65 Acre Holding - Ideas?

Grueller

Jjameson wrote: »

Well that’s what we should all do young or old!

Have done most of it and I regret it to be honest. I stuck it out over there for a year as I felt I should after going. I just found that it is hard to escape the Irish on tour tour tomfoolery. I travelled Europe before too and loved it. Spent 2 months working in Budapest and it was the best two months ever. Lovely warm friendly people when you respect their culture and try to integrate.

kerryjack

Grueller wrote: »

Have done most of it and I regret it to be honest. I stuck it out over there for a year as I felt I should after going. I just found that it is hard to escape the Irish on tour tour tomfoolery. I travelled Europe before too and loved it. Spent 2 months working in Budapest and it was the best two months ever. Lovely warm friendly people when you respect their culture and try to integrate.

Look at the stories and the experiences you have from your travels. A bit of travelling is nice and broadens the mind a few lads down here never left the cow ****e, ould men before there time.

Tonynewholland

kerryjack wrote: »

Look at the stories and the experiences you have from your travels. A bit of travelling is nice and broadens the mind a few lads down here never left the cow ****e, ould men before there time.

I agree about traveling and seeing some of the world but never understand why leave a dairy farm to go milking somewhere else world.

GrasstoMilk

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Problem with sub 60 cows is you need to be top of your game. Alot of costs will be similar and you will not be able to get volume discounts. There is another issue as well regulations between present nitrates regs , even simple things like derogation farmers having to use LESS and finally you have down the road reduced stocking levels and milking platform nitrates limits.

For this type of dairy farm you need a 16-1700 gallon high EBI cow in old money (7500L cow). You will not buy them type of cows, in reality you will need to breed. The difference between a 5.5kL cow and a 7.5k is 6-700 euro on turnover. On OP's 40 cow herd it's the difference between hitting 100 k in turnover compared to maybe 70-75k. However the real sting is where In this type of herd you only hit 65k in turnover due to buying in cows.
If he breeds his own long-term he maybe need 5-8 replacements a year. That means AI'ing 20-25 every year between repeats and bull calves. I know a lad running such a system but he is top of his game regarding breeding, feeding, grassland management. He milking 50 cows on a 35 acres platform, but he milks all year around and he is farming 70+ acres including rented ground. He grows a bit of tillage and crimps barley for the cows as well as a small zero grazer

Milking 40ish cows is only really an long-term family option IMO if your better half has a good job and you can manage the farm , drop and collect kids to school and avoid a lot of creche and child minding fees.

Yes things like OAD milking and buying in replacements is an option but you will be hard pushed to turn over much with 60k in such a situation.

Yes you will buy those type of cows Bass
We'll bring in 2500/cow in milk sales and we're not near 7500l cows
Yes you need to be on top of your game but if you buy decent stock and run them well and do the job right you'll do aswell as any

Grueller

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Yes you will buy those type of cows Bass
We'll bring in 2500/cow in milk sales and we're not near 7500l cows
Yes you need to be on top of your game but if you buy decent stock and run them well and do the job right you'll do aswell as any

Absolutely. I have 1st calvers all bought in that sold €1800 of milk. They should do €2200 next year if prices are similar and a bit more the following year.

Jjameson

Grueller wrote: »

Absolutely. I have 1st calvers all bought in that sold €1800 of milk. They should do €2200 next year if prices are similar and a bit more the following year.

They’d have to be very expensive before you’d breed and rear them any cheaper. Put the fr bulls in the equation and compare to selling all x beef calves, the time resources.

wrangler

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Yes you will buy those type of cows Bass
We'll bring in 2500/cow in milk sales and we're not near 7500l cows
Yes you need to be on top of your game but if you buy decent stock and run them well and do the job right you'll do aswell as any

A while back I posted that €300/acre was a poor price for landrent with cows grossing well over €2000 in sales........ why did posters on here claim I was exaggerating.
It doesn't take a genius to multiply 7500l by 35c

Say my name

wrangler wrote: »

A while back I posted that €300/acre was a poor price for landrent with cows grossing well over €2000 in sales........ why did posters on here claim I was exaggerating.
It doesn't take a genius to multiply 7500l by 35c

Probably because Greenfields had costs of 35c (someone correct me) and rent of 150/acre.

Bass Reeves

I see that the nitrating rating of a dairy cow has gone from 85 to 89 kg/ year next year. This is the start of the push to take it to 100 kgs/ year. This will effect stocking numbers.

At 170 kgs the total number nest year would be sub 50 for the 65 acres. If the cow nitrates go to 100 kgs the number of cows drop to 44 without any allowance for calves, replacement's, stock bull or cull cow factors. If he decides that he will get an nitrates exemption in theory the 65 acres could milk sixty cows allowing a minimum allowance for calves, replacements, stock bull and culls.

