New build house: not wired for fibre to the home

fungie

I live in a new build as part of a large development in Dublin. I signed up with Vodafone for tv and broadband. KN (the company that installs on behalf of OpenEir) came to set it up, they informed me that the house isn't set up for fibre (there is Eir and Virgin boxes at the front door, I've been with Virgin since I moved in) and that they would have to drill a hole, lay cable from outside, all around the living room, over the door to the tv. This would be pretty unsightly.

I asked what is the function of the Eir box that's already there. KN said it's for copper broadband. Interestingly enough, we can't get copper broadband in our area, so the box is essentially redundant according to them.

My question is: are KN just being lazy as it's easier for them to just drill rather than using the existing internal wiring of the house or are new builds just not set up correctly for FTTH out the gate? I would of thought that the planning regulations would require developers to make houses "fibre ready".

ec18

same situation here, Virgin seem to be the only company that's done FTTH in new builds. OpenEir bit slower about it.....most of them won't use the internal house wiring, probably more time allocated per job more so than them being lazy

fungie

ec18 wrote: »

same situation here, Virgin seem to be the only company that's done FTTH in new builds. OpenEir bit slower about it.....most of them won't use the internal house wiring, probably more time allocated per job more so than them being lazy

I don't think that is the case with me. We can get OpenEir and there is an Eir Box outside beside the Virgin one (picture attached). I'm just finding it hard to believe that they can't use the Eir box, but would rather drill in. I've no way of finding out who is correct though

jester77

Do you have CAT cable going to different locations in the house? Wouldn't need to drilling or laying cables if you do. If not, then surely they could just run the cable through the same conduit that is behind the TV.

fungie

jester77 wrote: »

Do you have CAT cable going to different locations in the house? Wouldn't need to drilling or laying cables if you do. If not, then surely they could just run the cable through the same conduit that is behind the TV.

I've no idea about that being honest. There are several 'tv points' around the house.

ec18

fungie wrote: »

I don't think that is the case with me. We can get OpenEir and there is an Eir Box outside beside the Virgin one (picture attached). I'm just finding it hard to believe that they can't use the Eir box, but would rather drill in. I've no way of finding out who is correct though

exact same as yourself. The line running to that box is essentially a dead line according to sky and the kn engineer.

What do you mean drill in? to bring the line from outside in? They'll have to drill somewhere? The eir connection is probably a dead line

fungie

ec18 wrote: »

exact same as yourself. The line running to that box is essentially a dead line according to sky and the kn engineer.

What do you mean drill in? to bring the line from outside in? They'll have to drill somewhere? The eir connection is probably a dead line

My point is, I would assumed new builds are required to be FTTH ready. Why put in a dead line that could never be used?

ec18

if you can get virgin fibre then you're home has FTTH? it's just you'd prefer a different provider? Openeir is a private company who are a bit useless to say the least but it's just waiting game as to when openeir and siro roll out to your house

babi-hrse

Most builders put cat5 in to etu even in new builds (the box outside the house below the ESB meter)
The fibre cable is actually fibre this time (not what providers have been marketing as fibre)
The light cannot go over copper obviously. The best they can do is drill through the wall then drill and plug your cat5 cable through the wall and plug it into the connection point to reroute the connection around to the other end.
Even houses that are wired for fibre only have one end terminated the other end is chopped off left in the etu but the problem is the signal may degrade too much for it to be utilised as the builder didn't have to test both ends
Virgin media isn't fibre either it's a docsis network running over coax cable. Most homes built in the last 15 years have coax and cat5 prewired
Homes that do have ftth prewired have varying levels of quality with how it was made off

Cyrus

first off do not let anyone drill anything, speak to neighbours if you can, but id be surprised if in a new build with cabinets like that, that you dont have ducting to a point somewhere in the house where the fibre can goto.

the 'dead line' could just have been put in as a pull cable potential, and if they use it make sure they replace it with another so the duct can be used again.

fungie

Cyrus wrote: »

first off do not let anyone drill anything, speak to neighbours if you can, but id be surprised if in a new build with cabinets like that, that you dont have ducting to a point somewhere in the house where the fibre can goto.

the 'dead line' could just have been put in as a pull cable potential, and if they use it make sure they replace it with another so the duct can be used again.

