65 Acre Holding - Ideas?

TheClubMan

Hello,

A friend of mine recently came into possession of a farm. It consists of 65 acres. A 40 acre block of grassland around the yard, an 18 acre block of grassland nearby and 12 acres of boggy ground. The yard consists of a 30 cow cubicle shed with slatted tank, 3 bay lean to shed, a hay shed, an old 4 unit parlour, handling yard, silage pit and outbuildings. A tractor and machinery also at his disposal. The majority of the farm needs investment in reseeding, water, fencing, roadways and parlour. He's relatively young and works part time locally in a flexible job. His plan is to restart the dairy enterprise after bringing the farm up to scratch. Milk 40 FR cows on the 40 acre block. Put them in calf to AI beef bulls and buy in replacements. Make silage off the outside block and sell the excess. Graze in the shoulders of the year if need be. Plant the 12 boggy acres with forestry. He has some money to invest in the plan so shouldn't incur too much debt and has dairy experience.

He wants to farm so rent isn't an option. Any flaws in his plan or recommendations on how to get the best margin from the farm?

Thanks.

Bass Reeves

I am not sure if dairying in that scale is viable any longer. It unlikely such an enterprise would throw free enough spare cash to make investment viable and still give a return in income for house put into the project. I be inclined to still plant the boggy parcel a bit away. On the rest run a drystock system whether it is sheep or cattle. Making silage on an external block will require the transport of silage from that block and slurry to it. This involves time and money. Most contractors charge 50/hour to draw and spread slurry. Sale of silage is a break even project at best if you need to replace PnK with artificial fertilizer.

Buying in replacements will limit the potential of the herd as dairy farmers seldom sell there best breeding. I know a farming milking 40ish cows in an 8 unit parkour it takes about an hour from start to finish a 4 unit parkour would surely add 20-30 minutes to that

TheClubMan

I see what you're saying but he sees dairy even on a small scale as his best source of seeking a return on his investment and the only system he'll get a profit from. The old 4 unit would be replaced with a secondhand 6 or 8 unit parlour. Down the line he has an interest in selling direct to the consumer. He is also considering venturing into free range egg production.

cute geoge

I would be slow planting any ground ,This ground will be needed for map acres to keep down stocking rate .Other then that it is similar system to my own.KISS is my motto

Mooooo

I'd say he has the right idea on the cows. He'll see where he can go stocking rate wise himself. Once he keeps efficiency in mind when setting parlour and handling facilities etc. He could probably find 10 unit + parlours second hand right enough once he wouldn't have to do a lot of building for them.
Also agree on not planting the heavy ground, st least not straight away see what the next CAP throws out first

K.G.

My six pence worth is this might be ok if you spend nothing but really 30 to 40 cows in a start up will take a long time to generate a return and it could be 10 years before investment is paid for.i sometimes think people look at dairy farmers spending and think there must be great money in milking. The reality is you have to spend to keep and maintain standards that are expected from dairy farmers. Alot of the time dairy lads have to spend due to nitrates, labour,scc and animal welfare issues but may notnot a massive living out of it after

Siamsa Sessions

Have a look at this website: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/home

I put it together over the past few weeks as I've been humming and hawing over most of the questions in it myself recently. I thought creating this website might help others tease out whether milking cows is for them.

It's not part of any research project and there's no data collected by anyone, or anything like that. The only motivation is to help others, strange as that may seem in our modern world!

Ultimately, this website is "for information purposes only". It's not some sort of how-to guide or list of dos and don'ts - I'm only sharing a few things that were in my head over the past few months.

kerryjack

Anyone local with a similar size holding and age he could go in to partnership with. If you had 2 blocks of 60 you could easily get 100 plus on it and ye could share milking and cut down on machinery costs, done right with a like minded individual would be a great job.

TheClubMan

I don't think the 12 acres of heavy ground qualifies for payment as it's very marginal land covered in rushes. It's not really fit for grazing and wouldn't be worth the money trying to reclaim it.

He's looking at upgrading the parlour, he might squeeze an 8 unit into the same area otherwise it'll be a 6 unit.

