The Ivermectin discussion

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720027#Comment_117720027

Campbell, also not a scientist and not even a medical doctor, is another one singing from the Ivermectin songsheet. It's unproven so we wait for a credible clinical trial. 16 months into this I still don't get why some posters imagine YouTube is evidence of anything!

ligind

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720027#Comment_117720027

The guardian article previously referenced on this thread raises huge questions about one of the bigger trials included in the meta analysis he mentions.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720133#Comment_117720133

Well, self-medicating with Ivermectin can kill you but that's not really a side effect I guess.

Imagine if we'd used meta analysis for vaccines?! It certainly wouldn't be a safe approach. Meta analysis will not get you approval and so far there have been no proper clinical trials to prove the benefit of either. Why do people have such a problem with the right approach to this?

Until there are results from such trials people can continue to blame the FDA, EMA, the WHO and Merck for failing to see to see what others clearly know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720684#Comment_117720684

So can covid kill you.

Thats why people take midicines/vaccines.

Risk/benefit decisions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721224#Comment_117721224

Vaccines have been proven far more effective at preventing serious illness and death than any inconclusive ivermectin trial or questionable meta analysis.

And the pushing of ivermectin is being used as a wedge issue to discourage a certain portion of the population from getting vaccinated. Even if ivermectin is proven to be a beneficial medication, those that don’t take the vaccine will face far worse outcomes on average than those that do, ivermectin or no ivermectin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721764#Comment_117721764

I agree vaccines are a no brainer.

I'm fully vaccinated and will within reason take booster doses etc in due course.

Bottom line we also need an early treatment protocol.

Vaccines cannot be seen in a vacumn.

People sitting at home for a week after being diagnosed hoping their immune system copes with covid on its own.

I actually think ivermectin may never be used in ireland or western europe.

Its not something we use alot of compared to say India.

I do think however fluvoxamine will be used in ireland for early treatment at home.

Its widely used in ireland already.

Its safe, effective and readily available.

For high risk people who are diagnosed for covid the first time its a useful tool to have in your toolbag.

HIQA study below thought fluvoxamine and monocal antibodies were most promising treatments likely to be used in ireland.

Given that with monocal antibodies you have to go into hospital after being diagnosed and sit around for 3 hours for treatment how likely is that with hse resources already stretched?

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-02/Interventions-to-prevent-progression_Advice.pdf

L1011

That meta-analysis is being withdrawn

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/08/10/ivermectin-meta-analysis-to-be-retracted-revised-say-authors/#more-122837

This is the thing that people pushing a potentially toxic (liver issues) horse-dewormer as a 'cure' rely on as 'proof'.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736972#Comment_117736972

The horse has bolted though. This will continue to circulate as 'proof' for a long time.

The Cochrane review (always regarded as the gold standard of meta-analyses) says no evidence (yet) of effiacacy

Ivermectin for preventing and treating COVID-19 | Cochrane

It doesn't matter though. It's not really about ivermectin, or fluvoxamine, or hydroxychloroquine (remember that?). It's about the utter conviction that some people have that big pharma is colluding with government to keep a magical, cheap, safe and effective cure from the people in order to pump up profits and keep the people in line.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737146#Comment_117737146

or Zinc or Vitamin C (I think that's back to the oldest of the claimed 'easy cures')

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737146#Comment_117737146

fluvoxamine.

Proof it is not effective?

Proof it is dangaerous?

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjn7Z6z_KjyAhXXi1wKHYzrDcMQFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hiqa.ie%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2F2021-02%2FInterventions-to-prevent-progression_Advice.pdf&usg=AOvVaw03GQ9lJUlE46loQI-CckHl

HIQA in Januray 2021 thought fluvoxamine and monoclonal antibodies were the most promising treatment for at home patients in irish setting.

Given the time and resources needed for the later, if phase 3 trials go as well as earlier trials fluvoxamine is a good early treatment.

I get it that treatments have to to be SAFE, but the fact that fluvoxamine has made it to phase 3 is very promising. Add to that what HIQA said in relation to it for ireland its looking very good. Remember all our vaccines were barely at phase 3 a year ago and are now an eight month old treatment/prevention.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737626#Comment_117737626

Generally in medicine, the onus is to prove that a drug is effective. There is no such proof for Covid (yet).

However, there are reams and reams of proof that fluvoxamine is NOT a safe drug. It is an SSRI antidepressant, from the same class as Prozac, Seroxat and Lustral, and is heavily linked with increasing risk of suicidal thoughts, as well as a multitude of other negative effects.

Throwing it at people with Covid without any evidence of efficacy is incredibly dangerous.

