Changes/proposed changes to Northern Ireland gun laws.

Cass

Seems the PSNI are now making "policy", which i'm at a loss to understand is legal but not seemingly a law, that each magazine and component will be subject to registration at a fee. That being £30 per application (as many items per application as you want).

They say this is to register and track the amount of magazines being bought, their capacity as well as other firearm parts.

I don't understand it fully, not being in any way knowledgeable on NI firearm laws, but it appears to be either a mistake (on the part of the PSNI) with regard to the meaning of the firearms act or a willful ignoring of the act and an attempt to implement a non lawful addendum to the firearms act without it being actually amended.

Full details here.

Wadi14

Cass any way of getting a read at that for us non Facebook gang ?

Cass

Full text below. Its a little hard to distinguish who is speaking and what is quotation of the text from the PSNI, but i've tried my best to make it clearer.


**********************************************************************************************************************************

The PSNI Licensing dept today made an announcement that has the potential to negativly impact legal gun owners in Northern Ireland.

We have been contacted by representatives of the Northern Ireland gun trade who have leaised with others organisations, and have given us at the Owner Rights Cooperative a statement which we have agreed to publish in full as an act of solidarity with legal Northern Irish gun owners.

This includes email addresses should anyone want answers or don't fully understand the proposals, but we ask out of respect for our organisation and the legal shooters here, if you do contact anyone in the police to be respectful and polite, we thank you in advance.

We also feel we should point out it could happen on the mainland if its that easy here.

The statement is as follows

"Merry Christmas.
(Just make sure you have no magazines or springs in your stockings)
PSNI Advises shooters to break the law.

PSNI Today went live with a new process requiring all shooters to apply online for their magazines, and component parts of firearms. It is currently unclear if this has to be done retrospectively, or if this is for new purchases only.

It would seem that PSNI feel that ALL magazines and their capacity need to be recorded, as well as any component parts a shooter wishes to acquire.

Each application will cost £30.00, but heh you can apply for more than one at time.

The PSNI email and Website states that (full email below)
“If it is to be purchased over the internet then at PROOF OF PURCHASE and DEALER NAME there is the facility to enter for example ‘Online purchase’ and the name of the company.”

However this directly contradicts the 2004 Northern Ireland Firearms order where it states at;

PART IV CONTROL OF TRANSACTIONS
Transfers of firearms and ammunition to be in person
39.—(1) This Article applies where in Northern Ireland a firearm or ammunition is sold, let on hire, lent or given by any person (“the transferor”) to another person (“the transferee”) who is neither the holder of a firearms dealer’s certificate nor a person who is entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without a firearm certificate or a visitor’s firearm permit.
(2) Where this Article applies—
(a)the transferee must produce to the transferor the certificate or permit entitling him to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition being transferred;
(b)the transferor must comply with any instructions contained in the certificate or permit produced by the transferee;
(c)the transferor must hand the firearm or ammunition to the transferee, and the transferee must receive it, in person.
(3) A person who fails to comply with paragraph (2) shall be guilty of an offence.

Some of the readers may well feel that it clearly states Transfers of Firearms and ammunition, which it does. However and rather importantly and in tune with PSNI Firearms and Explosives Branch new policy the interpretation of the order lists “any component part”. Following this new policy and directly from PSNI’s website all magazines and component parts must therefore be applied for.

To be clear and to give PSNI some credit in the in the Interpretation of the Order it states;

Interpretation
2.—(1) The Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 (c. 33) applies to this Order as it applies to an Act of the Assembly.
(2) In this Order—
“firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—
(a)any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon or not;
(b)any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
(c)any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon

Oddly PSNI FEB did not consult any of the Shooting organisations nor Firearms industry on this New Policy, both of which are aghast at possible outcomes, and rather shocked that PSNI would so blatantly contradict the 2004 Firearms Order.

Obviously this is inline with previous PSNI Firearms Policies where those that it effects are neither consulted nor considered, but it does earn them another £30.00 everytime you want or need to replace a magazine or other component part. No information is available on the timeliness of such applications although given current form, your firearm way well be considered antique before you get you new spring.

If you should wish to seek more clarity on this matter please feel free to politely email either the PSNI Chief Constable Simon Byrne Simon.Byrne@psni.pnn.police.uk
Twitter: @ChiefConPSNI
or Head of PSNI Firearms and Explosives Branch JONATHAN.HOWARTH@psni.pnn.police.uk

The PSNI Email in Full.

“This e-mail has been marked OFFICIAL [PUBLIC];

.
It has come to the attention of Firearms and Explosives Branch that Firearms Certificate holders are purchasing ‘magazines’ for their firearms without first making application to this Branch.

This Branch is therefore requesting that all Firearm Certificate Holders Apply before you Buy.

This will include all firearms and component parts, including magazines.

