Ag Climatise Document

Grueller

Whether we like it or not we are going to have to work with this document.

Some points
Grass measuring compulsory on farms stocked over 130kg/N
90% of slurry spread by LESS by 2027
Chemical Nitrogen usage reduced from 400,000 tonnes to a max of 325,000 by 2027
All new external slurry stores to be covered from February 2022 and all existing ones to be covered by 2027
A move away from dairy stock bulls to improve EBI of the national herd
Genomic testing of the beef herd to improve efficiency
Explore ways to work dairy and beef more closely, particularly a focus on calf to beef systems.

What do we all think? My own opinion is that this is the push for derogation to drop to 130. The suckler will once again face pressure.

Personally with this allied to the proposed stocking limits on the grazing platform it means I will have to buy a zero grazer or build another parlour on an out farm. These are the beginnings of the new milk quotas.

richie123

Also..roadways have to be reshaped or redirected
All rivers drains and streams to be fenced off.
Any farmer above 170 kg but not in deroogation has to spread with less by April 21 or do I have that wrong ?

Mooooo

Grueller wrote: »

Whether we like it or not we are going to have to work with this document.

Some points
Grass measuring compulsory on farms stocked over 130kg/N
90% of slurry spread by LESS by 2027
Chemical Nitrogen usage reduced from 400,000 tonnes to a max of 325,000 by 2027
All new external slurry stores to be covered from February 2022 and all existing ones to be covered by 2027
A move away from dairy stock bulls to improve EBI of the national herd
Genomic testing of the beef herd to improve efficiency
Explore ways to work dairy and beef more closely, particularly a focus on calf to beef systems.

What do we all think? My own opinion is that this is the push for derogation to drop to 130. The suckler will once again face pressure.

Personally with this allied to the proposed stocking limits on the grazing platform it means I will have to buy a zero grazer or build another parlour on an out farm. These are the beginnings of the new milk quotas.

Maximum sr on milking platform may be a harder one for them to bring in so I would wait on that one.
It's a case I think anyway, that derogation rules in terms of nutrient plans, LESS etc will be put on all farms eventually regardless of sr.
Genomic testing is coming for all stock, not just beef and prob more things that will add the bit of cost to everything in terms of records and people looking at them.
There will be changes but st least if we know what's coming at least we can try and prepare appropriately.
I think as farmers more needs to be put out there as regard the costs we have be it land, labour, facilities etc and a realisation from the industry that if more cost is heaped on us something will break.

yosemitesam1

Think that it would be better if they went harder on artificial n and left out some of the other red tape that won't really actually achieve a whole lot only make things more difficult for everyone.
There is a lot of scope to run a high sr with minimal artificial n but that option will be taken away if they continue down this road

Farm365

Is this the end for small family farms?

older by the day

Farm365 wrote: »

Is this the end for small family farms?

Don't get your knickers in a twist. We all know some guys keeping away too many cows per acre. Maybe a more sustainable approach might be no harm. Racing and running and getting no where. The details will have to be studied

_Brian

Farm365 wrote: »

Is this the end for small family farms?

I’m sure the focus will start at the highest density stocked farms and work downwards.

Birdnuts

Farm365 wrote: »

Is this the end for small family farms?

Better appreciation, handling and storing of slurry would tic many of these boxes

bogman_bass

Farm365 wrote: »

Is this the end for small family farms?

Don’t see why. The lads that I can think of that will be most affected are big guys

Say my name

bogman_bass wrote: »

Don’t see why. The lads that I can think of that will be most affected are big guys

If a 50 acre full time dairy farmer has to reduce their stocking rate it's the end of that fulltime farmer.
Most likely the end of them being a dairy farmer.

If a 100 acre fulltime farmer has to reduce stocking rate they may still be fulltime.

If a 200 acre fulltime farmer has to reduce stocking rate they will still be fulltime.

Say my name

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Think that it would be better if they went harder on artificial n and left out some of the other red tape that won't really actually achieve a whole lot only make things more difficult for everyone.
There is a lot of scope to run a high sr with minimal artificial n but that option will be taken away if they continue down this road

I had dept inspectors on farm this year brought out by someone from these farmer led groups just to get an idea what I was at.
They wanted to see how they could keep production up while cutting N use.

