Build Back Better

King Mob

greenspurs wrote: »

Your constant deflection is funny , my question has nothing to do with masks, i asked about why you and DohnJoe cant answer about the liability clause.

Dohnjoe has.

You can't answer a yes or no question.

Dohnjoe

greenspurs wrote: »

You cant answer why the pharma companies are demanding liability clauses for their vaccines.

This has been addressed.

In the case of a vaccine maker like Astra-Zeneca, the liability has been passed from them to government, otherwise it's unlikely they would have undertaken to make the vaccine (in such a period, under these circumstances)

greenspurs

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yes it is about our safety, remember we're weighing up the risks of the vaccine vs the risks of Covid. Let's say they take 5 or 10 years to develop this vaccine, how many will die of Covid approx over that period with no vaccine available vs increasing the speed of vaccine development and having one in the near future

"Proof" ?

So rushing through a vaccine, and demanding a liability clause for a virus that has a 99% recovery rate, is better than taking a year or two to develop and research a developed vaccine ??
:rolleyes:

And how is it for "our safety" if the pharma companies want liability from anything that goes wrong with their rushed vaccine ?????

King Mob

greenspurs wrote: »

"Proof" ?

So rushing through a vaccine, and demanding a liability clause for a virus that has a 99% recovery rate, is better than taking a year or two to develop and research a developed vaccine ??
:rolleyes:

A previous point you guys have ignored:

The chances of any side effects from any vaccine are around 0.00012%
The chances of dying from covid, according to you is 10,000 times greater.

greenspurs

King Mob wrote: »

A previous point you guys have ignored:

The chances of any side effects from any vaccine are around 0.00012%
The chances of dying from covid, according to you is 10,000 times greater.

Is that the figure for the Covid vaccine ?
Have you that figure , before it has been used ?

Dohnjoe

greenspurs wrote: »

So rushing through a vaccine, and demanding a liability clause for a virus that has a 99% recovery rate, is better than taking a year or two to develop and research a developed vaccine ??
:rolleyes:

It normally takes much longer to develop and fully test a vaccine. However, time is of the essence since this is a global pandemic. The virus has killed approx. 1.5 million people already, and done untold economic damage. The sooner a vaccine comes out the better. But obviously they don't want an unsafe vaccine either. So the risks have to be weighed on both sides.

greenspurs

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It normally takes much longer to develop and fully test a vaccine. However, time is of the essence since this is a global pandemic. The virus has killed approx. 1.5 million people already, and done untold economic damage. The sooner a vaccine comes out the better. But obviously they don't want an unsafe vaccine either. So the risks have to be weighed on both sides.

But, they will still release it..... even though they obviously dont know how people will react to it ?
therefore the clause ................

King Mob

greenspurs wrote: »

Is that the figure for the Covid vaccine ?
Have you that figure , before it has been used ?

Again this is the cumulative number from all vaccines being used in the US.

For the covid vaccine to be more dangerous than covid, it has to be suddenly 10,000+ times more dangerous than any other vaccine currently in use.

If it was 10,000+ times more dangerous, then it would have been pretty apparent during it's trials.

The trials have shown that it is not dangerous.
No one has proposed how it might be 4 orders of magnitude more dangerous than any other current vaccine.

So the most likely scenario is that it is not more dangerous than any other vaccine, and thus the death rate for covid is far far more worrying.

Fighting Tao

greenspurs wrote: »

"Proof" ?

So rushing through a vaccine, and demanding a liability clause for a virus that has a 99% recovery rate, is better than taking a year or two to develop and research a developed vaccine ??
:rolleyes:

And how is it for "our safety" if the pharma companies want liability from anything that goes wrong with their rushed vaccine ?????

This little explainer might help understanding how one of the vaccines appeared to be developed so quickly:

It wasn’t developed quickly

sydthebeat

Lex Luthor wrote: »

if masks work, then why the 6ft?

the risk of spread reduces

Lex Luthor wrote: »

if the 6ft works, then why the mask?

the risk of spread reduces

Lex Luthor wrote: »

if both work why the lockdown?

the risk of spread reduces

Lex Luthor wrote: »

if all 3 work why the vaccine?

because vaccines are a replacement to those other measures.
They work to protect the population as a whole.. whereas the other measures simply slow the spread of the infection until vcaccines are available

Lex Luthor wrote: »

if the vaccine is safe, then why the "no liability" clause?