Your HIQA link says that there is "‘Low certainty evidence in support of potential effectiveness" - hardly an endorsement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737680#Comment_117737680

An effective anti depressant that causes suicidal thoughts?

Do you read what you actually write before posting.

You think an anti depressant that has been used for 40 years causes suicides now?

Must be a slow week for you.

Strange how it is in phase 3 trials despite your esteemed misgivings.

All treatments have to make it successfully through phase 3 trials.

Thats we have 3 to begin with.

This will only be given to people deemed at risk.

Benefit/risk equation like all treatments/vaccines.

AZ vaccine has killed around 100 people in UK, but saved many 1000's.

Plenty in USA are getting this as soon as covid positive.

Life is not a dress rehearsal.

I actually dont think its a stupid thing to take these tablets for 2 weeks to increase your chances of getting through covid successfully.

There is millions of people taking these tablets for a few years in the past 40 years years.

Its hardly a life and death situation to take these tablets for two weeks and it might save your life if you are deemed at risk.

Plenty of upside risks with few downsides.

How many people in ireland have died of this drug?

How many people in ireland have died or been hospitalised with this virus?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737795#Comment_117737795

Ummm, yeah?

I don't think it causes suicides "now" - the effect of these drugs in increasing suicidal thoughts has been a known issue for many, many years, particularly for younger patients. There was a pretty big scandal about it a few years ago (mainly related to a very similar drug, paroxetine).

Plenty of other side effects too. I would be very slow to class this as a 'safe' drug.

Edit; You added a whole heap of stuff to your post. Fair enough, but you're totally missing the point. I'm DELIGHTED to see phase 3 studies going on for drugs to treat Covid. That's the whole point - we need evidence in properly controlled trials. Until they're completed, we just don't know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737943#Comment_117737943

People taking it for 40 years, compared to covid vaccines.

Everything you put into your body has "plenty of side effects".

Some high risk person is told it is likely to stop you being hospitalised with covid.

I'd say their mental health might be a little worse if they ended up in hospital.

I'm not trying to convince you that its good, but you are convincing me its bad.

Despite the fact:

*Safe Drug used clinically for 40 years.

*Currently in phase 3 trials.

*Most promising drug in HIQA report in 2021 after more than a year of covid.

*Earlier trials and case studies were fantastic (0 hospitalisations).

*Many americans taking it when covid positive.

No drug or vaccine is ever going to be 100% benefit/0% risks.

Its all about the risk to the individual and the deemed benefits and risks that accrue from said treatment.

If this drug avoided you being hospitalised with covid would that be worth the risks of taking this medication in low doses for two weeks?

I knew a friend in college who took antidepressants for a few months as part of a trial.

He had no mental illness as that would have made him ineligible.

He received a few thousand £'s.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738021#Comment_117738021

Back it up there.

You asked for "proof it is dangerous". I gave you said proof. You accused me of not knowing what I was talking about. I explained it in better detail. You didn't have the class to say "wow, I never knew that".

Go into your local pharmacy and ask him how many prescriptions for faverin he gives out in an average month. If it's more than one, I'll be surprised. This is not a high volume drug that millions of people are taking.

And yet, you think there is MORE evidence for fluvoxamine than the literally hundreds of millions of people who've got vaccines.

But that's all grand, if the trials generate data to show it works, I'll be delighted.

However, your repeated reference to HIQA is a red herring. They literally just reported the fact that a study had been done, they do not offer any opinion themselves.

I did enjoy your "many Americans taking it" line as though this is proof of anything. Many Americans were taking chloroquine, many Americans were swallowing bleach.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738132#Comment_117738132

How many people have died of this antidepressant to date over a 40 year period?

Covid kills over 10,000 people a day around the world?

Can you answer the question other than talking about some mentally ill people taking antidepressants that have had "suicidal thoughts" and "plenty of side effects".

HIQA did offer opinions. They said monoconal antibodies and fluvoxamine looked the most promising treatment in an irish setting to date after a year of covid. Further trials were needed for both as they were in early trials (phase 1/2). Nothing negative about HIQA report. Exactly what you would expect from a regulatory body at this stage. Tony Holihan in November/early December said we have no vaccines yet despite fantastic phase 3 trial results. By their nature these people dont use colourful language or get overly excited at really fantastic news. HIQAs language to fluvoxamine was similar to the way Tony would have spoken about vaccines in 2020. Promising, but dont get ahead of ourselves. Thats his job to be very conservative, not mine or the publics.

In relation to americans at risk taking it in the past.