Hopefully they target the N and allow the farmer to farm.

Banana Republic 1

Better to do these things now then face culls like in Holland

mahoney_j

Grueller wrote: »

Whether we like it or not we are going to have to work with this document.

Some points
Grass measuring compulsory on farms stocked over 130kg/N
90% of slurry spread by LESS by 2027
Chemical Nitrogen usage reduced from 400,000 tonnes to a max of 325,000 by 2027
All new external slurry stores to be covered from February 2022 and all existing ones to be covered by 2027
A move away from dairy stock bulls to improve EBI of the national herd
Genomic testing of the beef herd to improve efficiency
Explore ways to work dairy and beef more closely, particularly a focus on calf to beef systems.

What do we all think? My own opinion is that this is the push for derogation to drop to 130. The suckler will once again face pressure.

Personally with this allied to the proposed stocking limits on the grazing platform it means I will have to buy a zero grazer or build another parlour on an out farm. These are the beginnings of the new milk quotas.

Little to no issue with most of above we have to protect the environment and us as farmers have to adapt and embrace
Grass measuring as they want us doing 20 grass walks and using pasture base what’s that going to achieve overall lots of excellent grassland managers out there walk paddocks and react to what’s in front of them without having to go thru all that
Ebi love to see where the proff that’s making any difference is comming from so many proof runs and swings in bull profs u can’t breed with any sort of confidence using it

Introduction of caps on a platform stocking rate has to be rejected at all costs

kevthegaff

First nitrogen use should be later, too much of it waisted. That would increase allowance for rest of the year.
Adequate slurry storage is a big one for water quality, more storage means less waste of valuable nutrients
Adequate facilities for stock, numbers of calf pens cubicles, etc
They'd be the ones I reckon should be pushed and possibly Grant's for renewables

Timmaay

mahoney_j wrote: »

Little to no issue with most of above we have to protect the environment and us as farmers have to adapt and embrace
Grass measuring as they want us doing 20 grass walks and using pasture base what’s that going to achieve overall lots of excellent grassland managers out there walk paddocks and react to what’s in front of them without having to go thru all that
Ebi love to see where the proff that’s making any difference is comming from so many proof runs and swings in bull profs u can’t breed with any sort of confidence using it

Introduction of caps on a platform stocking rate has to be rejected at all costs

Grass measures next year will be done the evening of the last day of the month and will involve pulling numbers out of your arse and lobbing them into pasturebase lol.

mahoney_j

Timmaay wrote: »

Grass measures next year will be done the evening of the last day of the month and will involve pulling numbers out of your arse and lobbing them into pasturebase lol.

Won’t disagree on that for me a better angle to go at would be soil health and as Kev said better and more approiate use of chemical and artificial n the advice of getting the half bag urea out from 12 jan has to change amongst others .Andre van barnaveld approach to early and late Fertliser and grassland management makes so much sense but his ideas where never truly taken on board by tegasc etc he’s gone now and with the current age of protect the environment etc were in his views will be missed

GrasstoMilk

Timmaay wrote: »

Grass measures next year will be done the evening of the last day of the month and will involve pulling numbers out of your arse and lobbing them into pasturebase lol.

Moorepark are developing a satellite grass measuring system
Its a few years off but its on the way

Mooooo

mahoney_j wrote: »

Little to no issue with most of above we have to protect the environment and us as farmers have to adapt and embrace
Grass measuring as they want us doing 20 grass walks and using pasture base what’s that going to achieve overall lots of excellent grassland managers out there walk paddocks and react to what’s in front of them without having to go thru all that
Ebi love to see where the proff that’s making any difference is comming from so many proof runs and swings in bull profs u can’t breed with any sort of confidence using it

Introduction of caps on a platform stocking rate has to be rejected at all costs

Whatever we do will have to be record able and provable, saying we are doing it wont be enough when it comes justifying it in Europe etc. Hence recording grass etc will be required. Obviously ebi has issues but again it's about proving where we are going, hence the milk recording figures will be important as well to tie in with it. If they ever get the bf fcuking right...

mahoney_j

Mooooo wrote: »

Whatever we do will have to be record able and provable, saying we are doing it wont be enough when it comes justifying it in Europe etc. Hence recording grass etc will be required. Obviously ebi has issues but again it's about proving where we are going, hence the milk recording figures will be important as well to tie in with it. If they ever get the bf fcuking right...