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2030600

Dohnjoe

greenspurs wrote: »

"Proof" ?

So rushing through a vaccine, and demanding a liability clause for a virus that has a 99% recovery rate, is better than taking a year or two to develop and research a developed vaccine ??
:rolleyes:

And how is it for "our safety" if the pharma companies want liability from anything that goes wrong with their rushed vaccine ?????

We have 2 options:

1. Wait 5 to 10 years for normal vaccine development, but by then many more people could die of Covid, and economies could be heavily impacted
2. Speed up the vaccine process, get a vaccine out and potentially save many of those lives and economies can return to normal quicker

Governments around the world have almost universally chosen option 2 because it seems to be the best overall route. However certain vaccine-makers are uncomfortable with having to speed up their usual processes, and it appears don't want to be held to the same liability level as the more normal 5 to 10 year development cycle, which is only normal. In some cases, governments have accepted to take on liability in order to facilitate quicker vaccine development.

Dohnjoe

Article here from the Guardian on how we went from discovery of the virus to developing a vaccine for it
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/the-vaccine-miracle-how-scientists-waged-the-battle-against-covid-19

“It’s novel technology but it is also a very simple one,” said Prof Peter Openshaw of Imperial College London. “Essentially it involves basic chemical synthesis and not much more. You don’t have to carefully tend tissue cultures, keep your vessels highly sterile and so forth. You just make a chemical strand of RNA and put it in a person. That is a key reason that BioNTech and Moderna got such quick results.”

It is also a highly promising technology that could be exploited very quickly in future, Openshaw added. “It’s almost like a plug and play vaccine. You could pick other bits of RNA and create combination vaccines with incredible ease. For instance you could combine influenza RNA with Covid RNA and make a combination vaccine against both diseases. This technology is revolutionary.”

Pretty amazing stuff

Lex Luthor

King Mob wrote: »

A previous point you guys have ignored:

The chances of any side effects from any vaccine are around 0.00012%
The chances of dying from covid, according to you is 10,000 times greater.

Source please?

Never heard this before

Would like to know where that number came from when phase 4 trials haven’t started and it takes years to gather that data

Ah sure anyway if people start dying from the vaccine they will just say it was from underlying conditions

I’ll take my chances with my immune system over a vaccine for a seasonal flu

Lex Luthor

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Article here from the Guardian on how we went from discovery of the virus to developing a vaccine for it
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/the-vaccine-miracle-how-scientists-waged-the-battle-against-covid-19



Pretty amazing stuff

You could
You could
You could

Pffff

Dohnjoe

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Source please?

Out of curiosity, why are you asking for sources, when for multiple conspiracy claims you've made now you haven't provided any?

I hope this isn't a case of one special rule for you and another for others..

King Mob

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Source please?

Never heard this before

Would like to know where that number came from when phase 4 trials haven’t started and it takes years to gather that data

I provided this previously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compensation_Program

The following table shows the awards by main classes of vaccines made to victims in the years 2006-2017. [21] This shows that on average 1.2 awards were made per million applications of vaccines.

1.2 per million is 0.00012%
And again, this includes all adverse effects, not just death.
According to greenspurs, the death rate for covid is 1%

If you believe that the Covid vaccine is going to be more dangerous than the virus itself, you have to believe that the Covid vaccine is at least 10000 times more dangerous than other vaccines.

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Ah sure anyway if people start dying from the vaccine they will just say it was from underlying conditions

Source please?

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I’ll take my chances with my immune system over a vaccine for a seasonal flu

Covid is not an influenza virus and it is not a seasonal flu.

Also, vaccines use your immune system to give you immunity in the same way that the virus does, only without the symptoms and without making you infectious.

Lex Luthor

Fighting Tao wrote: »

This little explainer might help understanding how one of the vaccines appeared to be developed so quickly:

It wasn’t developed quickly

I think I'll change my mind then and take the word of the originator of this clip

Hold on, do they stand to make an absolute fortune from this vaccine? whats all this funny business........

