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Refused/renewal refused for range attendance?

  • 15-12-2020 1:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Hi folks,
    Quick one, has anyone ever been refused a licence or renewal based on them not providing range attendance?

    I've a rifle currently licenced for target shooting up for renewal and have supplied my proof of membership and good standing and all the other paperwork but have been told that range attendance is now a requirement for renewals.

    So, have any of you folks been in a similar situation with regards to range attendance?

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    The only legislation I could find on it was the requirement to be a member of a target shooting range for target shooting, in the criminal justice act 2006, section 32-4-2(e)
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec32

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    That sounds wrong.

    Even putting everything else aside for a moment, how could anyone be attending regularly this year, with Covid - 19 restrictions etc?

    Did you check with the club to see if the Gardai made enquires, and if so, what information on your membership was released?

    I've seen people spend lots of time at a club range, but rarely fire a shot, while I've also seen others go a lot less frequently, but spend more time practicing, while they are there. So, it's not just as simple as getting your attendance card marked, if we ever were going to have to go down that route.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ SVI40


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Hi folks,
    I've a rifle currently licenced for target shooting up for renewal and have supplied my proof of membership and good standing and all the other paperwork but have been told that range attendance is now a requirement for renewals.

    Have the indicated how many times a year you "need" to attend? If so, on what are they basing these numbers on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    garrettod wrote: »
    That sounds wrong.

    Even putting everything else aside for a moment, how could anyone be attending regularly this year, with Covid - 19 restrictions etc?

    Did you check with the club to see if the Gardai made enquires, and if so, what information on your membership was released?

    Tell me about it.
    Whiffs of the temporary custody order again.

    I did enquire with my club and no inquiries have been made.
    It was noted by the FO that I hadn't supplied them with my other renewal paperwork, so the implication was for me to supply them.

    Even without covid I rather resent the potential for being dictated the minimum number of times I must attend a range/club.

    This year just serves to highlight it's impracticality ;)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    SVI40 wrote: »
    Have the indicated how many times a year you "need" to attend? If so, on what are they basing these numbers on?

    Not officially, but an informal guesstimate was 5 at minimum.
    No further info on whether there was a law change/SI or anything else that this requirement or the numbers thrown out are based upon.

    However apparently were said numbers to be below a certain amount the question would be asked "why do you need a licence for X if you only use it X times a year", and thus I can see the refusal being based on "insufficient reason" or similar.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



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  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ SVI40


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Not officially, but an informal guesstimate was 5 at minimum.
    No further info on whether there was a law change/SI or anything else that this requirement or the numbers thrown out are based upon.

    However apparently were said numbers to be below a certain amount the question would be asked "why do you need a licence for X if you only use it X times a year", and thus I can see the refusal being based on "insufficient reason" or similar.
    Ask the Garda for the legislation he is basing the number of visits you need to make. As was mentioned, you can attend the range and not fire a shot!


  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    SVI40 wrote: »
    Ask the Garda for the legislation he is basing the number of visits you need to make. As was mentioned, you can attend the range and not fire a shot!

    Oh I plan on doing so, I'm getting a list of arguments ready for either the renewal, possible interview or possible refusal currently.

    My thinking is if it has happened before, or more importantly if it has been tried and failed, then I want all the info I can get to throw back ;)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    So, have any of you folks been in a similar situation with regards to range attendance?

    Never refused, but yes have been asked repeatedly for range attendance records. So much so, and it must be common, that my range now has a facility to request such info and they e-mail it to you. A friend was almost refused, but after a meeting with the Super and supplying range records he explained that due to a family crisis involving health issues he was not free to attend as often as he wanted or used to. The Super agreed and granted the license with the caveat that if the range attendance did not increase, even slightly, in the next three years that the next renewal most likely would not happen.

    This will fall under section 3(4) of the principle act as amended which states:
    (4) The applicant shall supply in writing any further information that the Superintendent or the Commissioner may require in the performance of his or her functions under this section.
    The amount of visits will be important but there is no set number. IOW a Super may determine that 3 is enough over the course of the 3 years license or may want 5 per year for the 3 year license or some other number.