Just don’t get what grass measuring will do ....fair enough get a grasp of what different covers are and walk thru paddocks regularly the key thing is reacting to what’s in front of you and taking action not just putting a few figures together putting them in pb just to tick a box
The ebi of a cow ,just don’t see how a 200 ebi cow is better than a 100!ebi cow for this either

Less cows ,more milk more kgms id say there isn’t a herd in the country that couldn’t cull 10% of there cows for a variety of reasons imagine the difference this would make ......not even on the cards on anything I’ve seen

yosemitesam1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just don’t get what grass measuring will do ....fair enough get a grasp of what different covers are and walk thru paddocks regularly the key thing is reacting to what’s in front of you and taking action not just putting a few figures together putting them in pb just to tick a box
The ebi of a cow ,just don’t see how a 200 ebi cow is better than a 100!ebi cow for this either

Less cows ,more milk more kgms id say there isn’t a herd in the country that couldn’t cull 10% of there cows for a variety of reasons imagine the difference this would make ......not even on the cards on anything I’ve seen

A lot of extra personal data and jobs for the boys in ICBF/teagasc out of it

Say my name

The trouble with looking for more milk from cows the whole time. Is if the dept have the records of more milk being produced by the Irish dairy cow is that they'll increase the amount of nitrates that the Irish dairy cow produces. Which in turn leads to less feed allowed and fert allowed be bought in. It'll be caught like driving your artic down a motorway at present to being hemmed in by overgrown ditches down a narrow boreen.

This is way they are being steered at the moment..steered by teagasc I guess who I guess told them there's no other way.
Which makes the calls for a point blank reduction in N use by the dept with no mention of stocking rate reduction, a breath of fresh air. It's giving farmers the chance to be inventive to make their own N on farm and still meet climate targets and still hopefully provide an income and tax to the exchequer.

Mooooo

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just don’t get what grass measuring will do ....fair enough get a grasp of what different covers are and walk thru paddocks regularly the key thing is reacting to what’s in front of you and taking action not just putting a few figures together putting them in pb just to tick a box
The ebi of a cow ,just don’t see how a 200 ebi cow is better than a 100!ebi cow for this either

Less cows ,more milk more kgms id say there isn’t a herd in the country that couldn’t cull 10% of there cows for a variety of reasons imagine the difference this would make ......not even on the cards on anything I’ve seen

Your looking at the grass measuring from the farmer point of view which is correct, but it'll need to be proved in terms of production vs inputs and carbon efficiency etc so that's why they are looking for it.
Agree there will be a lot of extra cost in terms of jobs elsewhere that we will prob have to pay for and also the use of farmers data needs much more protection on the farmer side.

cosatron

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

A lot of extra personal data and jobs for the boys in ICBF/teagasc out of it

the most critical instrument on your farm in 2 or 3 year will be your phone. If your not tech savvy your are f**ked or you will make a wealthy man of your agri advisor

yosemitesam1

cosatron wrote: »

the most critical instrument on your farm in 2 or 3 year will be your phone. If your not tech savvy your are f**ked or you will make a wealthy man of your agri advisor

I don't like the way things are going. Whatever happened to the farmers footsteps being the best fertiliser and the eye of the master fattens his cattle.
Many if not all of these "smart" technologies can't allow for real world conditions and won't be good for us in the long run.
Could there come a day where you get docked money for not using genomic bulls of x ebi or greater? Who knows how far things will get pushed over the coming years

cosatron

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I don't like the way things are going. Whatever happened to the farmers footsteps being the best fertiliser and the eye of the master fattens his cattle.
Many if not all of these "smart" technologies can't allow for real world conditions and won't be good for us in the long run.
Could there come a day where you get docked money for not using genomic bulls of x ebi or greater? Who knows how far things will get pushed over the coming years

agreed, i don't like the way its going either. the abolishing of the quota's was the best and worst thing to happen to the milk industry.

Banana Republic 1

Speaking as an Agri engineer it’s high time fellas embraced technology onto their farms and catch up with the rest of the western world. It will cost money but it’ll save more.