I've asked our development facebook group but It appears I'm the first person to try get a non-Virgin connection.

Cyrus

fungie wrote: »

I've asked our development facebook group but It appears I'm the first person to try get a non-Virgin connection.

where does the virgin line come into, and do you have any comms cabinet or a duct coming in under units in your utility or kitchen or under the stairs or something?

presume virgin didnt drill anywhere?

fungie

Cyrus wrote: »

where does the virgin line come into, and do you have any comms cabinet or a duct coming in under units in your utility or kitchen or under the stairs or something?

presume virgin didnt drill anywhere?

Virgin didn't drill anywhere, they just came in, done something to the box outside shown in the picture. Stuck the virgin thing on the wall (pic attached) and it worked.

I've no idea where the virgin comes in, I assumed it was thing virgin branded thing outside (shown above)

What would a comms unit look like?

Vegeta

I have FTTH. It comes in on a fibre optic cable, this cable has to terminate in a specific way.

Take a look at the first paragraph at this link and specifically the UG box and the ONT box. These need to be put close together, somewhere of your choosing and near a power source.

https://conor.engineer/2018/02/17/home-network/

un5byh7sqpd2x0

The Eir box on the wall is for your copper phone line, and DSL or FttC broadband if you were to go for either of those.

Cyrus

fungie wrote: »

Virgin didn't drill anywhere, they just came in, done something to the box outside shown in the picture. Stuck the virgin thing on the wall (pic attached) and it worked.

I've no idea where the virgin comes in, I assumed it was thing virgin branded thing outside (shown above)

What would a comms unit look like?

well it depends i have a half height cabinet in my house but youd know if you had one. virgin is obviously wired from the outside box to the point in the house already, the question is where does the cabling in the eir box terminate to and if you are 'set up' for ftth.

we were, and the fibre comes in through the duct and then into an ONT.

dubrov

Given the installer was talking about putting in wiring to the TV, it sounds like you have your wires crossed and it is an internal cabling issue.

Vodafone distribute their TV over the internet so do you currently have a network point close to the TV?

fungie

dubrov wrote: »

Given the installer was talking about putting in wiring to the TV, it sounds like you have your wires crossed and it is an internal cabling issue.

Vodafone distribute their TV over the internet so do you currently have a network point close to the TV?

Interestingly enough, the developers sent some people over to check and they said that the place is properly wired for FTTH and the could just connect the fibre cable from outside to the box shown above. There is even a rope to pull it through.

The only reason they mention why they wanted to drill was that vodafone aren't allowed use the Eir ducting? I find this hard to believe though.

L1011

The actual connection to the ONT is owned by openeir and not Vodafone. As pointed above this sounds like Vodafone getting an internal ethernet connection to their TV STB

Cyrus

fungie wrote: »

Interestingly enough, the developers sent some people over to check and they said that the place is properly wired for FTTH and the could just connect the fibre cable from outside to the box shown above. There is even a rope to pull it through.

The only reason they mention why they wanted to drill was that vodafone aren't allowed use the Eir ducting? I find this hard to believe though.

they are just being lazy

most installers default position is to drill a hole that makes it as handy as possible for him.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

fungie wrote: »

Interestingly enough, the developers sent some people over to check and they said that the place is properly wired for FTTH and the could just connect the fibre cable from outside to the box shown above. There is even a rope to pull it through.

The only reason they mention why they wanted to drill was that vodafone aren't allowed use the Eir ducting? I find this hard to believe though.

If it's Vodafone, it's SIRO not Eir's FTTH so it has nothing to do with OpenEir's infrastructure.

The SIRO fibre is pulled to your ESB meter box and from there there's a box that will go on the outside of your house with another corresponding box on the immediate opposite side of this wall.

babi-hrse

Cyrus the term you touch it you bought it.
Nobody is going to be pulling cat5 cables that go around bricks and across floor joists and back down into a Comms room 20feet away. Your likely to snag and tear the cable. Now who's going to replace it the kn lad isn't going to do that. He'll happily let you demonstrate it because if and likely when it does break it's not his issue that internal wiring was damaged.

fungie

Steven Long Cerebellum wrote: »

If it's Vodafone, it's SIRO not Eir's FTTH so it has nothing to do with OpenEir's infrastructure.