    Its only a formality and no one will hold this year against anyone. I mean i've been twice or three times in January through February and have not been able to set foot in the range since then. However i have dozens of visits in the preceding two years so if my renewal was this year i'd be covered.

    The reason for the request is simple. You applied for the license for target shooting. Suppose you never set foot on the range in the three years of the license lifetime. Why would a Super believe you want the rifle for target shooting when you're not attending the range.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    garrettod wrote: »
    I've seen people spend lots of time at a club range, but rarely fire a shot, while I've also seen others go a lot less frequently, but spend more time practicing, while they are there.
    SVI40 wrote: »
    Ask the Garda for the legislation he is basing the number of visits you need to make. As was mentioned, you can attend the range and not fire a shot!
    What you do when you get to the range is, however silly it may sound, irrelevant. So long as you attend it. IOW fulfill the conditions of your license based on the good reason you gave when applying.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Cass wrote: »
    Never refused, but yes have been asked repeatedly for range attendance records. So much so, and it must be common, that my range now has a facility to request such info and they e-mail it to you. A friend was almost refused, but after a meeting with the Super and supplying range records he explained that due to a family crisis involving health issues he was not free to attend as often as he wanted or used to. The Super agreed and granted the license with the caveat that if the range attendance did not increase, even slightly, in the next three years that the next renewal most likely would not happen.

    Interesting, this renewal has been the first time that attendance was sought, and I have been a target shooter for well over a decade now.

    I haven't heard of, and nor has anyone else I asked, anyone being refused on the basis of attendance alone, so that is heartening somewhat.

    Cass wrote: »
    The amount of visits will be important but there is no set number. IOW a Super may determine that 3 is enough over the course of the 3 years license or may want 5 per year for the 3 year license or some other number.

    Its only a formality and no one will hold this year against anyone. I mean i've been twice or three times in January through February and have not been able to set foot in the range since then. However i have dozens of visits in the preceding two years so if my renewal was this year i'd be covered.

    The reason for the request is simple. You applied for the license for target shooting. Suppose you never set foot on the range in the three years of the license lifetime. Why would a Super believe you want the rifle for target shooting when you're not attending the range.


    Interesting.
    Admittedly I fulfilled the requirement(5 visits, that has been thrown out informally), but I rather dislike the idea of being refused for such a reason should I, in the future, be unable to make up whatever number they settle upon.
    Of course number of visits being the key there, since informal 5 could be changed at any time for any reason if there is no legal number for it.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Interesting, this renewal has been the first time that attendance was sought, and I have been a target shooter for well over a decade now.
    I was first asked in October last year and three more times in the last 12 months. So while its newish to me it is now a common request. Frankly i think its stupid. Not the request, but the frequency. Like the photos, how many times can they ask for my range attendance especially when some renewal overlap. IOW i have to provide them three times in four months. Surely the attendance records i gave for the first renewal should show my attendance enough to justify the other renewals?
    I haven't heard of, and nor has anyone else I asked, anyone being refused on the basis of attendance alone, so that is heartening somewhat.
    I'm in Laois and most people i've spoken to have been asked for it.
    Interesting.
    Admittedly I fulfilled the requirement(5 visits, that has been thrown out informally), but I rather dislike the idea of being refused for such a reason should I, in the future, be unable to make up whatever number they settle upon.
    Of course number of visits being the key there, since informal 5 could be changed at any time for any reason if there is no legal number for it.
    There is no number formally or otherwise. I know some Super's will have a number in their mind and refuse or question anything under that number, but it has no legal standing. However it doesn't have to as section 3(4) is so broad sweeping that it can encompass any request.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    Coppers making it up as they go along again ? You would think they'd have learned their lesson by now wouldn't you ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,758 ✭✭✭ clivej


    Funny, I'm just reading this when I got a msg from my FO yesterday regarding a recent renewal. I'd forgotten to include an image of my current range badge to show I'm a member.
    She told me that the Chief Super wouldn't be renewing any license without proof of current club membership. I have never had to provide attendance records.
    I must add she is one of the best and we had a good chat about life as well, as you do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    SOP with me. I'm asked virtually every renewal for this.
    As said there is no mandatory numbers of times you must attend in legislation and that's left up to the Super.