@K.G he wouldn't exactly be starting from scratch though as the farm has some facilities in place already, just need to be upgraded. Obviously capital investment is needed as well. If he were to go down the sheep or beef route similar investment would have to be made but he may not see a return or it may take a lot longer given the current prices so would dairy not be a better option in that sense?

Great little site! I'll show it to him.

There is the possibility of going into partnership with a local farmer I'd imagine but it would be a good few years before that could happen.

tanko

TheClubMan wrote: »

I don't think the 12 acres of heavy ground qualifies for payment as it's very marginal land covered in rushes. It's not really fit for grazing and wouldn't be worth the money trying to reclaim it.

You'd be wrong to think that, believe me.

Water John

On that scale Organic dairying may be worth looking at. 30 cows OAD 120,000 litres @ 42c/l gives €50,400 milk sales. Variable costs 15c/l is €18,000. Net €32,400 less fixed costs.
Milking 30 cows OAD would allow time to develop other enterprises or have other employment.
If he's near a larger pop centre, he may be able to sell some direct for €1.50/1.80/l.

MIKEKC

cute geoge wrote: »

I would be slow planting any ground ,This ground will be needed for map acres to keep down stocking rate .Other then that it is similar system to my own.KISS is my motto

You can now draw BP on planted land

Say my name

Jjameson wrote: »

If he’s young and can suffer the lifestyle, starting 40 cows and 8 row parlour is the only show in town to make a few Bob. Sheep perhaps but I wouldn’t wish them on anyone!
A neighbour here with 50 to 60 acres swopped sucklers 6 years ago. A parlour, no roadways or any big drama other than that at first.
There is a shine off the place now. He has all his reseeding, roadways troughs done now and heading for 60+ cows next spring.

There was plenty of naarsayers at the time but he is very happy.

He might be happy now but in farming terms he's a dinosaur.

A cow to the acre stocking rate is about to become extinct. And especially now with the dept calling for a cut of 20% in nitrogen usage.
That farmer is reliant on buying his replacement stock fit for the parlour. With the hol/fr bull calf issue breeders are swinging back to beef breeds and just barely breeding their own.
There's two issues that'll need thinking about.

My own thoughts are there's a lot of people about to get a rude awakening. The paradise could be ending very soon.
The people with the fancy farms getting repossessed are never talked about and there's dairy farms in their number even if the land league do make noises internally about them.

Proceed with caution would be my advice and don't try and keep up with the neighbours.

40 cows on 40 acres. I wouldn't do it. You'll have the same work as 80 and as above the landscape is changing even if it's not already visible. And for a milk round you need other family members. A one man show won't milk cows and sell milk and deal with customers.

Grueller

I know a man milking 64 on a 32 acre grazing block. Buffers until Mayday and from September 1st on with silage from out farm. 8 lines of an 8 unit parlour.

TheClubMan

Water John wrote: »

On that scale Organic dairying may be worth looking at. 30 cows OAD 120,000 litres @ 42c/l gives €50,400 milk sales. Variable costs 15c/l is €18,000. Net €32,400 less fixed costs.
Milking 30 cows OAD would allow time to develop other enterprises or have other employment.
If he's near a larger pop centre, he may be able to sell some direct for €1.50/1.80/l.

Organic dairy is something he has considered. OAD milking would be an attractive option and allow more time off farm while still pulling a wage from the farm. He's just worried the soil indexes and PH level will be too low and may take a 2 years correct before venturing down that route. He'd also like to avail of the organic scheme and an environmental scheme which is currently closed

TheClubMan

Say my name wrote: »

He might be happy now but in farming terms he's a dinosaur.

A cow to the acre stocking rate is about to become extinct. And especially now with the dept calling for a cut of 20% in nitrogen usage.
That farmer is reliant on buying his replacement stock fit for the parlour. With the hol/fr bull calf issue breeders are swinging back to beef breeds and just barely breeding their own.
There's two issues that'll need thinking about.

My own thoughts are there's a lot of people about to get a rude awakening. The paradise could be ending very soon.
The people with the fancy farms getting repossessed are never talked about and there's dairy farms in their number even if the land league do make noises internally about them.

Proceed with caution would be my advice and don't try and keep up with the neighbours.