• Component parts, including magazines are subject to certificate control and may be authorised if an applicant needs replacement or interchangeable parts.

To apply simply complete an online application – instructions on how to complete are as follows:

• TYPE – this is where an FAC holder would select ‘MAGAZINE’ in the dropdown i.e. Magazine x 1 if only one magazine required or Magazine x 2 if 2 magazines are required etc.
• MAKE , MODEL, CALIBRE, SERIAL NUMBER - the FAC holder would enter the details of the firearm they want the magazine for.
• Good reason required under REASON which should include the magazine capacity.
• If it is to be purchased over the internet then at PROOF OF PURCHASE and DEALER NAME there is the facility to enter for example ‘Online purchase’ and the name of the company.

Once your updated FAC is received your new firearm or component part can be ordered or collected.

Please refer to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 Articles 2 (2) and 3(1)b for further information.

Please be aware that it is an offence for an individual to purchase or possess a firearm or component part including magazines unless an application has been made to and approved by this Branch.

If ordering online please be aware that import licensing and the importation of firearms is now the responsibility of the Department for International Trade (DIT). We refer you to the DIT’s Notice to Importers 2922 issued on 16/07/19 - para 6 (importing firearms subject to possession controls in the UK) and para 17 (non-commercial imports of firearms, their components and ammunition). Any further queries regarding importing should be referred to the Department for International Trade.

Please be aware that it would then be your responsibility to comply with this notice and deal with import duties, customs and any other requirements”. "

BattleCorp

So, if a Nordie orders a spring, it's a component and the firearm owner has to register it and pay a £30 fee?

I think I'll get my popcorn for this one.

Cass

Seems to be the case.

They're being very generous though, while its £30 per application you can have as many items as you need/want per application. :rolleyes:

BattleCorp

I'd love to know what that ..........ahem..........bullsh1t (fake) law is supposed to achieve.

tudderone

What fresh hell is this ? Who is pushing for all this anti-shooting, anti-gun crap all of a sudden ? Mag limits, lead ban, this nonsense in the north ? We seem to be under attack even more than usual.

Grizzly 45

Everyone ever notice always at Xmas that these crap presents from various govts arrive for gun owners?
Confiscate the lever actions in the UK and this unnecessary sht sandwich in NI.:rolleyes:

Cass

The ATF tried, and may still be trying something similar in the states.

About 4 or 5 years ago they said people with a brace on their SBR can use it as a pistol and not a rifle. In the last week or two they announced this modification to be illegal and were going to seize all such guns. America being America there was uproar, and rightly so, and they appear to have backed down.

Now sleepy joe and the token "black" person want to introduce a taxation on all firearms and mags to the tune of $200 per item.

One or two incidents may be coincidence, although i don't believe God would be so boring as to simply leave things as coincidence, but this is happening worldwide and more frequently. There is a joint attack on firearm owners along side the "Rona" lockdowns/restrictions.

Mississippi.

tudderone wrote: »

What fresh hell is this ? Who is pushing for all this anti-shooting, anti-gun crap all of a sudden ? Mag limits, lead ban, this nonsense in the north ? We seem to be under attack even more than usual.

Brexit trade negotiations?
Same as Switzerland

Grizzly 45

ATFE has withdrawn from that particular chat group and dropped this nonsense.
Now this could be because they expect ol Sniffy to get into the oval office or the rumour that Trump is "crossing the Delaware" so to speak in January[google the reference to G Washington crossing the Delaware at this time of year ] and is going to throw a major spanner in the works.Of which there does seem to be a good possibility.The Dept of Defence and Joint chiefs of staff has stopped briefing Sniffer again. More states where the election fraud happened are demanding recalls and investigations,and if it gets enough the vice president, Mike Pence, can veto it and demand election re-runs in the affected states. This all comes down to the most incromhensible bit of legislation ever written.The US electoral act.
So still a toss-up as to who will be on the steps on Jan 2021:)

Seems this article about NI, has put the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons:P Was talking to its author, and it seems it was mass flagged as "offensive" by NI /UK gun owners...on FB and removed.:eek: Goes to show if that is the case,we are our own worst enemies still.Why not attack the source of the message and not the messenger?

While in the UK ..The "paint it pink campaign" DID work on the MARS/Lever release ...Somewhat.There were very few photo ops alright, but of course, some goody two shoes didn't paint his pink in the Devon&Cornwall division, and guess what?It ended up being predictably used in a police photo op:rolleyes: The usual blah"rapid firing fully semi-automatic, danger in the wrong hands, could end up on the streets" blah, blah,blah! nonsense.

Seems the rank and file street coppers thought this was a really good one to pull and a right "up yours" to the brass and home office. So a pyrrhic victory to the UK lads on this!

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

The ATF tried, and may still be trying something similar in the states.

