain or renovate, they’d sell it.

Over the years I have lived in many different properties.
My favourites were two old houses, built in the 1850s. Open fires, one did have oil heating. Old sash windows.
Character.
I'd live in one any day before the boring boxes they build now. A rated houses can't even have a fire.
There's some beautiful buildings in Dublin, shops in the ground floor, with 3 storeys empty above. There would be many people that would love to live in the city, in apartments with some character.
It could bring a new life to those buildings.

PropQueries

bubblypop wrote: »

Over the years I have lived in many different properties.
My favourites were two old houses, built in the 1850s. Open fires, one did have oil heating. Old sash windows.
Character.
I'd live in one any day before the boring boxes they build now. A rated houses can't even have a fire.
There's some beautiful buildings in Dublin, shops in the ground floor, with 3 storeys empty above. There would be many people that would love to live in the city, in apartments with some character.
It could bring a new life to those buildings.

David McWilliams asked this question a while back:

“How come there are only 100,000 people living between the canals in Dublin when at the same time in Copenhagen there are close to 600,000 living in more or less the same footprint?

Copenhagen is not high-rise city, rather it is an intensively-used six-storey city. The main difference is usage. In Copenhagen buildings are used in their entirety; in Dublin and other Irish cities they have been allowed to go to ruin, and there is no penalty associated with dereliction.”

There’s the solution to our housing “shortage” right there. And, it’s quite literally staring out politicians in the face every time they travel to the Dail.

It is insane that all this potential housing stock is going to waste in the middle of our capital city and at the same time allowing thousands of homes to still be built in the commuter counties.

With the Greens in power, one would have to wonder if they have any real policies outside of increasing heating and travel costs for poor people IMO

L1011

cnocbui wrote: »

This country is awash with socialists like McWilliams

There really aren't that many people who would consider David McWilliams a socialist.

MacronvFrugals

Does anyone really think this type of stuff can last forever? Also can this put to bed any talk that Ireland is not a tax haven.

It relates to the housing market in the sense how long will the EU put up with this, our multi national cash cow.


The Currency 22nd February - What does it say when a multinational can book a $3.6bn profit in Ireland and not pay any tax?

It has no employees and generates marginal revenues. But an Irish subsidiary of EMC has just booked a massive tax-free profit through the sale of intellectual property and inter-company debt flows. Sound familiar?

https://thecurrency.news/articles/37357/what-does-it-say-when-a-multinational-can-book-a-3-6bn-profit-in-ireland-and-not-pay-any-tax/

AlmightyCushion

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Does anyone really think this type of stuff can last forever? Also can this put to bed any talk that Ireland is not a tax haven.

It relates to the housing market in the sense how long will the EU put up with this, our multi national cash cow.


The Currency 22nd February - What does it say when a multinational can book a $3.6bn profit in Ireland and not pay any tax?




https://thecurrency.news/articles/37357/what-does-it-say-when-a-multinational-can-book-a-3-6bn-profit-in-ireland-and-not-pay-any-tax/

Whatever about anything else, their claim it has no employees isn't accurate.

http://sta.ie/partner/emc

EMC established its manufacturing facility in Ovens, Cork in 1988. This was the first EMC plant outside of North America and is now the largest one outside the US. It is known as a Centre of Excellence and incorporates research, training as well as manufacturing. An investment of €20 million was made in the Research and Development Centre in 2008 as part of its 20th anniversary celebrations. The EMC sales offices are located in Dublin and Belfast.

In 2012, a partnership with University College Cork and the Irish Management Institute (IMI) saw the development of a new executive programme, the Masters in Data Business.

EMC now employs over 3,000 people in Ireland

PropQueries

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Whatever about anything else, their claim it has no employees isn't accurate.

http://sta.ie/partner/emc

Would be interesting to know how the negotiations on the new OECD global tax rules are progressing.

The bigger economies i.e. the States, UK, Germany etc. must have changed tack since last March IMO.

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

I would LOVE to see the statistics on the percentage of renters who don't pay their rent.

I would guess it's a lot lot lower than the percentage of investment property borrowers who don't meet their loan repayments.

But if an investment property owner defaults on his loans and keeps his investment property for the next ten years, people have no problem. But if a 22 year old losses his job and misses his rent people would like him to be turfed out the next day.

I love the hypocrisy in this country.