Say my name

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I don't like the way things are going. Whatever happened to the farmers footsteps being the best fertiliser and the eye of the master fattens his cattle.
Many if not all of these "smart" technologies can't allow for real world conditions and won't be good for us in the long run.
Could there come a day where you get docked money for not using genomic bulls of x ebi or greater? Who knows how far things will get pushed over the coming years

May switch back to Kerries and claim special soil biodiversity status.

Mooooo

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Speaking as an Agri engineer it’s high time fellas embraced technology onto their farms and catch up with the rest of the western world. It will cost money but it’ll save more.

I'm afraid the same as I ask most people in an area suggesting or selling something, give proven examples of how whatever it is will save more, assuming we are not doing it already off course

jaymla627

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I don't like the way things are going. Whatever happened to the farmers footsteps being the best fertiliser and the eye of the master fattens his cattle.
Many if not all of these "smart" technologies can't allow for real world conditions and won't be good for us in the long run.
Could there come a day where you get docked money for not using genomic bulls of x ebi or greater? Who knows how far things will get pushed over the coming years

The flaws that exist in the ebi program and the sheer amount of dud bulls it allows into ai means it cant and wont have any standing to penalise farmers as actually blindly following it will destroy the breeding value of your stock and in a world where nitrates stocking rates will only ever be decreasing the onus on breeding high merit cows that will deliver 650kgs plus easily and more basically makes the current ebi system not fit for purpose in the future, for the majority of Irish dairy farmers that wont have access to enough land to carry a 450 ms cows in a strict grass based system

bogman_bass

Say my name wrote: »

If a 50 acre full time dairy farmer has to reduce their stocking rate it's the end of that fulltime farmer.
Most likely the end of them being a dairy farmer.

If a 100 acre fulltime farmer has to reduce stocking rate they may still be fulltime.

If a 200 acre fulltime farmer has to reduce stocking rate they will still be fulltime.

The 50acer dairy farmer is a dying breed with or without these changes.

However the small guy doesn’t tend to have unroofed cubicles and slurry lagoons that need covering.

Say my name

bogman_bass wrote: »

The 50acer dairy farmer is a dying breed with or without these changes.

However the small guy doesn’t tend to have unroofed cubicles and slurry lagoons that need covering.

True but there shouldn't be a final kick given with strangulation through regulation via stocking rates. Especially as you say it's the big guys that need following after.

These rules are wrapped up by sections claiming it's progress against the multi million intensive farmers when it's the small (to take a saying) rooters that take the biggest brunt.

Banana Republic 1

Mooooo wrote: »

I'm afraid the same as I ask most people in an area suggesting or selling something, give proven examples of how whatever it is will save more, assuming we are not doing it already off course

I’m not sure are you agreeing with me or saying that the people you’ve heard similar from are snake oil men .

alps

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Speaking as an Agri engineer it’s high time fellas embraced technology onto their farms and catch up with the rest of the western world. It will cost money but it’ll save more.

You're half right anyway...

richie123

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Moorepark are developing a satellite grass measuring system
Its a few years off but its on the way

That's already up and running in New Zealand ...space I think it's called.

alps

richie123 wrote: »

That's already up and running in New Zealand ...space I think it's called.

Are we going to be looking a t a box to tick on the BP form that allowes the department to measure the grass for you, and give you an input allowance based on this.?

alps

alps wrote: »

You're half right anyway...

Yeah, but just on the final sentence.

Banana Republic 1

alps wrote: »

You're half right anyway...

Which Half?

Banana Republic 1

richie123 wrote: »

That's already up and running in New Zealand ...space I think it's called.

Like I said earlier

Speaking as an Agri engineer it’s high time fellas embraced technology onto their farms and catch up with the rest of the western world. It will cost money but it’ll save more.

__________________

tanko

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Which Half?

The "it will cost money" half i'd say.

endainoz

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Speaking as an Agri engineer it’s high time fellas embraced technology onto their farms and catch up with the rest of the western world. It will cost money but it’ll save more.

If you look through these forums you'll see that many posters here have indeed embraced technology as you so graciously put it. There are plenty of innovative farmers out there.