About 4 or 5 years ago they said people with a brace on their SBR can use it as a pistol and not a rifle. In the last week or two they announced this modification to be illegal and were going to seize all such guns. America being America there was uproar, and rightly so, and they appear to have backed down.

Now sleepy joe and the token "black" person want to introduce a taxation on all firearms and mags to the tune of $200 per item.

One or two incidents may be coincidence, although i don't believe God would be so boring as to simply leave things as coincidence, but this is happening worldwide and more frequently. There is a joint attack on firearm owners along side the "Rona" lockdowns/restrictions.

I wonder whats talked about a these hush-hush Bilderberg and Un meetings ?

Grizzly 45

Mississippi. wrote: »

Brexit trade negotiations?
Same as Switzerland

Apprently more like the Canada deal.

tudderone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pr0z4_notQ

Grizzly 45

From Mike Lindsay of Owners Rights Cooperative in NI on this;

I've a couple of questions about having to license magazines in Northern Ireland, I'm sure you do too.
1/ Now that it appears legal shooters in Northern Ireland have to ask licensings permission to purchase a magazine, does that now mean all magazines out in the wild as it were need to be registered?
2/ If this is the case will the PSNI be offering their registration free of charge as asking shooters to pay for purchasing mags retroactively seems a bit cheeky?
3/ Will collectors of deacs or just collectors in general now have to register their mags as well?
4/ Will this be an attempt to limit mag capacity in the near future?
5/ Is it not a little myopic to be enforcing a registration of mags when some people have waited 12 months for a renewal?
6/ In relation to part 5 would every shooter in NI applying for mags at the same time not be an own goal?
7/ Will the mags actually be on the licence and if so what is the point in that exactly?
8/ Do air rifle mags need to be registered too?
9/ Will mags have to be serialised like firearms and if not what's the point in registering them?

Just a few questions but ones I feel many here are asking.
And many on the mainland are watching very closely indeed.

Grizzly 45

Owner Rights Cooperative

The ORC has been very busy fighting back against the new magazine Tax being thrown at legal firearm owners in NI, and after a conversation with one of our representatives we have a statement from an NI parliament member.
Jim Allister
·
Allister opposes £30 firearms magazine tax
TUV leader Jim Allister has today written to the Chief Constable expressing concerns about the imposition of what amounts to a £30 tax on the magazines of firearms. This is a matter which has exercised a number of members of the public who have been in contact with Traditional Unionist Voice.
The text of Mr Allister's letter is as follows:
Dear Chief Constable,
Re: Tax on firearms magazines
The introduction of what amounts to a £30 tax, under the guise of licensing, on the magazines of firearms is an intolerable and unwarranted burden.
It is as punitive as it is illogical to say a magazine is a freestanding licensable component. A detachable rifle magazine has no serial number or severable identity. It is an inherent and indispensable part of the firearm. Hence, the legitimate expectation that when the firearm is licensed the magazine is licensed under the same licensing fee. What’s next, the scopes, the mounts?
Your Firearm Licensing branch already cannot cope, with excessive delays and resulting damage to both firearms holder and dealers. Now, you want to make it worse. Little wonder some suspect an agenda to reduce firearms ownership.
Nowhere else in the U.K., I understand, does such a draconian tax exist. So, why here?
In terms of the innovation regarding magazines, can you advise if all magazines currently held have now to be separately licensed, or if the application is limited to new acquisitions going forward?
I look forward to a reasoned reply, as distinct from the usual platitudes.
Yours sincerely,
Jim Allister

Wadi14

I never thought I'd ever see the day that Irish men would be giving Jim Allister the thumbs up lol

An Ri rua

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ATFE has withdrawn from that particular chat group and dropped this nonsense.
Now this could be because they expect ol Sniffy to get into the oval office or the rumour that Trump is "crossing the Delaware" so to speak in January[google the reference to G Washington crossing the Delaware at this time of year ] and is going to throw a major spanner in the works.Of which there does seem to be a good possibility.The Dept of Defence and Joint chiefs of staff has stopped briefing Sniffer again. More states where the election fraud happened are demanding recalls and investigations,and if it gets enough the vice president, Mike Pence, can veto it and demand election re-runs in the affected states. This all comes down to the most incromhensible bit of legislation ever written.The US electoral act.
So still a toss-up as to who will be on the steps on Jan 2021:)

Seems this article about NI, has put the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons:P Was talking to its author, and it seems it was mass flagged as "offensive" by NI /UK gun owners...on FB and removed.:eek: Goes to show if that is the case,we are our own worst enemies still.Why not attack the source of the message and not the messenger?