But the milking platform may be the new limiting factor within five years as nitrates limits may be set on this. Assuming that the 18 acres was allowable for zero grazing as part of the platform he be allowed 50 cows with a derogation and what ever requlation apply to it. The greens are pushing for the EPA to be the nutrient management agency for intensive dairying. In that case a derogation could cost thousands not hundreds as at present.

As well there is talk about increasing the export age of calves to over 21 days. Minimum mart age will increase as well.

Long-term the limit on this land base will be sub 35 cows without a derogation and about 50 cows with a derogation. Unless beef prices increase dramatically calf prices will at best be stagnent but all calves being 21 days + at sale.

Not sure I be borrowing even 50-100k to invest in such an enterprise

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

A while back I posted that €300/acre was a poor price for landrent with cows grossing well over €2000 in sales........ why did posters on here claim I was exaggerating.
It doesn't take a genius to multiply 7500l by 35c

The problem wrangler us when you beyond 100 cows no matter how good your set up is you start to require a fulltime labour unit to have any lifestyle.

Even in an ideal scenario and you find suitable labour it takes the total output value of 18-20 cows to pay there wages and that for just 40 hours per week. You then have the investment required on the land.

Farm365

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I see that the nitrating rating of a dairy cow has gone from 85 to 89 kg/ year next year. This is the start of the push to take it to 100 kgs/ year. This will effect stocking numbers.

At 170 kgs the total number nest year would be sub 50 for the 65 acres. If the cow nitrates go to 100 kgs the number of cows drop to 44 without any allowance for calves, replacement's, stock bull or cull cow factors. If he decides that he will get an nitrates exemption in theory the 65 acres could milk sixty cows allowing a minimum allowance for calves, replacements, stock bull and culls.

But the milking platform may be the new limiting factor within five years as nitrates limits may be set on this. Assuming that the 18 acres was allowable for zero grazing as part of the platform he be allowed 50 cows with a derogation and what ever requlation apply to it. The greens are pushing for the EPA to be the nutrient management agency for intensive dairying. In that case a derogation could cost thousands not hundreds as at present.

As well there is talk about increasing the export age of calves to over 21 days. Minimum mart age will increase as well.

Long-term the limit on this land base will be sub 35 cows without a derogation and about 50 cows with a derogation. Unless beef prices increase dramatically calf prices will at best be stagnent but all calves being 21 days + at sale.

Not sure I be borrowing even 50-100k to invest in such an enterprise

Is there a formula or way of working out your stocking rate based on the new N figures for Dairy cows to stay below 170kgs?

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem wrangler us when you beyond 100 cows no matter how good your set up is you start to require a fulltime labour unit to have any lifestyle.

Even in an ideal scenario and you find suitable labour it takes the total output value of 18-20 cows to pay there wages and that for just 40 hours per week. You then have the investment required on the land.

I posted that dairy cows produced over €2000 worth of milk and it was refuted, I wasn't referring to profit, €300/acre for land is not dear.
It should push on now anyway with the new regulations

Mooooo

Farm365 wrote: »

Is there a formula or way of working out your stocking rate based on the new N figures for Dairy cows to stay below 170kgs?

170/ 89 is 1.91cows/ ha so for 50 cows plus 10 heifers plus 10 calves you'd be looking at 31.4 ha.
250/ 89 is 2.81. / ha so in derogation you could have 70 cows and 18 heifers and 18 calves on the same ground, assuming you can feed them at that. In general tho when silage ground and replacement ground is included most would max out at 2.5 or 2.6lu/ha unless buying in a share of feed

Jjameson

wrangler wrote: »

I posted that dairy cows produced over €2000 worth of milk and it was refuted, I wasn't referring to profit, €300/acre for land is not dear.
It should push on now anyway with the new regulations

There’s no other livestock enterprise that would turn the colour of that consistently.

Jjameson

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I see that the nitrating rating of a dairy cow has gone from 85 to 89 kg/ year next year. This is the start of the push to take it to 100 kgs/ year. This will effect stocking numbers.

At 170 kgs the total number nest year would be sub 50 for the 65 acres. If the cow nitrates go to 100 kgs the number of cows drop to 44 without any allowance for calves, replacement's, stock bull or cull cow factors. If he decides that he will get an nitrates exemption in theory the 65 acres could milk sixty cows allowing a minimum allowance for calves, replacements, stock bull and culls.

But the milking platform may be the new limiting factor within five years as nitrates limits may be set on this. Assuming that the 18 acres was allowable for zero grazing as part of the platform he be allowed 50 cows with a derogation and what ever requlation apply to it. The greens are pushing for the EPA to be the nutrient management agency for intensive dairying. In that case a derogation could cost thousands not hundreds as at present.