The SIRO fibre is pulled to your ESB meter box and from there there's a box that will go on the outside of your house with another corresponding box on the immediate opposite side of this wall.

It's OpenEir and not siro

Cyrus

babi-hrse wrote: »

Cyrus the term you touch it you bought it.
Nobody is going to be pulling cat5 cables that go around bricks and across floor joists and back down into a Comms room 20feet away. Your likely to snag and tear the cable. Now who's going to replace it the kn lad isn't going to do that. He'll happily let you demonstrate it because if and likely when it does break it's not his issue that internal wiring was damaged.

if there are ducts in place it should be relatively straightforward instead of putting a big hole in someones brickwork.

babi-hrse

Cyrus wrote: »

if there are ducts in place it should be relatively straightforward instead of putting a big hole in someones brickwork.

If they are.

Full disclosure I am a kn installer and am active on ftth boards.
Very few houses have ducting in place. Most have been only apartment blocks. That's a system that works well and how they build houses in mainland Europe a rewire is just pushing cables up a Flexi conduit.
In Ireland it's rare to see a duct. The cables get routed in straight sections of ducting and galvobarred onto brickwork and plastered over and that's likely the last time it's ever used because one bend and the fibre isn't going around it.
I've been putting lines into houses for years and if I can avoid drilling I will but pulling a wire that goes into the ceiling and across a couple of rooms back down into utility Comms room is a rock many installers have perished upon when it gets damaged somebody goes from a"h if it goes it goes" to full on "you've damaged my cable how are you going to fix it?!." We just don't do it.

Cyrus

babi-hrse wrote: »

If they are.

Full disclosure I am a kn installer and am active on ftth boards.
Very few houses have ducting in place. Most have been only apartment blocks. That's a system that works well and how they build houses in mainland Europe a rewire is just pushing cables up a Flexi conduit.
In Ireland it's rare to see a duct. The cables get routed in straight sections of ducting and galvobarred onto brickwork and plastered over and that's likely the last time it's ever used because one bend and the fibre isn't going around it.
I've been putting lines into houses for years and if I can avoid drilling I will but pulling a wire that goes into the ceiling and across a couple of rooms back down into utility Comms room is a rock many installers have perished upon when it gets damaged somebody goes from a"h if it goes it goes" to full on "you've damaged my cable how are you going to fix it?!." We just don't do it.

fair enough im only going on the experience of my own house, i do have ducts, but some of the neighbours who didnt realise they were there ended up with holes drilled where there was no need and they would have been quicker using the ducts that were put there for that very reason.

also would it not be unusual to have those boxes there if they werent already wired or there was a duct to something inside?

L1011

Steven Long Cerebellum wrote: »

If it's Vodafone, it's SIRO not Eir's FTTH so it has nothing to do with OpenEir's infrastructure.

The SIRO fibre is pulled to your ESB meter box and from there there's a box that will go on the outside of your house with another corresponding box on the immediate opposite side of this wall.

Vodafone offer over the Eir network also; the very first post specified it was Openeir.

A few other firms also do Openeir+SIRO - Airwire at least.

fungie

Cyrus wrote: »

if there are ducts in place it should be relatively straightforward instead of putting a big hole in someones brickwork.

I had 2 people from the developers come to my house and confirm that the estate is 'ducted' but KN refused to use it. I may get them back but what do I say to avoid the same thing happening again?

Cyrus

fungie wrote: »

I had 2 people from the developers come to my house and confirm that the estate is 'ducted' but KN refused to use it. I may get them back but what do I say to avoid the same thing happening again?

to be honest your best bet is probably to try pull a cable or piece of string throught it yourself, proof of concept

fungie

Cyrus wrote: »

to be honest your best bet is probably to try pull a cable or piece of string throught it yourself, proof of concept

I really hope it doesn't have to come to that. It's always annoying why these things are so complicated and can't just be done right first time. You also have to be on the ball, otherwise you end up with a hole in your house

Cyrus

fungie wrote: »

You also have to be on the ball, otherwise you end up with a hole in your house

absolutely!