40 cows on 40 acres. I wouldn't do it. You'll have the same work as 80 and as above the landscape is changing even if it's not already visible. And for a milk round you need other family members. A one man show won't milk cows and sell milk and deal with customers.

Some key points to think about there. Breeding stock do seem pretty easy to source but they are also very expensive at the moment and who knows what way milk price will go in the next year with Covid and Brexit on the horizon.

TheClubMan

Could a simple calf to beef system be a runner for him or would he just be working for Larry?

Say my name

With that acerage and the facilities in place. Suggest to your friend to have a look at contract heifer rearing.

Anyone contracting heifers out likes to have them to go where there's no other stock. There's farmers would have a number easy to stock the farm and allow some fodder be sold on the side.

Then keep the off farm job and have the worries and weather and markets on the heifer supplier.

There's a few posters here who are involved in that sort of thing maybe they'd know more..

TheClubMan

Say my name wrote: »

With that acerage and the facilities in place. Suggest to your friend to have a look at contract heifer rearing.

Anyone contracting heifers out likes to have them to go where there's no other stock. There's farmers would have a number easy to stock the farm and allow some fodder be sold on the side.

Then keep the off farm job and have the worries and weather and markets on the heifer supplier.

There's a few posters here who are involved in that sort of thing maybe they'd know more..

Another avenue he has considered but TB has been notorious in the area down through the years so he reckons he wouldn't get a farmer willing to take the risk with his stock.

Say my name

TheClubMan wrote: »

Another avenue he has considered but TB has been notorious in the area down through the years so he reckons he wouldn't get a farmer willing to take the risk with his stock.

So that leaves him with ..sheep.

Siamsa Sessions

As I read on another thread here: farming is only half a job these days- if that man wants to farm, the he'll go farming no matter the money out of it!

Could he buy 40 FR heifers next Feb/March? He'll get a sense of how hard or easy it is then to find dairy stock.

Rear them and put them in calf in May/June-2022 (AI or bull). He'll learn plenty about rearing calves, getting weanlings over the winter, and getting them in calf.

In parallel, he can spread lime and do a few other tidying jobs around the place, as well as doing some homework on different enterprises and looking around the parish to see what neighbouring farmers who've been at it for years are doing. I'm not saying he should copy anyone but it's no harm to see what's already working and what's not there.

That'll keep him busy until Aug/Sept 2022 If he wants to go ahead and milk cows at that stage, then he can start upgrading the 4-unit parlour and get it ready to milk his 40 heifers in Feb-March-April 2023. Big issue is no income and a few costs along the way until April 2023 but there's very little risk involved either.

If he doesn't want to go milking, then he can sell those 40 in-calf heifers in Sept/Oct and should have somewhat of a decent margin. This is really just a variant of contract rearing with a little more skin-in-the-game.

Mooooo

If tb is an issue in the area whatever way he decides to go he should be looking at high water troughs or covers for troughs and try and ensure feed, feed passages, silage pits can be made badger proof

_Brian

TheClubMan wrote: »

Could a simple calf to beef system be a runner for him or would he just be working for Larry?

Current prices leaving that a tight business.

Water John

TheClubMan wrote: »

Organic dairy is something he has considered. OAD milking would be an attractive option and allow more time off farm while still pulling a wage from the farm. He's just worried the soil indexes and PH level will be too low and may take a 2 years correct before venturing down that route. He'd also like to avail of the organic scheme and an environmental scheme which is currently closed

He can work on things during the 2 years transition. Yes, wait for the scheme to open, I didn't get in the last time but went organic anyway. Hopefully I'm at the front of the queue now. Fully organic next month.
I was doing figures based on the smallest operation being 48 cows, which would give you €51,840 before fixed costs, but that would need 90/100 acres.
As a part time, the smaller operation that he would have I think is a good option.

Bass Reeves

Problem with sub 60 cows is you need to be top of your game. Alot of costs will be similar and you will not be able to get volume discounts. There is another issue as well regulations between present nitrates regs , even simple things like derogation farmers having to use LESS and finally you have down the road reduced stocking levels and milking platform nitrates limits.