As well there is talk about increasing the export age of calves to over 21 days. Minimum mart age will increase as well.

Long-term the limit on this land base will be sub 35 cows without a derogation and about 50 cows with a derogation. Unless beef prices increase dramatically calf prices will at best be stagnent but all calves being 21 days + at sale.

Not sure I be borrowing even 50-100k to invest in such an enterprise

These limits relate to sfp. If a chap hasn’t got one devil be damned. Paralysis by analysis bass, a milking parlour and a roadway is all that separates a lot of suckler farms from milk. . Beef farming is a dead duck bar you have independent money to prop it, or keep from revenue.
Sheep are like the lottery there’s so many pitfalls. Tillage is only for tillage land.
What’s the alternative for an ambitious energetic young fella to get on?

Jjameson

wrangler wrote: »

I posted that dairy cows produced over €2000 worth of milk and it was refuted, I wasn't referring to profit, €300/acre for land is not dear.
It should push on now anyway with the new regulations

There’s no other livestock enterprise that would turn the colour of that consistently.

older by the day

Jjameson wrote: »

These limits relate to sfp. If a chap hasn’t got one devil be damned. Paralysis by analysis bass, a milking parlour and a roadway is all that separates a lot of suckler farms from milk. . Beef farming is a dead duck bar you have independent money to prop it, or keep from revenue.
Sheep are like the lottery there’s so many pitfalls. Tillage is only for tillage land.
What’s the alternative for to get on?

an ambitious energetic young fella. Should be encouraged not to waste his energy and youth. Get a trade or a good qualification and earn proper money. Unless he has a lot of money behind him I think there are easier ways than starting dairying on a small land base. The small dairy farmer is dependent on the sfp for 30 to 50 per cent of his net profit as well.

Jjameson

older by the day wrote: »

an ambitious energetic young fella. Should be encouraged not to waste his energy and youth. Get a trade or a good qualification and earn proper money. Unless he has a lot of money behind him I think there are easier ways than starting dairying on a small land base. The small dairy farmer is dependent on the sfp for 30 to 50 per cent of his net profit as well.

Most dry stock enterprises are dipping heftily into sfp to stay afloat. Those figures would be dreamland for most!
If he wants to farm it profitably it’s the only show in town.
And I agree logic would say go do something else and set it but that wasn’t an option in the original post.

older by the day

Jjameson wrote: »

Most dry stock enterprises are dipping heftily into sfp to stay afloat. Those figures would be dreamland for most!
If he wants to farm it profitably it’s the only show in town.
And I agree logic would say go do something else and set it but that wasn’t an option in the original post.

Sher I know. You can make a living doing dairy. And he might make a great go of it. But in life there is always something. A dwelling house, wedding, kids, New car ect . Just I would be careful about going into to much debt.

Timmaay

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem wrangler us when you beyond 100 cows no matter how good your set up is you start to require a fulltime labour unit to have any lifestyle.

Even in an ideal scenario and you find suitable labour it takes the total output value of 18-20 cows to pay there wages and that for just 40 hours per week. You then have the investment required on the land.

Dont think I'd agreed with that highlighted point. A full-time labour unit on a compact spring calving 100 to 140cow system alongside the owner/manager is almost definitely a waste from June until the following Feb. The only way the owner should be able to justify it would be if they themselves are doing something else, so are basically parttime. For me personally, I use several different parttime labour units, springtime its mostly calving, April/may/June they do plenty of feild work and after that it's mostly just back to milkings, the wintertime I do most the work myself, but from now on that only takes 4 or 5hours a day. My labour bill does come into the likes of 20k/yr however, which is more like 25cows worth of profits, however personally I more than make that back with off farm income.

older by the day

Timmaay wrote: »

Dont think I'd agreed with that highlighted point. A full-time labour unit on a compact spring calving 100 to 140cow system alongside the owner/manager is almost definitely a waste from June until the following Feb. The only way the owner should be able to justify it would be if they themselves are doing something else, so are basically parttime. For me personally, I use several different parttime labour units, springtime its mostly calving, April/may/June they do plenty of feild work and after that it's mostly just back to milkings, the wintertime I do most the work myself, but from now on that only takes 4 or 5hours a day. My labour bill does come into the likes of 20k/yr however, which is more like 25cows worth of profits, however personally I more than make that back with off farm income.

Depends on your set up I suppose. I know lads with 40 cows and they would need a small army of help. Cows and cattle all over the place

K.G.

To be honest anyone starting out in dairy has to consider the effect derogation disappearing will have on profitability.while it will have a big effect on large established operations it will be catastrophic for smaller highly stocked operations

Water John

I think there is also now an issue of finding a proscessor willing to take new suppliers.