In either case, with HAP, the councils long-term lease agreements etc., the probability of a landlord not getting his rent money is the lowest it has been in the history of the state IMO

Your contradicting yourself here with regards to 2 opinions you have. You think landlords are leaving so they can sell to avail of capital gains and that in your opinion they will be out of negative equity. So in essence we should of seen a glut of properties come on the market for sale (which has not happened) Yet you have been banging on here about 100k properties left unoccupied. Now we know small landlords are leaving the game , the amount of property for sale has not gone up, so what is happening to these properties? If you can square that peg in your own logic??? Can you not see that landlords are holding their properties open , have not put them up for sale and are not putting them back up for rent. As has been pointed out the paradigm between renters and landlords has shifted significantly (financially) in favor of tenants. If you have a rogue landlord the tenant may lose their deposit, if you have a rogue tenant the landlord could lose a year of rent and money to fix back up their property. The risk for a small landlord now renting a property out is at a point where its not worth it. Therefore they are getting out of the game the REITS can afford this kind of messing therefore they will be the new landlords of the future.

awec

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/cork-set-for-new-jobs-with-20m-investment-from-us-company-1.4492655

Another 200 new jobs announced today from foreign investment.

This lines up with the narrative on here that Ireland will be getting no more FDI and our multinationals will be heading out the door any day now.

MacronvFrugals

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Whatever about anything else, their claim it has no employees isn't accurate.

http://sta.ie/partner/emc

I don't have a subscription so cant see the whole piece but i assume its the subsidiary that has no employees, all the same not a penny in tax is outrageous, Europe's treasure island as they say.

handlemaster

I haven't been following the mood recently. What's the feeling out there with prices now and the market in general. The expected drop in prices hasn't really happened. I guess there have to be tailoring off of central bank money at some stage which will make an effect.

awec

Friend of mine works for EMC in Cork so it's definitely false that they have no employees.

awec

In other property news, the ESRI are suggesting that the only thing keeping a lid on property prices now are the lending rules, otherwise prices would be up to 9% higher than they currently are.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/house-prices-could-be-9-higher-without-central-bank-s-lending-rules-1.4492204

In the same article, I think the Central Bank are suggesting their own analysis is that without their rules prices could be up to 25% higher than they are now.

The rules are doing their job!

Zenify

awec wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/cork-set-for-new-jobs-with-20m-investment-from-us-company-1.4492655

Another 200 new jobs announced today from foreign investment.

This lines up with the narrative on here that Ireland will be getting no more FDI and our multinationals will be heading out the door any day now.

One swallow does not make a summer. I think it's a bit early to be jumping to those conclusions. Let's see what happens with the new tax rules and wfh.

awec

Zenify wrote: »

One swallow does not make a summer. I think it's a bit early to be jumping to those conclusions. Let's see what happens with the new tax rules and wfh.

I think this is the 3rd or 4th Swallow in the past few months this stage.

Anyway, no conclusions here, just an interesting counter point to the dogma that has been posted.

discodiva92

bubblypop wrote: »

Over the years I have lived in many different properties.
My favourites were two old houses, built in the 1850s. Open fires, one did have oil heating. Old sash windows.
Character.
I'd live in one any day before the boring boxes they build now. A rated houses can't even have a fire.
There's some beautiful buildings in Dublin, shops in the ground floor, with 3 storeys empty above. There would be many people that would love to live in the city, in apartments with some character.
It could bring a new life to those buildings.

So you want an apartment with a fire?

MacronvFrugals

awec wrote: »

Friend of mine works for EMC in Cork so it's definitely false that they have no employees.

The 'Double Irish' is still alive and well under a new name it seems...

With the EU recently voting to name Ireland as a tax haven i just cant see it not being clamped down on eventually

Ireland was named as a tax haven in a resolution adopted by the European Parliament on Thursday, which also called on the bloc to introduce minimum “effective" tax rates.

https://www.independent.ie/business/fianna-fail-mep-says-vote-to-class-ireland-as-tax-haven-was-a-mistake-40000263.html

Hubertj

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

I don't have a subscription so cant see the whole piece but i assume its the subsidiary that has no employees, all the same not a penny in tax is outrageous, Europe's treasure island as they say.

I think the question should be where will tax be paid on it. If it’s nowhere that’s not good. But if that money goes back to the US I presume some form of tax is paid. It’s like the apple tax case. Tax was always going to be paid, question was where.

MacronvFrugals

Hubertj wrote: »

I think the question should be where will tax be paid on it. If it’s nowhere that’s not good. But if that money goes back to the US I presume some form of tax is paid. It’s like the apple tax case. Tax was always going to be paid, question was where.