For this type of dairy farm you need a 16-1700 gallon high EBI cow in old money (7500L cow). You will not buy them type of cows, in reality you will need to breed. The difference between a 5.5kL cow and a 7.5k is 6-700 euro on turnover. On OP's 40 cow herd it's the difference between hitting 100 k in turnover compared to maybe 70-75k. However the real sting is where In this type of herd you only hit 65k in turnover due to buying in cows.
If he breeds his own long-term he maybe need 5-8 replacements a year. That means AI'ing 20-25 every year between repeats and bull calves. I know a lad running such a system but he is top of his game regarding breeding, feeding, grassland management. He milking 50 cows on a 35 acres platform, but he milks all year around and he is farming 70+ acres including rented ground. He grows a bit of tillage and crimps barley for the cows as well as a small zero grazer

Milking 40ish cows is only really an long-term family option IMO if your better half has a good job and you can manage the farm , drop and collect kids to school and avoid a lot of creche and child minding fees.

Yes things like OAD milking and buying in replacements is an option but you will be hard pushed to turn over much with 60k in such a situation.

kerryjack

To be honest I don't think you should waste your youth milking 40 cows morning and evening, travel learn new skills spend a Christmas on Bondi beach and work in the mines for a year or 2 and enjoy life, the farm will be still there in 10 years time.

Grueller

Jjameson wrote: »

Well that’s what we should all do young or old!

Have done most of it and I regret it to be honest. I stuck it out over there for a year as I felt I should after going. I just found that it is hard to escape the Irish on tour tour tomfoolery. I travelled Europe before too and loved it. Spent 2 months working in Budapest and it was the best two months ever. Lovely warm friendly people when you respect their culture and try to integrate.

kerryjack

Grueller wrote: »

Have done most of it and I regret it to be honest. I stuck it out over there for a year as I felt I should after going. I just found that it is hard to escape the Irish on tour tour tomfoolery. I travelled Europe before too and loved it. Spent 2 months working in Budapest and it was the best two months ever. Lovely warm friendly people when you respect their culture and try to integrate.

Look at the stories and the experiences you have from your travels. A bit of travelling is nice and broadens the mind a few lads down here never left the cow ****e, ould men before there time.

Tonynewholland

kerryjack wrote: »

Look at the stories and the experiences you have from your travels. A bit of travelling is nice and broadens the mind a few lads down here never left the cow ****e, ould men before there time.

I agree about traveling and seeing some of the world but never understand why leave a dairy farm to go milking somewhere else world.

GrasstoMilk

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Problem with sub 60 cows is you need to be top of your game. Alot of costs will be similar and you will not be able to get volume discounts. There is another issue as well regulations between present nitrates regs , even simple things like derogation farmers having to use LESS and finally you have down the road reduced stocking levels and milking platform nitrates limits.

For this type of dairy farm you need a 16-1700 gallon high EBI cow in old money (7500L cow). You will not buy them type of cows, in reality you will need to breed. The difference between a 5.5kL cow and a 7.5k is 6-700 euro on turnover. On OP's 40 cow herd it's the difference between hitting 100 k in turnover compared to maybe 70-75k. However the real sting is where In this type of herd you only hit 65k in turnover due to buying in cows.
If he breeds his own long-term he maybe need 5-8 replacements a year. That means AI'ing 20-25 every year between repeats and bull calves. I know a lad running such a system but he is top of his game regarding breeding, feeding, grassland management. He milking 50 cows on a 35 acres platform, but he milks all year around and he is farming 70+ acres including rented ground. He grows a bit of tillage and crimps barley for the cows as well as a small zero grazer

Milking 40ish cows is only really an long-term family option IMO if your better half has a good job and you can manage the farm , drop and collect kids to school and avoid a lot of creche and child minding fees.

Yes things like OAD milking and buying in replacements is an option but you will be hard pushed to turn over much with 60k in such a situation.

