Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

..... Unfortunately, we don't have a world class coach.

what constitutes a "world class" coach?

is ian foster world class?

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

This is hilarious. Select based on a tournament 2 1/2 years away but don't dare suffer a drop in performance or you're out. Gas. Set up to fail is the term that springs to mind.

Not what I said. Farrell should still pick his strongest 23. But when picking his extended squads, have one eye on the WC and succession plan in key positions, which is what most other tier 1 nations do and what Farrell fails to do.

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

what constitutes a "world class" coach?

is ian foster world class?

Experienced and successful at a high level.

What has Ian foster got to do with ireland.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

We got "handy" draws in the last 2 world cups for all the good it did us. We're capable of beating all those teams. But we need to start planning for this NOW. I'm not saying chuck out anyone over 30, but selection has to be with an eye on the tournament from now on if were to have any chance. Andy Farrell needs a good six nations or his time is up IMO. Over the weekend we learned that the 4 provinces are far better coached than the Ireland team. With a world class coach and 2 years prep, theres no reason we cant do a job on any of those teams with the player pool we have. Unfortunately, we don't have a world class coach.

We had a world class coach in the last 2 world cups yet looked like a tier 2 team when we played in the QF...

On paper we are good enough to beat any of those teams if we arrive at the RWC in the right frame of mind, Scotland we should beat, SA while a very strong team aren’t the kind of team that will blow teams away on a regular occurrence so should be tight enough if we turn up and then the QF again if we turn up anything is possible, you never know with the demons we will have after that QF defeat to NZL in 2019 maybe that might be a good draw to get in comparison to France in France. One thing I will say about drawing France is unlike the previous 2 QFs this is a team we will know quite well from previous 6N so are unlikely to spring a surprise on us. Despite all the hype France have right now that should be a close game depending on which Ireland show up (if we play like we did in the last 2 QFs they have potential to give us a paddling)

Also 3 years is a long time, France might collapse completely by then and we might rise to the top again, nobody knows but again it’s not nice that once again to get to a RWC SF we must do it the hard way. Personally I think the time is now that we get some of our fearless youngsters involved for that RWC, I can’t see the likes of H.Byrne/Healy , Casey for instance being fearful of a QF and if anything they might relish it.

All I know is if we are to get a SF now it will be richly deserved, we won’t be getting it based on luck or good fortune anyway.

bilston

I see we are headed for a 3 test tour of NZ in 2022

So World Cup build up at the moment

2021
6Ns
Provisional 2 test tour of the Pacific Islands
New Zealand and Argentina at home (presumably at least other test to be finalised)

2022
6Ns
3 test series in New Zealand
Autumn Tests to be confirmed

2023
6Ns
World Cup Warm Ups

So potentially a maximum of 30 tests until our opening WC match.

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

Not what I said. Farrell should still pick his strongest 23. But when picking his extended squads, have one eye on the WC and succession plan in key positions, which is what most other tier 1 nations do and what Farrell fails to do.

How has he failed to do that? Surely that's exactly what he has done this year? What was it, 11 new caps?

rudiger2.0

nc6000 wrote: »

Teams from the same group cannot meet again until the final.

RTE, not unsurprisingly, must have it wrong so..


https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1214/1184340-ireland-draw-champions-south-africa-at-2023-rwc/

Buer

bilston wrote: »

I see we are headed for a 3 test tour of NZ in 2022

I bet Wales got an easier tour.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Experienced and successful at a high level.

What has Ian foster got to do with ireland.

Being on 2 successful lions series and having a pretty successful 4 years with Ireland minus the RWC doesn’t constitute as successful?

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Being on 2 successful lions series and having a pretty successful 4 years with Ireland minus the RWC doesn’t constitute as successful?

As a defence coach. He has no experience as a head coach.

AbusesToilets

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

We had a world class coach in the last 2 world cups yet looked like a tier 2 team when we played in the QF...

On paper we are good enough to beat any of those teams if we arrive at the RWC in the right frame of mind, Scotland we should beat, SA while a very strong team aren’t the kind of team that will blow teams away on a regular occurrence so should be tight enough if we turn up and then the QF again if we turn up anything is possible, you never know with the demons we will have after that QF defeat to NZL in 2019 maybe that might be a good draw to get in comparison to France in France. One thing I will say about drawing France is unlike the previous 2 QFs this is a team we will know quite well from previous 6N so are unlikely to spring a surprise on us. Despite all the hype France have right now that should be a close game depending on which Ireland show up (if we play like we did in the last 2 QFs they have potential to give us a paddling)

Also 3 years is a long time, France might collapse completely by then and we might rise to the top again, nobody knows but again it’s not nice that once again to get to a RWC SF we must do it the hard way. Personally I think the time is now that we get some of our fearless youngsters involved for that RWC, I can’t see the likes of H.Byrne/Healy , Casey for instance being fearful of a QF and if anything they might relish it.