EMC paid no and will pay no tax on that $3.6 billion, facilitated by Ireland.

They're using EMC International and EMC Information Systems as part of their Double Irish technique, wasn't this loophole supposed to be closed last year i thought.

MacronvFrugals

Hotels are flying up in the capital, 17% increase in rooms this year!

More than 4,000 hotel beds to be completed in Dublin this year

New beds will increase existing stock in the capital of 24,000 by 17 per cent, according to Mitchell McDermott construction sector report

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/more-than-4000-hotel-beds-to-be-completed-in-dublin-this-year-60e22ae0

Hubertj

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

EMC paid no and will pay no tax on that $3.6 billion, facilitated by Ireland.

They're using EMC International and EMC Information Systems as part of their Double Irish technique, wasn't this loophole supposed to be closed last year i thought.

Is that what the article says? It’s behind a paywall.

wowy

Hubertj wrote: »

I think the question should be where will tax be paid on it. If it’s nowhere that’s not good. But if that money goes back to the US I presume some form of tax is paid. It’s like the apple tax case. Tax was always going to be paid, question was where.

Seamus Coffey has been making this point on Twitter about this article, and other articles about US MNCs not paying tax in Ireland/EU but ultimately paying tax in the US.

https://twitter.com/seamuscoffey/status/1364155669507674112?s=20

fliball123

Zenify wrote: »

One swallow does not make a summer. I think it's a bit early to be jumping to those conclusions. Let's see what happens with the new tax rules and wfh.

Looks like a gulp of swallows

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-than-400-000-jobs-created-in-irish-economy-in-six-years-before-covid-crisis-1.4288324#:~:text=reversed%20the%20trend-,More%20than%20400%2C000%20jobs%20were%20created%20in%20the%20Irish%20economy,hit%20and%20reversed%20the%20trend.&text=The%20CSO%20figures%20show%20that,all%2Dtime%20of%202.35%20million.


https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/cc269-16496-new-jobs-created-by-enterprise-ireland-supported-companies-in-2020/

https://www.idaireland.com/newsroom/ida-ireland-announces-results-for-2020-and-tanaist

https://www.thejournal.ie/amazon-1000-new-jobs-ireland-5160547-Jul2020/

PropQueries

fliball123 wrote: »

If you have a rogue landlord the tenant may lose their deposit, if you have a rogue tenant the landlord could lose a year of rent and money to fix back up their property. The risk for a small landlord now renting a property out is at a point where its not worth it.

So a landlord with an investment property in e.g. Galway City where rental yields are currently c. 10% is selling up due to the extremely slim chance of a tenant not paying their rent and may lose a years rent (i.e. return).

Let’s do the maths.

A landlord in Galway sells his investment property for e.g. €200k. Puts the sales proceeds in the bank and receives 0% or €0 per annum return.

Or. He keeps his investment property and collects c. 10% or €20,000 per annum.

Over a ten year period he can generate either €0 (or close to €0) in the bank or €200,000 from continuing to rent his property based on current interest rates and rental yields.

Even in the zero percent chance a tenant doesn’t pay his rent for e.g. 5 of those 10 years, the landlord is still quids in big time.

He can also sign up for one of those many government subsidy schemes for landlords (e.g. long term lease agreements etc., i.e. welfare for landlords) and guarantee a similar c.8% to 10% return over the next ten or so years.

Yes, the landlord pays tax on his rental income just like every other 9 to 5er in Ireland. Tax really isn’t an issue by placing his sales proceeds on deposit as he’s generating little to no income anyway from depositing it in the bank, so tax is obviously not an issue there.

A landlord selling his property due to the very very slim chance of a tenant not paying their rent for a year is not a very wise investment decision IMO

Link to Galway rental yields in SBP: https://www.businesspost.ie/commercial/rent-rises-outside-dublin-boosted-gross-yields-to-double-digit-levels-in-2020-81a4b0af

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

So a landlord with an investment property in e.g. Galway City where rental yield are currently c. 10% are selling up due to the extremely slim chance of a tenant not paying their rent and may lose a years rent (i.e. return).

Let’s go the maths.

A landlord in Galway sells his investment property for e.g. €200k. Puts the sales proceeds in the bank and received 0% or €0 per annum return.

Or. He keeps his investment property and collects c. 10% or €20,000 per annum.