Yes you will buy those type of cows Bass
We'll bring in 2500/cow in milk sales and we're not near 7500l cows
Yes you need to be on top of your game but if you buy decent stock and run them well and do the job right you'll do aswell as any

Grueller

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Yes you will buy those type of cows Bass
We'll bring in 2500/cow in milk sales and we're not near 7500l cows
Yes you need to be on top of your game but if you buy decent stock and run them well and do the job right you'll do aswell as any

Absolutely. I have 1st calvers all bought in that sold €1800 of milk. They should do €2200 next year if prices are similar and a bit more the following year.

wrangler

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Yes you will buy those type of cows Bass
We'll bring in 2500/cow in milk sales and we're not near 7500l cows
Yes you need to be on top of your game but if you buy decent stock and run them well and do the job right you'll do aswell as any

A while back I posted that €300/acre was a poor price for landrent with cows grossing well over €2000 in sales........ why did posters on here claim I was exaggerating.
It doesn't take a genius to multiply 7500l by 35c

Say my name

wrangler wrote: »

A while back I posted that €300/acre was a poor price for landrent with cows grossing well over €2000 in sales........ why did posters on here claim I was exaggerating.
It doesn't take a genius to multiply 7500l by 35c

Probably because Greenfields had costs of 35c (someone correct me) and rent of 150/acre.

Bass Reeves

I see that the nitrating rating of a dairy cow has gone from 85 to 89 kg/ year next year. This is the start of the push to take it to 100 kgs/ year. This will effect stocking numbers.

At 170 kgs the total number nest year would be sub 50 for the 65 acres. If the cow nitrates go to 100 kgs the number of cows drop to 44 without any allowance for calves, replacement's, stock bull or cull cow factors. If he decides that he will get an nitrates exemption in theory the 65 acres could milk sixty cows allowing a minimum allowance for calves, replacements, stock bull and culls.

But the milking platform may be the new limiting factor within five years as nitrates limits may be set on this. Assuming that the 18 acres was allowable for zero grazing as part of the platform he be allowed 50 cows with a derogation and what ever requlation apply to it. The greens are pushing for the EPA to be the nutrient management agency for intensive dairying. In that case a derogation could cost thousands not hundreds as at present.

As well there is talk about increasing the export age of calves to over 21 days. Minimum mart age will increase as well.

Long-term the limit on this land base will be sub 35 cows without a derogation and about 50 cows with a derogation. Unless beef prices increase dramatically calf prices will at best be stagnent but all calves being 21 days + at sale.

Not sure I be borrowing even 50-100k to invest in such an enterprise

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

A while back I posted that €300/acre was a poor price for landrent with cows grossing well over €2000 in sales........ why did posters on here claim I was exaggerating.
It doesn't take a genius to multiply 7500l by 35c

The problem wrangler us when you beyond 100 cows no matter how good your set up is you start to require a fulltime labour unit to have any lifestyle.

Even in an ideal scenario and you find suitable labour it takes the total output value of 18-20 cows to pay there wages and that for just 40 hours per week. You then have the investment required on the land.

Farm365

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I see that the nitrating rating of a dairy cow has gone from 85 to 89 kg/ year next year. This is the start of the push to take it to 100 kgs/ year. This will effect stocking numbers.

At 170 kgs the total number nest year would be sub 50 for the 65 acres. If the cow nitrates go to 100 kgs the number of cows drop to 44 without any allowance for calves, replacement's, stock bull or cull cow factors. If he decides that he will get an nitrates exemption in theory the 65 acres could milk sixty cows allowing a minimum allowance for calves, replacements, stock bull and culls.

But the milking platform may be the new limiting factor within five years as nitrates limits may be set on this. Assuming that the 18 acres was allowable for zero grazing as part of the platform he be allowed 50 cows with a derogation and what ever requlation apply to it. The greens are pushing for the EPA to be the nutrient management agency for intensive dairying. In that case a derogation could cost thousands not hundreds as at present.

As well there is talk about increasing the export age of calves to over 21 days. Minimum mart age will increase as well.

Long-term the limit on this land base will be sub 35 cows without a derogation and about 50 cows with a derogation. Unless beef prices increase dramatically calf prices will at best be stagnent but all calves being 21 days + at sale.

Not sure I be borrowing even 50-100k to invest in such an enterprise

Is there a formula or way of working out your stocking rate based on the new N figures for Dairy cows to stay below 170kgs?