Lex Luthor

I'm just delighted they will have so many guinea pigs taking it

Dohnjoe

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I'm just delighted they will have so many guinea pigs taking it

A lot of self-centered views in this thread. Your older relatives and doctors/nurses in overstretched ICU wards might be very thankful for a vaccine. Also anyone waiting for treatment or surgery that has been delayed due to overwhelmed hospital services.

Fighting Tao

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I think I'll change my mind then and take the word of the originator of this clip

Hold on, do they stand to make an absolute fortune from this vaccine? whats all this funny business........

So you never had a meal out where you see a burger or steak on the menu and ate it? It could kill you, but you are trusting the restaurant who produced the menu even though they make a hefty amount from selling the food. :rolleyes:

I suppose you work for free too.

Lex Luthor

Fighting Tao wrote: »

This little explainer might help understanding how one of the vaccines appeared to be developed so quickly:

It wasn’t developed quickly

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A lot of self-centered views in this thread. Your older relatives and doctors/nurses in overstretched ICU wards might be very thankful for a vaccine. Also anyone waiting for treatment or surgery that has been delayed due to overwhelmed hospital services.

anyone who takes the vaccine should feel safe and not worry about anyone who doesnt

Thats how vaccines work, right?

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So you never had a meal out where you see a burger or steak on the menu and ate it? It could kill you, but you are trusting the restaurant who produced the menu even though they make a hefty amount from selling the food. :rolleyes:

I suppose you work for free too.

world of difference, we have to eat, we dont have to take the vaccine

Fighting Tao

Lex Luthor wrote: »

world of difference, we have to eat, we dont have to take the vaccine

Ah, so lazy...you could grow and rear all your own food instead of supporting those horrendous companies that are there to make a profit.

Lex Luthor

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Ah, so lazy...you could grow and rear all your own food instead of supporting those horrendous companies that are there to make a profit.

where do you think that steak came from?

Fighting Tao

Lex Luthor wrote: »

where do you think that steak came from?

Reading FSAI reports, I wouldn’t be sure in some cases. Maybe the sewer after it fell down an open drain in the restaurant kitchen.

Fighting Tao

So anyway, you don’t trust a vaccine that has been in development for 10 years.

Have you had mumps? I ask because I’d be quite certain that you had that vaccine and it only took 5 years to develop

Yes, half the time as the COVID one.

King Mob

Lex Luthor wrote: »

anyone who takes the vaccine should feel safe and not worry about anyone who doesnt

Thats how vaccines work, right?

Yes.
But there are a lot of people who can't take vaccines for one reason or another. The only way to protect them is to have enough immunity in the population to prevent the virus from spreading far.

Also, as has been explained to you in another point, no measures can be 100% effective, but the more they are applied, the closer they can get to that.

And again, the danger of dying from covid is 10000 times more than the danger of any kind of adverse side effect from a vaccine.
Why be concerned about the vaccine and not covid?

sydthebeat

Lex Luthor wrote: »

anyone who takes the vaccine should feel safe and not worry about anyone who doesnt

Thats how vaccines work, right?

nope

people who dont take a vaccine increase risks to vulnerable people who are unable to take a vaccine of catching a disease... especially vulnerable children who have to go to school with the children of vaccine deniers.

vaccine deniers are the ultimate in "im alright jack" selfish priks

greenspurs

sydthebeat wrote: »

nope

people who dont take a vaccine increase risks to vulnerable people who are unable to take a vaccine of catching a disease... especially vulnerable children who have to go to school with the children of vaccine deniers.

vaccine deniers are the ultimate in "im alright jack" selfish priks

:D:D so eloquently put

Dohnjoe

Lex Luthor wrote: »

anyone who takes the vaccine should feel safe and not worry about anyone who doesnt

Thats how vaccines work, right?

They protect us from dangerous infectious diseases. I can't believe I actually have to write this on a forum.

Thanks to vaccines we no longer have to worry about e.g. Smallpox which killed an estimated 300 million people in the 20th century alone (and many more previously)

Risk of death was about 30%


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

Lex Luthor

they have already stated that they are not sure if you had covid that you have built immunity from it, so if you cant get immunity from the virus with your own in built vaccine builder immune system, then how does a vaccine do it