Weekend Boxing Thread (Dubois v Joyce & Jacobs v Rosado)

Morrison J

I thought it was nice that BT called it what it was to be fair. Their cash cow quit and they called him out on it. Compare that to how Sky reacted to when Joshua quit on the first Ruiz fight making phantom panic attack excuses etc and it's actually quite refreshing.

I don't take issue with Dubois there at all either. He's 23 and clearly still learning on the job. Panic set in quick and really his corner should have saved him. Get the doctor to take a look and call it off and make the narrative about how Dubois was brave and wanted to continue so he can save face.

selectamatic

Being knocked down a few times over the course of a few rounds by heavy punches is a bit different to simply taking a knee while actually being slightly ahead in a fight though.

But I'd also agree that Dubois was right not to risk feckin up that eye even further considering he's so young in hw terms.

A poster here made an excellent point that he could have gone for a minute hail mary burst but I suppose he must have been too fatigued.

squinn2912

selectamatic wrote: »

Being knocked down a few times over the course of a few rounds by heavy punches is a bit different to simply taking a knee while actually being slightly ahead in a fight though.

But I'd also agree that Dubois was right not to risk feckin up that eye even further considering he's so young in hw terms.

A poster here made an excellent point that he could have gone for a minute hail mary burst but I suppose he must have been too fatigued.

I remember that point and it was a better way of putting the point I was making at that time. I think ddd corner were very poor. His eye was closed And they sent him out. The ref should’ve been calling the doctor in too. With kell brook it was totally different, he was at the latter end of his career with a belt to cling on to. Dubois risking his sight at 23 in just a stepping stone fight isn’t a sensible move. He’s got time to come again twice

The Nal

Not buying the "hes so young" thing as an excuse either. Different eras I know but look at Klitschko, Tyson, Ali, Foreman, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey and others. All champions by that age. None quit on their knee.

I was bigging Dubois up as much as anyone but he just doesn't have it. Not a killer.

yourdeadwright

The Nal wrote: »

Not buying the "hes so young" thing as an excuse either. Different eras I know but look at Klitschko, Tyson, Ali, Foreman, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey and others. All champions by that age. None quit on their knee.

I was bigging Dubois up as much as anyone but he just doesn't have it. Not a killer.

I felt the same as you on the night but looking at it now it looks like a very serious eye injury ,

It's not like it was a bad cut or a broken jaw or another injury you can battle through, He could have lost his eye ,

My worry for DDD is it happens again and again which we have seen before with broken orbital bones,

The Nal

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I felt the same as you on the night but looking at it now it looks like a very serious eye injury ,

It's not like it was a bad cut or a broken jaw or another injury you can battle through, He could have lost his eye ,

My worry for DDD is it happens again and again which we have seen before with broken orbital bones,

Yeah this is maybe where the corner should've jumped in and kept him in his seat or thrown the towel in. Surely they would've known the extent of the injury?

Kell Brook fought 3 rounds with a broken eye socket against GGG and was still throwing when the towel was thrown in.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I felt the same as you on the night but looking at it now it looks like a very serious eye injury ,

It's not like it was a bad cut or a broken jaw or another injury you can battle through, He could have lost his eye ,

My worry for DDD is it happens again and again which we have seen before with broken orbital bones,

Yes, but boxers aren't actively thinking of how bad the injury is....they are in fighting mode doing their thing....

I think the eye was a bit of a red herring....he simply had enough and decided to give up; I don't think he was thinking in any kind of medical sense here...

As in: I need to preserve my eyesight here....

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but boxers aren't actively thinking of how bad the injury is....they are in fighting mode doing their thing....

I think the eye was a bit of a red herring....he simply had enough and decided to give up; I don;t think he was thinking in any kind of medical sense here...

As in: I need to preserve my eyesight here....

If he couldn't see out of his eye and knew it wasn't going to go well then he might have made a very good decision for the long term future of his career.
We have no way of knowing why he decided to quit.

Morrison J

The Nal wrote: »

Yeah this is maybe where the corner should've jumped in and kept him in his seat or thrown the towel in. Surely they would've known the extent of the injury?

Kell Brook fought 3 rounds with a broken eye socket against GGG and was still throwing when the towel was thrown in.

I don't think Kell Brook is a great example of a guy who doesn't have a quit in him tbf. Ingle did him a massive favour in the GGG fight stopping the fight before it got out of hand though. Took all the flak off Brooks shoulders and Brook got loads of credit for being brave etc. Exactly what Dubois trainer should have done on Saturday.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

If he couldn't see out of his eye and knew it wasn't going to go well then he might have made a very good decision for the long term future of his career.
We have no way of knowing why he decided to quit.

Well, his interview after kind of sold it to me that he had enough and wanted out....

May have been simply spooked by being distressed in there...

First time in any trouble in his career, and he was discombobulated....

Morrison J

The Nal wrote: »

I was bigging Dubois up as much as anyone but he just doesn't have it. Not a killer.

I think it's way too early to make a statement like this though.

