Trump v Biden 2020,The insurrection (pt 6) Read OP

JeffKenna

threeball wrote: »

Trump is going to do 100 today alone. I think comparing him to anyone else is pointless at this stage.

If he's impeached I presume the pardons won't stand?

threeball

JeffKenna wrote: »

I don't know about the Russian mob to be honest but looking at the pictures of times Square from the 80's and early 90's it's a completely different city.

Alot of that had to do with the money that was pumped into property in Manhattan in the 80s. The Island was no longer a melting pot, that was all pushed to the suburbs and the Yuppies took over the Manhattan. The italian and then Russian mobs controlled most of the construction but it was all fairly hidden. They controlled the unions and any contracts over a certain value. Reagan gave massive tax breaks for property development and the mobs and those like Trump who got in bed with them were the main beneficiaries.

Penn

JeffKenna wrote: »

If he's impeached I presume the pardons won't stand?

They'll stand unless they're linked to what he's being impeached for (eg. The Capitol riots). In which case they're likely to be challenged.

threeball

JeffKenna wrote: »

If he's impeached I presume the pardons won't stand?

He has been advised it could be construed as an admission of guilt. Knowing Trump he'll probably want to word it himself and won't listen to legal advice. Probably try to include future crimes too.

threeball

Penn wrote: »

They'll stand unless they're linked to what he's being impeached for (eg. The Capitol riots). In which case they're likely to be challenged.

Pardoning yourself for crimes you haven't be accused or convicted off is very murky. Theres no guarantee they'll stand as you would need to make the pardon completely open ended.

seamus

JeffKenna wrote: »

If he's impeached I presume the pardons won't stand?

The pardon power is absolute. Impeachment/conviction makes no odds - unless he's trying to pardon an impeachment, which is not permitted.

Yes, it is just as ridiculous and open to corruption as it sounds.

There is plenty of scope to challenge the extent of this power and have the USSC formally define the limits, but it's generally been left alone because Presidents in the past haven't been brazen about who and how they pardon. Even Nixon can be described as classy and honourable when compared to Trump.

If Trump pardons close associates and it's discovered that "donations" have been made to secure pardons, then I expect there will a lot of discussion about this over the next 4 years.

seamus

threeball wrote: »

He has been advised it could be construed as an admission of guilt. Knowing Trump he'll probably want to word it himself and won't listen to legal advice. Probably try to include future crimes too.

It'll be construed as an admission of guilt both for him and for his children if he pardons them too.

But I expect he might consider civil cases that he can defend (or hide his money from) to be preferable to federal charges that he can't.

threeball

seamus wrote: »

It'll be construed as an admission of guilt both for him and for his children if he pardons them too.

But I expect he might consider civil cases that he can defend (or hide his money from) to be preferable to federal charges that he can't.

It will only protect him from Federal charges (in theory)which is the other point. He can still be charged by states and theres quite a few willing to do so

joe40

seamus wrote: »

The pardon power is absolute. Impeachment/conviction makes no odds - unless he's trying to pardon an impeachment, which is not permitted.

Yes, it is just as ridiculous and open to corruption as it sounds.

There is plenty of scope to challenge the extent of this power and have the USSC formally define the limits, but it's generally been left alone because Presidents in the past haven't been brazen about who and how they pardon. Even Nixon can be described as classy and honourable when compared to Trump.

If Trump pardons close associates and it's discovered that "donations" have been made to secure pardons, then I expect there will a lot of discussion about this over the next 4 years.

The fact that Trump has pardoned military contractors convicted of murdering civilians in Iraq is particularly galling.

Have any past presidents pardoned anyone with such abhorrent crimes? Maybe I just don't know.

The whole presidential pardon is frankly ridiculous. Far too much power in one individual.

RunningFlyer

extra gravy wrote: »

And the schedule for his final day is...

"President Trump will work from early in the morning until late in the evening. He will make many calls and have many meetings"

Jesus. I've seen this a few times on the thread and always thought it was a running joke.. never actually realised it was official until now that I checked! :eek::pac:

jill_valentine

Pardon power is absolute, but pardons would to be carefully worded to be beyond legal reproach. If you're not careful, you could pardon Capone for bootlegging, while leaving him open to prosecution for the unpaid taxes on the proceeds.

It would usually be fairly boilerplate stuff, but given the crack legal minds we're talking about here....

Gregor Samsa

joe40 wrote: »

Have any past presidents pardoned anyone with such abhorrent crimes? Maybe I just don't know.
.

Nixon intervened in the imprisonment of Lt. William Calley, who was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of 22 civilians in his participation in the infamous My Lai massacre in Vietnam. Just after his conviction and sentencing, Nixon ordered that he be removed from prison and put under house arrest instead. Various appeals then reduced the sentence and altered the conviction. But he wasn't actually pardoned. There doesn't seem to be any precedent for an actual Presidential pardon for such crimes.

duploelabs

joe40 wrote: »

The fact that Trump has pardoned military contractors convicted of murdering civilians in Iraq is particularly galling.

Have any past presidents pardoned anyone with such abhorrent crimes? Maybe I just don't know.

The whole presidential pardon is frankly ridiculous. Far too much power in one individual.

Whataboutism from email server in 5...4...3...2..

Gregor Samsa

joe40 wrote: »

The whole presidential pardon is frankly ridiculous. Far too much power in one individual.

Agreed. I find it very strange that the Founding Fathers - so concerned with preventing a King or autocrat from ever taking over the then newly-formed US - put so much power into the President's hands in this regard without any provision for oversight. There's little can be done about it either, as Constitutional change in the US is a pretty onerous task - all but impossible without significant bi-partisan support.

Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution:

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

ohnonotgmail

threeball wrote: »

He has been advised it could be construed as an admission of guilt. Knowing Trump he'll probably want to word it himself and won't listen to legal advice. Probably try to include future crimes too.

he may try but he cannot do that.

Baggly

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