All I know is if we are to get a SF now it will be richly deserved, we won’t be getting it based on luck or good fortune anyway.

We've never performed in a QF, bar the near miracle against Aus in '91. I have zero confidence that we could beat any team, let alone 3 of the best. France will likely hammer us off the park, never mind NZ.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

In fairness, that's a big assumption. We don't even know which players will be still playing. NZ are now having to enter full rebuild mode over the next 2 years.

Whitelock, Smith, Moody and Coles are all potentially gone by 2023; they'll all be 35 or older. Smith and Whitelock have been huge for NZ over the years. Barrett will be 32 and unlikely to have the same pace. He might have even lost his spot by then given he's now in the back three.

As I said elsewhere, France are as likely to completely implode and sack their coach as they are to be the best in the world in 3 years.

It was a complete statistical anomaly for France to be as bad as they were for as long as they were, probably helped by corruption and ineptitude at the top.

They're now completely stacked with incredible players who are for the most part in their early 20s, and there's more talent being pumped out all the time. I wouldn't expect anything other than a strong France for the next decade to be honest.

UAEguy2020

nerd69 wrote: »

Assuming we get out of the group france and nz are likely to be top two in the world at that stage

Ian Foster has been an assistant coach for 9 years...has no head coach expiernece at test level.

molloyjh

Also, balls to this whole idea of getting to a SF. Getting to a SF and losing means Ireland being at the RWC for 2 extra weeks for nothing and makes life at the provinces harder. For what? We need to stop talking about making the SFs and start talking about making the final. I'd much rather we lose a QF than lose a SF. At least that means getting guys back to the provinces and moving on rather than play in that game nobody wants to play in (third place play-off).

UAEguy2020

Bazzo wrote: »

It was a complete statistical anomaly for France to be as bad as they were for as long as they were, probably helped by corruption and ineptitude at the top.

They're now completely stacked with incredible players who are for the most part in their early 20s, and there's more talent being pumped out all the time. I wouldn't expect anything other than a strong France for the next decade to be honest.

But how many times have we been saying that about France the last 9 years? They could be amazing in 2023 but they also could falls to pieces, no one really knows but we have no basis so far to judge if France will be amazing come 2023, what we know now is for the first time in since 2011 they have a competent coaching staff which is a big box ticked but to go from being mediocre at best for 9 years to being a consistent top team is not easy and is far from assured. Right now France are very good but 2023 is a long time away and like we saw for the 2019 RWC that there will be ALOT of twists and turns over the next 2 years.

UAEguy2020

AbusesToilets wrote: »

We've never performed in a QF, bar the near miracle against Aus in '91. I have zero confidence that we could beat any team, let alone 3 of the best. France will likely hammer us off the park, never mind NZ.

Alot of it mentality I feel, its like every RWC is a carbon copy of eachother, we come out cold and totally let the game pass us by only to come back into it at the start of the 2nd half before inevitably falling away again.



If we play like we normally do in a QF in 2023 any of the top teams will blow us away, it would be nice if we have an extra half out lie in on QF day instead of having it 30 minutes in to our QF though for a change.

Some Yoke

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Being on 2 successful lions series and having a pretty successful 4 years with Ireland minus the RWC doesn’t constitute as successful?

Rob Howley was a lions assistant coach too, Les kiss was a decent defence coach at international level, both of these thinggs don necessrily mean international head coach ability

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

Also, balls to this whole idea of getting to a SF. Getting to a SF and losing means Ireland being at the RWC for 2 extra weeks for nothing and makes life at the provinces harder. For what? We need to stop talking about making the SFs and start talking about making the final. I'd much rather we lose a QF than lose a SF. At least that means getting guys back to the provinces and moving on rather than play in that game nobody wants to play in (third place play-off).

Not to get ahead of myself but if we did somehow win our QF we actually would have a great chance of making a final, we'd be against Wales,Argentina or Australia. Australia up in the air as they have really good youth coming through so noone knows where they will be at in 2023 but Ireland would fancy their chances against either of those 3, it wouldnt take an massivly emotional performance to win this match unlike what will be required to beat SA,France,NZL in a QF/PS match up.