Look at Vitali. Quit against Chris Byrd and went on to the Hall of Fame. Fought Lennox with his eye slice open nearly showing bone. You've got to take these things on a case by case basis for me. I even think now that Dubois has quit once and is taking all this flak for it he may be more likely to force his way through it when he's in deep water again. Every fighter is different and it's all speculation until Dubois gets to prove otherwise really.

Morrison J

selectamatic wrote: »

Being knocked down a few times over the course of a few rounds by heavy punches is a bit different to simply taking a knee while actually being slightly ahead in a fight though.

I think when you're facing a potentially career changing injury a quit is much more acceptable to just having the fight beat out of you and not wanting to go on like Joshua did to be fair.

The Nal

Morrison J wrote: »

I think it's way too early to make a statement like this though.

Look at Vitali. Quit against Chris Byrd and went on to the Hall of Fame. Fought Lennox with his eye slice open nearly showing bone. You've got to take these things on a case by case basis for me. I even think now that Dubois has quit once and is taking all this flak for it he may be more likely to force his way through it when he's in deep water again. Every fighter is different and it's all speculation until Dubois gets to prove otherwise really.

True, but Vitali was a veteran at that stage. He made up for it after albeit in the worst era in HW boxing since the 50s.

I like Dubois, hoping he comes back but he'll need to come back roaring hungry to get people back onside. Promoters too. They're not going to throw money at someone they think will pack it in during a war.

selectamatic

Morrison J wrote: »

I think when you're facing a potentially career changing injury a quit is much more acceptable to just having the fight beat out of you and not wanting to go on like Joshua did to be fair.

Dubois was still winning the fight though.

AJ quit too I'm not excusing that but losing the fight and down a few times with your legs still not under ya after getting up is a more normal position to think about quitting from isn't it? Still not at all acceptable from a champ.

Quitting while uderstandable especially when your corner don't do their job and the fight doctor is no where to be seen but I dunno would I say it's ever really acceptable.

Fighters aren't really supposed to be put in a position where they themselves have to decide to quit or not. Cornermen and fight doctors are supposed to make these decisions for them.

Morrison J

selectamatic wrote: »

Dubois was still winning the fight though.

AJ quit too I'm not excusing that but losing the fight and down a few times with your legs still not under ya after getting up is a more normal position to think about quitting from isn't it? Still not at all acceptable from a champ.

Quitting while uderstandable especially when your corner don't do their job and the fight doctor is no where to be seen but I dunno would I say it's ever really acceptable.

Fighters aren't really supposed to be put in a position where they themselves have to decide to quit or not. Cornermen and fight doctors are supposed to make these decisions for them.

Do you think they take the cards that much into account when deciding to quit? I think in heavyweight boxing you should want to hang in there as long as physically possible and back yourself to get the knockout. He had Ruiz standing in the pocket in front of him and had already knocked him down earlier in the fight.

Even taking the cards into account, Joshua was somehow up on one and only down by a round on the other two.

I agree it should come down to the corners at the end of the day and they need to know their fighters. Dubois' body language was off from early in the fight and the corner should have seen that and stepped in. If you have a fighter like Carl Froch who would never pack it in and can turn a fight around like he did against Groves or Taylor than that's a different story mind. It's a case by case, fighter by fighter type of thing.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

like Carl Froch who would never pack it in and can turn a fight around like he did against Groves or Taylor than that's a different story mind. It's a case by case, fighter by fighter type of thing.

Froch was in both those fights giving a fair bit back...

Groves was taking a fair amount of leather off Froch as well, and Froch wasn't badly injured or suffering with closing eyes etc....

With couple rds before he stopped George, you could see that Froch was beginning to take over and getting stronger....

I think a better example was Corrales coming back in fight 1 vs Castillo....

Or Gatti in round 9 vs Ward gritting the teeth and in agony and summoning up all he had to fight back to survive...

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Froch was in both those fights giving a fair bit back...

Groves was taking a fair amount of leather off Froch as well, and Froch wasn't badly injured or suffering with closing eyes etc....

With couple rds before he stopped George, you could see that Froch was beginning to take over and getting stronger....

I think a better example was Corrales coming back in fight 1 vs Castillo....

Or Gatti in round 9 vs Ward gritting the teeth and in agony and summoning up all he had to fight back to survive...

I was using the Froch fights as examples of a fighter being clearly down on the cards though. There was no argument to have him up against Groves or Taylor he was getting dominated until he turned the tide. Some fighters with less mental strength might well have packed it in in that sort of situation. Dropped and buzzed multiple times by Groves. Joshua gets dropped and buzzed by Ruiz and he quits.

Corrales/Castillo and Gatti/Ward were close fights where you could make an argument for either winning at the time of the stoppage.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

I was using the Froch fights as examples of a fighter being clearly down on the cards though. There was no argument to have him up against Groves or Taylor he was getting dominated until he turned the tide. Some fighters with less mental strength might well have packed it in in that sort of situation. Dropped and buzzed multiple times by Groves. Joshua gets dropped and buzzed by Ruiz and he quits.

Corrales/Castillo and Gatti/Ward were close fights where you could make an argument for either winning at the time of the stoppage.

But my point was the state that both were in during rds 10 and 9 respectively I think it was...

Both badly hurt, almost done for, and hung in, bit down, retaliated and saved themselves admirably...