Are non-monitored systems an effective deterrent?

WhyTheFace

Hi,

I live in a ground floor apt in Dublin City Centre. I have been here almost 20 years and there was only ever one attempted break in through the living room balcony window 16 years ago. The living room looks onto a public pathway in grand canal dock.

Last week I noticed some fresh screw driver action on the window frame where a would be thief tried to jimmy open the frame and pop the window.

I bought an Amazon Blink Mini for 25e which is visible from outside, right next to the window. Quality is decent for such a small camera.

Do you think this would be enough of a deterrent or do thieves not care about these basic security cameras seeing as they are not alarmed or monitored?

Part of me is hoping they might just move on to the next apt with no security at all but the other part of me thinks I should probably fork out on Phone Watch which is only 99e to install and 40e a month thereafter.

All opinions welcome!

Personally I think phonewatch is a waste of money.

A burglar will break into a place without an alarm, before a place with an alarm. Monitoring doesn't make any difference, all phonewatch will do is ring you, or your key holders.

Better off with good and/or nosey neighbours

WhyTheFace

bubblypop wrote: »

Personally I think phonewatch is a waste of money.

A burglar will break into a place without an alarm, before a place with an alarm. Monitoring doesn't make any difference, all phonewatch will do is ring you, or your key holders.

Better off with good and/or nosey neighbours

AFAIK they call the cops if they can't get through to you!

WhyTheFace

WhyTheFace wrote: »

AFAIK they call the cops if they can't get through to you!

They do.
And by the time that happens there are no burglars. Alarm calls are not a priority call.
Give a.key to a neighbour, if the alarm goes off they can check everything if you're not there.

Darc19

WhyTheFace wrote: »

AFAIK they call the cops if they can't get through to you!

LOL, gardai will take an hour to get to the house.

A standard alarm that sends notifications to your phone is all you need

WhyTheFace

Darc19 wrote: »

LOL, gardai will take an hour to get to the house.

A standard alarm that sends notifications to your phone is all you need

But what do you do then if you get a notification and see a clip of someone trying to get in and you're at work. Call the cops?!

Not trying to be smart here, genuinely curious!

Darc19

WhyTheFace wrote: »

But what do you do then if you get a notification and see a clip of someone trying to get in and you're at work. Call the cops?!

Not trying to be smart here, genuinely curious!

Gardai won't give a damn as most burglars are gone in a couple of minutes. Gardai may take fingerprints, do a report and forget it.

I can't see any real advantage of a monitored alarm for the op.

riclad

I think it depends where you live as to how long it takes the Gardaí to respond, and what time it happens, it it morning, daytime, the middle of the night.
Do you live in a city or a small town.
I think saying it takes an hour for cops to respond to an alarm call is incorrect.

WhyTheFace

So then is the most effective option a non-monitored alarm system that will go off if they attempt to break in and so be a significant deterrent, but you do not have to pay a monthly subscription? I think Phone Watch only do a subscription service.

With the Blink Mini for 25e I will be alerted and can call the cops myself, just there is no alarm.

Am I right in thinking that a loud alarm and a box on the wall is the best deterrent?

@Riclad I live in Grand Canal Dock so not far from Ringsend Garda Station.

rizzodun

WhyTheFace wrote: »

But what do you do then if you get a notification and see a clip of someone trying to get in and you're at work. Call the cops?!

Not trying to be smart here, genuinely curious!

I think it's important to think of the role of a security system is to persuade a burger not to attempt a break in, and not as a method of catching the thief after the fact.

Rodin

Buy a German Shepherd and let them roam around the house when you're gone. Tell burglars he's in there... no more break-ins

grogi

rizzodun wrote: »

I think it's important to think of the role of a security system is to persuade a burger not to attempt a break in, and not as a method of catching the thief after the fact.

But if those systems are not useful in catching the culprit, their deterrent efficiency diminishes.

WhyTheFace

rizzodun wrote: »

I think it's important to think of the role of a security system is to persuade a burger not to attempt a break in, and not as a method of catching the thief after the fact.

Then I guess there is little value in a monitored system as they will most likely be long gone by the time the cops call.

Is a security camera on its own much of a deterrent because they will know I will just be notified myself and then have to call the cops.

I am starting to think a non-monitored alarm is the most effective option but I think these are much more expensive to fit than a monitored alarm, as with a monitored alarm they incorporate the price of the hardware into the monthly fee, a bit like a phone contract.