NBAiii

Generally the new fibre network has taken the same route as the traditional copper network so the installer would pull a cable from an underground chamber or pole through pre-installed duct (developer installed) to the box (ETU) on your home.

This would be standard practice. The fact that they did not attempt this would lead me to believe that the fibre network may have taken a different route. Seeing as your development has never had a copper network may have made the ETU and associated ducting redudant.

Nobody here can tell you for certain what way the network is built in your development. If the ducting cannot be used you are not going to force them to use it.

Have you opened the ETU? They may have had to drill through the back of it anyway to gain access to your premises.

babi-hrse

The etu generally was wired for cat5 for a copper dropwire to be brought to that point then they just connected external copper line to internal copper line and put a phone socket on and the job was done no mess. Builders are still leaving cat5 there even though this method of connection no longer works for a optical cable.
Some housing estates are running a fibre connection from inside the house to the etu but I've only managed to get a passable result once out of 6 times. The fibre was only terminated on one end by the builder. You can't verify a splice is good until you have both ends made off and a light shone through it so it's there but cannot be certified to be done correctly.
If houses were ducted internally we would be flying.
Not all are are dilligent at checking but I always check if there's a exposed duct going into the house.
If all I can see is a metal knockout box on a wall with no duct that isn't on within 3 meters of the etu. it's not gonna work. I'll be happy to humour ya for three or five minutes using less than a pound and a half of force I'll even encourage you have a go that way you'll save yourself the coulda woulda shoulda stress of thinking about it after the install.
I have no problem with people wanting to discuss how they want it brought in it is their home after all I'm only there for 1-3 hours depending on the job the homeowner has to live with it after install so their input is taken on. But we also have to operate to the realities of the way the majority of houses were built in this country.

NBAiii

babi-hrse wrote: »

The etu generally was wired for cat5 for a copper dropwire to be brought to that point then they just connected external copper line to internal copper line and put a phone socket on and the job was done no mess. Builders are still leaving cat5 there even though this method of connection no longer works for a optical cable.
Some housing estates are running a fibre connection from inside the house to the etu but I've only managed to get a passable result once out of 6 times. The fibre was only terminated on one end by the builder. You can't verify a splice is good until you have both ends made off and a light shone through it so it's there but cannot be certified to be done correctly.
If houses were ducted internally we would be flying.
Not all are are dilligent at checking but I always check if there's a exposed duct going into the house.
If all I can see is a metal knockout box on a wall with no duct that isn't on within 3 meters of the etu. it's not gonna work. I'll be happy to humour ya for three or five minutes using less than a pound and a half of force I'll even encourage you have a go that way you'll save yourself the coulda woulda shoulda stress of thinking about it after the install.
I have no problem with people wanting to discuss how they want it brought in it is their home after all I'm only there for 1-3 hours depending on the job the homeowner has to live with it after install so their input is taken on. But we also have to operate to the realities of the way the majority of houses were built in this country.

I think the issue here, if I am reading it correctly, is that the installer would not even use the ETU and associated duct. The OP has stated that the ETU has a pull rope installed so I'm not sure what is going on. This is what lead me to believe that he could not use it rather than refused. I don't think we are getting the full picture.

babi-hrse

Cyrus wrote: »

where does the virgin line come into, and do you have any comms cabinet or a duct coming in under units in your utility or kitchen or under the stairs or something?

presume virgin didnt drill anywhere?

The Virgin line is not fibre much like open eir's fibre to the exchange or fibre to the cabinet isn't full fibre it's only part thereof to a point. Virgins cable is a coax cable that's made off on an oscillator in the jb4 outside in the road then it's simply coupled to the internal coax cable in the etu. Much like open eir's old copper network was crimped to the internal cat5 to connect to internal wiring.
Ftth is glass inside the cable is actually glass.
The issue is providers have been selling everything as fibre because somewhere way back on the network nowhere near the house fibre had a hand in transporting the traffic. This marketing has now gotten many confused who believe they have fibre when they point to their eircom phone socket or virgin media connection point.
Openeir Siro and magnet are the only networks that have a fibre connection.

fungie

NBAiii wrote: »

I think the issue here, if I am reading it correctly, is that the installer would not even use the ETU and associated duct. The OP has stated that the ETU has a pull rope installed so I'm not sure what is going on. This is what lead me to believe that he could not use it rather than refused. I don't think we are getting the full picture.