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem wrangler us when you beyond 100 cows no matter how good your set up is you start to require a fulltime labour unit to have any lifestyle.

Even in an ideal scenario and you find suitable labour it takes the total output value of 18-20 cows to pay there wages and that for just 40 hours per week. You then have the investment required on the land.

I posted that dairy cows produced over €2000 worth of milk and it was refuted, I wasn't referring to profit, €300/acre for land is not dear.
It should push on now anyway with the new regulations

Mooooo

Farm365 wrote: »

Is there a formula or way of working out your stocking rate based on the new N figures for Dairy cows to stay below 170kgs?

170/ 89 is 1.91cows/ ha so for 50 cows plus 10 heifers plus 10 calves you'd be looking at 31.4 ha.
250/ 89 is 2.81. / ha so in derogation you could have 70 cows and 18 heifers and 18 calves on the same ground, assuming you can feed them at that. In general tho when silage ground and replacement ground is included most would max out at 2.5 or 2.6lu/ha unless buying in a share of feed

older by the day

Jjameson wrote: »

These limits relate to sfp. If a chap hasn’t got one devil be damned. Paralysis by analysis bass, a milking parlour and a roadway is all that separates a lot of suckler farms from milk. . Beef farming is a dead duck bar you have independent money to prop it, or keep from revenue.
Sheep are like the lottery there’s so many pitfalls. Tillage is only for tillage land.
What’s the alternative for to get on?

an ambitious energetic young fella. Should be encouraged not to waste his energy and youth. Get a trade or a good qualification and earn proper money. Unless he has a lot of money behind him I think there are easier ways than starting dairying on a small land base. The small dairy farmer is dependent on the sfp for 30 to 50 per cent of his net profit as well.

older by the day

Jjameson wrote: »

Most dry stock enterprises are dipping heftily into sfp to stay afloat. Those figures would be dreamland for most!
If he wants to farm it profitably it’s the only show in town.
And I agree logic would say go do something else and set it but that wasn’t an option in the original post.

Sher I know. You can make a living doing dairy. And he might make a great go of it. But in life there is always something. A dwelling house, wedding, kids, New car ect . Just I would be careful about going into to much debt.

Timmaay

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem wrangler us when you beyond 100 cows no matter how good your set up is you start to require a fulltime labour unit to have any lifestyle.

Even in an ideal scenario and you find suitable labour it takes the total output value of 18-20 cows to pay there wages and that for just 40 hours per week. You then have the investment required on the land.

Dont think I'd agreed with that highlighted point. A full-time labour unit on a compact spring calving 100 to 140cow system alongside the owner/manager is almost definitely a waste from June until the following Feb. The only way the owner should be able to justify it would be if they themselves are doing something else, so are basically parttime. For me personally, I use several different parttime labour units, springtime its mostly calving, April/may/June they do plenty of feild work and after that it's mostly just back to milkings, the wintertime I do most the work myself, but from now on that only takes 4 or 5hours a day. My labour bill does come into the likes of 20k/yr however, which is more like 25cows worth of profits, however personally I more than make that back with off farm income.

older by the day

Timmaay wrote: »

Dont think I'd agreed with that highlighted point. A full-time labour unit on a compact spring calving 100 to 140cow system alongside the owner/manager is almost definitely a waste from June until the following Feb. The only way the owner should be able to justify it would be if they themselves are doing something else, so are basically parttime. For me personally, I use several different parttime labour units, springtime its mostly calving, April/may/June they do plenty of feild work and after that it's mostly just back to milkings, the wintertime I do most the work myself, but from now on that only takes 4 or 5hours a day. My labour bill does come into the likes of 20k/yr however, which is more like 25cows worth of profits, however personally I more than make that back with off farm income.

Depends on your set up I suppose. I know lads with 40 cows and they would need a small army of help. Cows and cattle all over the place

K.G.

To be honest anyone starting out in dairy has to consider the effect derogation disappearing will have on profitability.while it will have a big effect on large established operations it will be catastrophic for smaller highly stocked operations

Water John

I think there is also now an issue of finding a proscessor willing to take new suppliers.