Over a ten year period he can generate either €0 (or close to €0) in the bank or €200,000 from continuing to rent his property based on current interest rates and rental yields.

Even in the zero percent chance a tenant doesn’t pay his rent for e.g. 5 of those 10 years, the landlord is still quids in big time.

He can also sign up for one of those many government subsidy schemes for landlords (e.g. long term lease agreements etc., i.e. welfare for landlords) and guarantee a similar c.8% to 10% return over the next ten or so years.

Yes, the landlord pays tax on his rental income just like every other 9 to 5er in Ireland. Tax really isn’t an issue by placing he proceeds on deposit as he’s generating little to no income anyway from depositing it in the bank, so tax is obviously not an issue there.

A landlord selling his property due to the very very slim chance of a tenant not paying their rent for a year is not a wise investment decision IMO

Link to Galway rental yields in SBP: https://www.businesspost.ie/commercial/rent-rises-outside-dublin-boosted-gross-yields-to-double-digit-levels-in-2020-81a4b0af

The math is done for you already and in bulk, not on your one off opinion as in properties coming up for sale now there are less than half the properties available now for sale than there was this time last year also the amount of sales are down also. So for a good number of years the number of small landlords have been dropping. Surely we would of seen a spike in the amount of properties for sale if your contention was right?

Also your forgetting pre tax costs - mortgage, insurance and maintenance and then tax costs income tax, PRSI, USC, property tax. that 10% soon dwindles to a point where its not worth it.

Why would you gamble?

https://www.thejournal.ie/residential-tenancies-board-difficult-tenants-tom-dunne-4852391-Oct2019/

Throw in that rents are now capped as well as the changes that now see tenants have all the cards when it comes to disputes its no wonder they are leaving

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/small-private-landlords-are-quitting-in-their-droves-says-seller-of-glenageary-house-1.4089315

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1213/1016879-rent_index/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/why-are-landlords-leaving-the-market-in-large-numbers-1.3360363

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/small-time-landlords-are-being-forced-out-of-market-37126402.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tenants-who-stop-paying-rent-can-live-free-for-18-months-30452306.html

Then throw in the extra protections tenants have been afforded during covid. Its just not worth your while to have 1 or 2 properties

PropQueries

fliball123 wrote: »

Throw in that rents are now capped as well as the changes that now see tenants have all the cards when it comes to disputes its no wonder they are leaving

The rents were “capped” at a rent level when rents were at their highest levels in the history of the state.

And landlords are still allowed to increase rents by 4% per annum I believe. Hardly a punishment on existing landlords and hardly an incentive to sell IMO

Browney7

fliball123 wrote: »

The math is done for you already and in bulk, not on your one off opinion as in properties coming up for sale now there are less than half the properties available now for sale than there was this time last year also the amount of sales are down also. So for a good number of years the number of small landlords have been dropping.

Also your forgetting pre tax costs - insurance and maintenance and then tax costs income tax, PRSI, USC, property tax. that 10% soon dwindles to a point where its not worth it.

Why would you gamble?

https://www.thejournal.ie/residential-tenancies-board-difficult-tenants-tom-dunne-4852391-Oct2019/

Throw in that rents are now capped as well as the changes that now see tenants have all the cards when it comes to disputes its no wonder they are leaving

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/small-private-landlords-are-quitting-in-their-droves-says-seller-of-glenageary-house-1.4089315

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1213/1016879-rent_index/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/why-are-landlords-leaving-the-market-in-large-numbers-1.3360363

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/small-time-landlords-are-being-forced-out-of-market-37126402.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tenants-who-stop-paying-rent-can-live-free-for-18-months-30452306.html

Considering landlords have been prohibited from ending tenancies (due to Covid pandemic restrictions) on the grounds of sale for the guts of a year now (with the exception of a few months here and there) it's no surprise the properties available for sale has plummeted. No way of quantifying how many properties that are for sale at any one time are ex rental though

Galwayhurl

Unrelated question, but what are the commission and other charges that a Real Estate Agent will charge if you're selling a house?

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

The rents were “capped” at a rent level when rents were at their highest levels in the history of the state.

And landlords are still allowed to increase rents by 4% per annum I believe. Hardly a punishment on existing landlords and hardly an incentive to sell IMO

I agree but if your looking at that from a landlords point of view it means your stuck at what returns you can get for your property. I am not saying its wrong. I am just saying its one of the many changes that has made small landlords leave.