    But with 2020 being the year of plauge,I doubt anyone could reasonably justify a refusal on non-attendence this year.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    SOP with me. I'm asked virtually every renewal for this.
    As said there is no mandatory numbers of times you must attend in legislation and that's left up to the Super.

    But with 2020 being the year of plauge,I doubt anyone could reasonably justify a refusal on non-attendence this year.

    Since when did that word apply to that lot ? It'll be interesting to see what happens in January, Mehole is talking level 5 lockdown again, Germany is in a jock and so is America, and the UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Well, the Super will have to justify to a judge why he thought you breaking Covid restrictions was more important to justify a range attendance?Few if any of us live within 5 klicks of our ranges and ned to travel over at least 3 counties to get to it.Be bollocked out of a courtroom and rightly so,as you cant be penalised for obeying national emergency health legislation which is over riding just about every aspect of national law and norms.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭ delboythedub


    Interesting scenario


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    The only legislation I could find on it was the requirement to be a member of a target shooting range for target shooting, in the criminal justice act 2006, section 32-4-2(e)
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec32

    Tried the same rubbish on me last week same section of the legislation to push me into getting something which isnt covered by this legislation.

    If its the same CPO they need to start reading what they are quoting.
    Never ask a member of the Gardai about the legislation, its like Chinese whispers by the time they interpret it.

    Write your Super or Chief a letter and quote all of this legislation in the letter asking them to clarify where it states this request is my best advice, thats what I did.
    Remember your data is all subject to data protection and that doesnt circumvent the laws relating to this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,659 ✭✭✭✭ Witcher


    jb88 wrote: »
    Tried the same rubbish on me last week same section of the legislation to push me into getting something which isnt covered by this legislation.

    If its the same CPO they need to start reading what they are quoting.
    Never ask a member of the Gardai about the legislation, its like Chinese whispers by the time they interpret it.

    Write your Super or Chief a letter and quote all of this legislation in the letter asking them to clarify where it states this request is my best advice, thats what I did.
    Remember your data is all subject to data protection and that doesnt circumvent the laws relating to this.

    Cass has already stated the legislative requirement to provide any written correspondence the super requires to make a licencing decision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    Witcher wrote: »
    Cass has already stated the legislative requirement to provide any written correspondence the super requires to make a licencing decision.

    You don't have to provide everything that they request. Some things, yes. Everything, no.

    I've written about this story before here.

    I was doing a renewal a few years ago when the Gardai sent back my renewal application because I didn't have letters from two farmers giving me permission to shoot on their land. I went into the station and explained that you don't need the written permissions for the renewal if the permissions haven't changed. My details hadn't changed.

    The Gardai didn't accept this and gave me a form to get the farmers to fill in. I said I wouldn't do that as it isn't required. I actually showed them Section 5.1 on the renewal form that says "(you only need provide this written permission if your details have changed since your last application)."

    They still wouldn't take my application because they were told to start using this form by their boss who I am assuming was the Super or Chief Super. I doubt it was the local Sergent taking it on his own back.

    Long story short, I went away and came back a week later, they still wouldn't take my application. Then a week after that there was a new Garda on duty and he took my application and I got the renewal in the post a few weeks after that so it all ended well.

    By the way, the above story isn't a dig at my local Gardai. I'm sure they were only doing what they were told.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,659 ✭✭✭✭ Witcher


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    You don't have to provide everything that they request. Some things, yes. Everything, no.
    That depends on how you interpret any further information.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    Witcher wrote: »
    That depends on how you interpret any further information.

    No interpretation needed in the example I gave above. Just simple reading skills. I actually showed them what was written on the renewal form.

    They were asking for something that I wasn't leagally required to provide, so I didn't provide it.

    Hey, I'll obey whatever laws are there, for sure. I'll even play it safe when there's doubt about something being legal or not, but I didn't see why I should supply specific information when the renewal form actually says that that particular bit of information isn't required.


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