Their rationale is:

Regulators that are conservative by nature advising to sit at home and do nothing if covid positive and await phase 3 trial results later in year despite thousands dying a day. Time is not on their side when already covid positive and they take a calculated risk.

Earlier trials resulted in 0 hospitalisations.

Whats the likely benefit of taking drug: Not hospitalised in already overwhelmed hospitals.

Whats the likely downside: Hassle of getting drug in time. Stigma of taking antidepressant for a few weeks that has not been formerly endorsed by regulators as official covid treatment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736972#Comment_117736972

This isn’t new. One of the studies that was included in the meta-analysis was retracted, invalidating the meta-analysis. It doesn’t invalidate the other studies that were included in the meta-analysis.

Your description of ivermectin does give off a whiff of very-online partisan learning, but the truth is that there’s no conclusion yet either way. The evidence is mixed but in some ways points to ivermectin being a potentially positive therapeutic, and since it’s a drug with a stellar safety record through billions of doses over forty years of it being used to treat humans, less hepatotoxic than paracetamol, and listed on the WHO’s list of essential medicines, I really hope that it will be proven effective.

Further studies will shed more light, but since vaccines seem to offer limited and short-term protection, far more attention needs to be given to the search for effective therapeutics and all potential candidates should be researched. The cost is a drop in the ocean by comparison to the cost of repeated “fire break” lockdowns and the like.

It would be nice if people would stop attaching their political id to every potential candidate that arises and either declaring it the miracle cure or conspiracy theory because Alex Jones or The Young Turks told them what to think.

Science is a process, evolutionary by its very nature; not a word to furiously type out between fevered brow wipes because you saw something on the internet that an article written by an intern told you was badthink.

https://nationalpost.com/health/inexpensive-anti-depressant-could-be-best-covid-treatment-yet-canadian-led-trial-finds

Another trial on fluvoxamine.

This is seriously low hanging fruit...

https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/sanotize-nasal-spray-reduces-covid-19-viral-load-uk-clinical-trail/

I think this product has merit.

On sale in Israel and looks soon to be in India.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745021#Comment_117745021

800 in a trial is is not enough. From the article

If confirmed by more research

WHO or others doing big trials for repurposing drugs might need to be the next stop.

odyssey06

About these proposed treatments - fluvoxamine, ivermectin.

If it is found that they help against covid, could they help against other viruses such as flu, pneumonia, or ebola?

Or is there something unique about how covid hits, say triggering a cytokine storm, that they are helping with?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747443#Comment_117747443

WHO?

It took them 6 months to say facemasks might cut infection risk.

At best WHO are an advocate for highlighting inequalities in world.

Totally useless for developed countries.

I honestly stopped listening to them over a year ago.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750272#Comment_117750272

These would be classed as the equivalent as stage 1/2 vaccine trials. You're introducing a medicine into a patient and see what happens.

You can't just pick a drug and give it to every covid patient worldwide and see what happens. Was there not issues with just pumping patients with steroids and/or ventilating them, which caused more harm than good?

Granted a lot more is known about Covid now, but you can't turn patients into guinea pigs cause you think they are going too slow.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750419#Comment_117750419

Im talking about the WHO.

In what area of this pandemic have you thought they have done a good job?

I wouldnt trust them to collect my rubbish.

With regards to fluvoxamine, thats three studies now showing a positive result in a drug with a 40 year history.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750468#Comment_117750468

Declaring the Pandemic (very hard call to make)

Other than that.... it's hard to see them fit for purpose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750511#Comment_117750511

I will give them that.

I suppose you get what you pay for.

Countries spend far more on military than on health research/development.

Pat Kenny interviews Dr. Pierre Kory on Ivermectin as Covid-19 Therapeutic.

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/an-icu-specialist-says-ivermectin-is-the-drug-that-can-end-the-pandemic

Interesting discussion from The Pat Kenny Show yesterday.

Piollaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117752718#Comment_117752718

I've been a supporter of Ivermectin to date but it is not as effective against the Delta variant. The much increased viral load with Delta has resulted in the FLCCC recommending higher and more frequent doses.

Piollaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745337#Comment_117745337

Looks good.

FLCCC is recommending nasal rinse with Povidone-Iodine. It is available under the brand name of Videne here but seems to be sold out in Ireland. I just ordered a bottle on ebay and I had to proverbially pay through the nose.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117753273#Comment_117753273

It's nothing to do with the Delta variant. It just doesn't work.

The most recent study debunking the ivermectin nonsense (the Together Trial) was conducted in Brazil long before Delta was an issue there, and it found absolutely zero evidence of any effect.

It's bollocks, bollocks, bollocks, it is a conspiracy theory.