UAEguy2020

Some Yoke wrote: »

Rob Howley was a lions assistant coach too

That's why he is now a national team head coach...

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Also, balls to this whole idea of getting to a SF. Getting to a SF and losing means Ireland being at the RWC for 2 extra weeks for nothing and makes life at the provinces harder. For what? We need to stop talking about making the SFs and start talking about making the final. I'd much rather we lose a QF than lose a SF. At least that means getting guys back to the provinces and moving on rather than play in that game nobody wants to play in (third place play-off).

This is madness.

Some Yoke

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

That's why he is now a national team head coach...

of canada

UAEguy2020

Some Yoke wrote: »

Rob Howley was a lions assistant coach too, Les kiss was a decent defence coach at international level, both of these thinggs don necessrily mean international head coach ability

They dont, some make it some dont. Its too early to say where Farrell lies.

Former Former Former

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Alot of it mentality I feel, its like every RWC is a carbon copy of eachother, we come out cold and totally let the game pass us by only to come back into it at the start of the 2nd half before inevitably falling away again.



If we play like we normally do in a QF in 2023 any of the top teams will blow us away, it would be nice if we have an extra half out lie in on QF day instead of having it 30 minutes in to our QF though for a change.

Then don't bother your arse watching it. I don't know why people voluntarily engage in things that make them so miserable. Maybe everything makes them miserable I guess.

Give me a break FFS. Like, do people think the ghost of 2011 is going to be hanging over the players in 2023? Are they going to be having PTSD from 2015, even though none of them were actually there?

We might do well. We might get hammered off the park. We might not even make the QF. That's sport. There's nothing in our DNA that means we're bound to fail, that's just bollocks.

Pissing and moaning about something that's three years away. Jesus.

UAEguy2020

Former Former Former wrote: »

Then don't bother your arse watching it. I don't know why people voluntarily engage in things that make them so miserable.

Give me a break FFS. Like, do people think the ghost of 2011 is going to be hanging over the players in 2023? Are they going to be having PTSD from 2015, even though none of them were actually there?

We might do well. We might get hammered off the park. We might not even make the QF. That's sport. There's nothing in our DNA that means we're bound to fail, that's just bollocks.

Pissing and moaning about something that's three years away. Jesus.

It would nice to be proved wrong for once. Hopefully in 2023 they finally manage it.

guapos

Who are the other two teams in our group likely to be?

Russia/Spain
Samoa

bilston

guapos wrote: »

Who are the other two teams in our group likely to be?

Russia/Spain
Samoa

Pretty much, Europe 2 could be Romania as well

nc6000

rudiger2.0 wrote: »

RTE, not unsurprisingly, must have it wrong so..


https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/1214/1184340-ireland-draw-champions-south-africa-at-2023-rwc/

Yeah, I'd say it's a mistake. In 2007 the final was England v SA and they had been in the same pool. 2011 final was NZ v France who had also already played each other.

The Lost Sheep

Andy Farrell saying after the draw we go to NZ for a 3 test tour in 2022
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/ireland-set-for-three-test-tour-of-new-zealand-in-2022/

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

This is madness.

Why? There's measurable reasons for it. If we don't make the final we still play that weekend. For what? Who remembers that 3rd place game? Ever? Losing a QF means its done and over with. Losing a SF means staying on an extra week for that nothing game. Theres nothing to be gained from it. Whereas the provinces lose guys for an extra week (2 vs a lost QF).

I'm not talking about wanting to lose QFs by the way, I did say I want us to talk about getting to finals as opposed to talk about getting to SFs. I dont want SFs to be as far as our ambition goes. Theres no point in making a SF unless you're trying to make the final. So let's talk about that.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

Why? There's measurable reasons for it. If we don't make the final we still play that weekend. For what? Who remembers that 3rd place game? Ever? Losing a QF means its done and over with. Losing a SF means staying on an extra week for that nothing game. Theres nothing to be gained from it. Whereas the provinces lose guys for an extra week (2 vs a lost QF).

I'm not talking about wanting to lose QFs by the way, I did say I want us to talk about getting to finals as opposed to talk about getting to SFs. I dont want SFs to be as far as our ambition goes. Theres no point in making a SF unless you're trying to make the final. So let's talk about that.

If this is the mentality of the team I would rather we went out in the pool stage and let someone with a better attitude take our spot.


Its important as it gets that horrific monkey off out back and we can bury this "always lose in Quarter final" sword once and for all.