While in the UK ..The "paint it pink campaign" DID work on the MARS/Lever release ...Somewhat.There were very few photo ops alright, but of course, some goody two shoes didn't paint his pink in the Devon&Cornwall division, and guess what?It ended up being predictably used in a police photo op:rolleyes: The usual blah"rapid firing fully semi-automatic, danger in the wrong hands, could end up on the streets" blah, blah,blah! nonsense.

Seems the rank and file street coppers thought this was a really good one to pull and a right "up yours" to the brass and home office. So a pyrrhic victory to the UK lads on this!

Not a great comparison. George Washington actually crossed the Delaware. He wasn't too chickensh1t to serve on a front line unlike Sh1tForBrains himself.

No doubt that all governments use crises to increase their power. A matter of staying alert and resisting efforts.

Grizzly 45

An Ri rua wrote: »

Not a great comparison. George Washington actually crossed the Delaware. He wasn't too chickensh1t to serve on a front line unlike Sh1tForBrains himself.

No doubt that all governments use crises to increase their power. A matter of staying alert and resisting efforts.

Yeah a lifegaurd and football player who dodges the draft by claiming "Asthma"is pretty low alright.

An Ri rua

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yeah a lifegaurd and football player who dodges the draft by claiming "Asthma"is pretty low alright.

I don't think they were expecting a lifeguard down at the Capitol Building. Moreso a little orange ogre. But he cried off, like all elitists do.

Grizzly 45

An Ri rua wrote: »

I don't think they were expecting a lifeguard down at the Capitol Building. Moreso a little orange ogre. But he cried off, like all elitists .
Too true,seeing the senile ex lifegaurd with asthma one stole the election.Ad for elitism...You aint seen nothing yet .

tudderone

Eliteism ? Ever hear of the clinton foundation ? They do very nicely out of it thank you very much. Anyone that upsets the clintons seems to either have a fatal accident or decides to commit suicide. That other man of the humble working class, Tony Blair, ever since he left office has developed a property portfolio that would make the queen envious. He's not short of a few bob either, shilling for huge multinationals. Even here the touchy feely lefties are not living in poverty either, i was in a union previously and i was always amazed by the shine on the union head mans new top of the range Mercedes, and his Louis Copeland suits were always immaculately pressed. The Irish Jimmy Hoffa ?:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Mike Lindsay and ORC are getting things moving along.

https://mike-lindsay.co.uk/2021/01/13/the-squeaky-wheel-gets-the-oil/?fbclid=IwAR3wVbLvlJaWar-ZxDeg3-WE9kySihhwZxsrn6ZGQA4-sVSfVobdHD1K4tE

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Mike Lindsay and ORC are getting things moving along.

https://mike-lindsay.co.uk/2021/01/13/the-squeaky-wheel-gets-the-oil/?fbclid=IwAR3wVbLvlJaWar-ZxDeg3-WE9kySihhwZxsrn6ZGQA4-sVSfVobdHD1K4tE

Good site that. Whats up with the guy who runs Lantac ?

Grizzly 45

Did you read his "Ratners jewellery" comparison post?:) Hit the menu button and there is a whole slew of articles by Mike there. but here's the link and then the follow-up stories.
Basically, the owner of Lantac decided to have a very erratic pop at the competition, and it went from there. Kind of a Ratners jewellery moment for someone in the UK gun industry.

https://mike-lindsay.co.uk/2019/06/05/a-ratners-moment-for-lantac-firearms/

.https://mike-lindsay.co.uk/2020/09/30/lantac-ceo-finding-it-hard-to-let-go/ then

https://mike-lindsay.co.uk/2020/12/20/would-the-real-mike-please-stand-up/


And I suppose if you are a UK CEO of a firearms company in the UK trying to get into the US market.Posting this kind of stuff will really endear you to your prospective multin billion market.
https://www.tactical****.com/lantac-boss-thinks-uk-gun-laws-sensible/ **** Sierra Hotel India Tango

Cass

Important update regarding this proposal. Seems common sense won out, on the back of strong opposition from the shooting community.

PSNI firearms magazine “Apply before you Buy” policy.


Following a meeting this afternoon with BASC and a number of other representative organisations, PSNI has agreed to pause any further implementation of its new policy which requires firearm certificate holders to apply in advance, and pay a £30 licensing fee, in order to acquire any new firearms magazine.
PSNI acknowledged the fact that this was a contentious issue. BASC commends PSNI Chief Superintendent Sam Donaldson, for recognising the lack of PSNI consultation, and for his genuine and sincere apology, for that failing.

The bit that would concern me, if i were affected, is the "pausing" of the proposal and not its scrapping, but one step at a time i suppose.

Grizzly 45

https://mike-lindsay.co.uk/2021/02/17/a-win-for-uk-shooting/?fbclid=IwAR3FOgMdBXAFDXIrcEg_xHOqQlGvss6YtDqvcqOo4sFKXmkHuA82a-QT8RM