They didn't even check could it worked, just looked at the box and went "won't work".

They should at least test it to see rather than, drill first, ask questions later.

fungie

babi-hrse wrote: »

The Virgin line is not fibre much like open eir's fibre to the exchange or fibre to the cabinet isn't full fibre it's only part thereof to a point. Virgins cable is a coax cable that's made off on an oscillator in the jb4 outside in the road then it's simply coupled to the internal coax cable in the etu. Much like open eir's old copper network was crimped to the internal cat5 to connect to internal wiring.
Ftth is glass inside the cable is actually glass.
The issue is providers have been selling everything as fibre because somewhere way back on the network nowhere near the house fibre had a hand in transporting the traffic. This marketing has now gotten many confused who believe they have fibre when they point to their eircom phone socket or virgin media connection point.
Openeir Siro and magnet are the only networks that have a fibre connection.

So you're saying that the speeds via Vodafone, Eir and Sky up to 1GB/s aren't from FTTH but rather FTTC?

NBAiii

babi-hrse wrote: »

The Virgin line is not fibre much like open eir's fibre to the exchange or fibre to the cabinet isn't full fibre it's only part thereof to a point. Virgins cable is a coax cable that's made off on an oscillator in the jb4 outside in the road then it's simply coupled to the internal coax cable in the etu. Much like open eir's old copper network was crimped to the internal cat5 to connect to internal wiring.
Ftth is glass inside the cable is actually glass.
The issue is providers have been selling everything as fibre because somewhere way back on the network nowhere near the house fibre had a hand in transporting the traffic. This marketing has now gotten many confused who believe they have fibre when they point to their eircom phone socket or virgin media connection point.
Openeir Siro and magnet are the only networks that have a fibre connection.

This is not true. Virgin's new builds are using fibre to the premises (RFoG).

NBAiii

fungie wrote: »

They didn't even check could it worked, just looked at the box and went "won't work".

They should at least test it to see rather than, drill first, ask questions later.

The fibre cable must be brought from a distribution point, which is a black plastic box, to your premises. If your ETU and its duct is not connected to the distribution point location (an underground chamber or a pole) there is not a lot the installer can do to rectify this.

As I said earlier without knowing the specific layout of your development people are left speculating. If the installer, who knows where the cable is coming from, said it is not possible then it may just not be possible.

babi-hrse

NBAiii wrote: »

This is not true. Virgin's new builds are using fibre to the premises (RFoG).

This I did not know and I thank you for it.
I've seen these things in apartment block risers have not seen them in an etu at side of a house and Id highly doubt I ever will etu are just plastic boxes with a duct from the street distribution point to the side of the house where the builders run some cables to meet whatever comes from the network. As such they get alot of moisture and spiders I'd be highly surprised if I saw a 220v mains plug in one powering an ont but if that was the case then the cat5 could be plugged into it and modem left on other end inside the house.
The sensible option is if there's a power socket on the other side of the wall of the etu or a duct to other side cable can be put through and installed with ont on wall then put cat5 cable through and put an rj45 on plug into ont to bring connection back to Comms room via the existing cat5. Your modem will be central where you want it but the fibre connection will likely be in the hall.
Failing all of that you could always ask the installer for a length of it and get an electrician to fish it inside your wall cavities and leave the rest of it looped up until the install comes back out.

babi-hrse

fungie wrote: »

So you're saying that the speeds via Vodafone, Eir and Sky up to 1GB/s aren't from FTTH but rather FTTC?

No I'm saying the opposite. Not sure where you got that from what I stated. Fttc is simple and mostly already in place and always accommodated.
Whereas ftth is a pain it's one continuous cable the whole way up cannot be joined to another ftth cable best we can do is put a coupler in between them which causes losses and hope the other end was made off well which it usually isn't and we're not about to go chopping builders electrical crews' bespoke connector off in place of our own because if it doesn't work out we've just tampered with it.
If the building regulations change where they build a fixed connection point inside the etu we'd only be all too delighted to just plug into them and finish the job there.
(Which is really the way it should be)