I'm all for new technology and advancement to make things easier for farmers, but "speaking as a farmer" looking down your nose at the rest of us making out were a third world country won't do you any favours here lad.....

Timmaay

endainoz wrote: »

If you look through these forums you'll see that many posters here have indeed embraced technology as you so graciously put it. There are plenty of innovative farmers out there.

I'm all for new technology and advancement to make things easier for farmers, but "speaking as a farmer" looking down your nose at the rest of us making out were a third world country won't do you any favours here lad.....

As an engineer my self, who openly embraces technology if it can help me, I have to say I've got alot more bang for buck by sticking to KISS and simplifying everything here (biggest one was going from ayr calving HOs to compact spring calving). I remember in the early days, when we had very poor fertility rates, I tried to convince my dad that we should buy a full heatime system, he thankfully said no lol, nowadays I do 3weeks of AI and use like 30e worth of tailpaint every year.

emaherx

Timmaay wrote: »

As an engineer my self, who openly embraces technology if it can help me, I have to say I've got alot more bang for buck by sticking to KISS and simplifying everything here (biggest one was going from ayr calving HOs to compact spring calving). I remember in the early days, when we had very poor fertility rates, I tried to convince my dad that we should buy a full heatime system, he thankfully said no lol, nowadays I do 3weeks of AI and use like 30e worth of tailpaint every year.

Sometimes I think more of us on here are engineers than aren't

richie123

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Like I said earlier


__________________

Yes but it's costs an absolute fortune
It's years away before it becomes viable.
Most farmers are decent enough to measure grass by eye especially good dairy men where it's more important.
Walking covers each week and observing it is and knowing where your gonna have surpluses is better than doing nothing.

alps

Farms that measure grow more grass than those that don't..

Indisputable fact...


Not sure how they know!!

Mooooo

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

I’m not sure are you agreeing with me or saying that the people you’ve heard similar from are snake oil men .

There is a lot of stuff put out there as better technology etc but a lot of the time it adds costs that simply isn't recuperated on farm. More jobs for lads outside the farm gate but more cost inside. Hence when anything is out there a proper ROI has to be shown.
Most lads have no issue trying anything technology wise but it has to give a tangible financial return to the farmer. Margins are tight enough as it is

_Brian

alps wrote: »

Farms that measure grow more grass than those that don't..

Indisputable fact...


Not sure how they know!!

It’s a repeated outcome across all industries. If you want to improve something the first move is to quantify it efficiently.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

It’s a repeated outcome across all industries. If you want to improve something the first move is to quantify it efficiently.

The trouble is basing grass purely on metrics of quantity can lead to ignorance of other elements relating to health, mineral status, soil nitrogen fixation.
It can lead to a race for quantity over quality and tie you further into secondary ag industry dependence.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

The trouble is basing grass purely on metrics of quantity can lead to ignorance of other elements relating to health, mineral status, soil nitrogen fixation.
It can lead to a race for quantity over quality and tie you further into secondary ag industry dependence.

Agree completely

You want to improve these?? Start measuring them, same principle applies.

emaherx

_Brian wrote: »

Agree completely

You want to improve these?? Start measuring them, same principle applies.

data is useful, you can do alot with data

But then again

“You can have data without information, but you cannot have information without data.” – Daniel Keys Moran, an American computer programmer and science fiction writer.

or

“If we have data, let’s look at data. If all we have are opinions, let’s go with mine.” – Jim Barksdale, former Netscape CEO

yosemitesam1

_Brian wrote: »

Agree completely

You want to improve these?? Start measuring them, same principle applies.

If only things were that simple. The bulk of biological type farming will always be more of an art than a science. It simply wouldn't be possible to measure or isolate a large amount of the variables let alone interpret the data generated.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

Agree completely

You want to improve these?? Start measuring them, same principle applies.

It's not always as simple though.

Every single person on the planet has a different definition of health and what constitutes health in a plant,animal, human and back to soil. Companies sell products to right one or so they think and it has knock on effects on the others. Sometimes for decades.

Then you have the cost of testing which is just a snapshot in time. A useful one but..

It's the eyes and feet on the ground and the thinking back months later of that eureka moment that usually mean all.

Procastination..:D