WhyTheFace

Rodin wrote: »

Buy a German Shepherd and let them roam around the house when you're gone. Tell burglars he's in there... no more break-ins

Unlikely in a small 2 bed apt

WhyTheFace

I think I am going to get the Ring Security system.

https://eu.ring.com/products/alarm-security-5-piece-kit?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=IE_English_Shopping_Brand_All_PLA_Low_Google_CPC&utm_content=&utm_term=4K11D9-0EU0&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqdP9BRDVARIsAGSZ8Alkqok1PB5nRT0ssO1nj_1yiTNRTrlxlfUesoAHfg-t39ytmvf5pcgaAmLJEALw_wcB



And maybe this dummy box for the outside

https://www.amazon.co.uk/YALE-DUMMY-SIREN-BOX-FLASHING-YELLOW/dp/B01N3YHTRR/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

There are cheaper ones but they all look very fake.

Any alarm, or even alarm box is a deterrent.
No point throwing money away at phonewatch every month.for.basically nothing.

Alarms are not priority in the garda system, intruders however are, so if you see someone getting into a house or anywhere else, that's what you say on your call.
'there is an intruder breaking into/already inside'

kub

bubblypop wrote: »

Any alarm, or even alarm box is a deterrent.
No point throwing money away at phonewatch every month.for.basically nothing.

Alarms are not priority in the garda system, intruders however are, so if you see someone getting into a house or anywhere else, that's what you say on your call.
'there is an intruder breaking into/already inside'

With 30 years experience in this business behind me, i absolutely agree with your point about an alarm being a detterent.


However an alarm is only as good as the response it receives.


Are you a Garda yourself I have to wonder as you seem to know what is and what is not a priority ?
I trust you are well aware of all official Garda Press releases and their policies with regard to their Intruder Alarm response criteria.
Or perhaps you are not.


It is however much better for The Gardai to successfully prosecute a criminal who they have caught in the act of a burglary and on the actual premises.


I find that therefore, that professionally monitored alarm systems are a very effective means of communicating and notifying of such a situation.


With regard to Phonewatch, can I just please point out that there are plenty of other professional monitoring companies in this country other than them, many of whom have been around a lot longer and are a lot more cost effective than them, so i would encourage the OP to shop around.




With regard to CCTV v's Alarms, there is no direct comparison here, one system will give you playback of the event after it occurred ( and if the intruder has a simple hoodie on, well best of luck trying to identify him ). The other, if it has been installed to En50131 and is professionally monitored will give what is recognised as the best response to an alarm activation event.

As I said intruders do receive priority, an alarm does not.
Yes Gardai will respond, but it could be sometime.
All phonewatch do is ring the keyholders, then Gardai.

Obvs live CCTV monitoring is best, but who is going to pay for that for a house?

kub

bubblypop wrote: »

As I said intruders do receive priority, an alarm does not.
Yes Gardai will respond, but it could be sometime.
All phonewatch do is ring the keyholders, then Gardai.

Obvs live CCTV monitoring is best, but who is going to pay for that for a house?

Ah I see, you have it all worked out.


So if an Intruder sets off an alarm, then it goes down the list of priorities, is it ?


Again have you any idea of Garda response criteria rather than mentioning on here " Yes Gardai will respond, but it could be sometime."


You obviously have facts and figures to back up that claim, have you ?


So as far as you are concerned there is only Phonewatch that monitor alarm systems?


Perhaps best if you go and gather some actual facts so and post up those rather than these sound bytes.

I have over 20 years experience, but as you know, that's entirely anecdotal, so no need to listen to me!

kub

bubblypop wrote: »

I have over 20 years experience, but as you know, that's entirely anecdotal, so no need to listen to me!

20 years of experience, in what sector, if you don't mind me asking?

I am listening to you as I am replying to your posts.

WhyTheFace

Lads, calm it down!

I guess for me the likes of PW which is around 500e per annum is a bit steep. I appreciate there are cheaper options available but over the course of 2-3 years it would add up. I live in a two bed apt on my own and besides my TV and laptop I have very little of value which reamin in my apt when i am not there. I presume thiefs no longer see value in clothes anymore?!

I think I will go for the Ring option along with a security camera and the dummy alarm box I mentioned in a previous post.

kub

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Lads, calm it down!

I guess for me the likes of PW which is around 500e per annum is a bit steep. I appreciate there are cheaper options available but over the course of 2-3 years it would add up. I live in a two bed apt on my own and besides my TV and laptop I have very little of value which reamin in my apt when i am not there. I presume thiefs no longer see value in clothes anymore?!

I think I will go for the Ring option along with a security camera and the dummy alarm box I mentioned in a previous post.

Sorry if my posts made it seem i was in anyway angry with you, not at all. I just rather that genuine posters like yourself are given facts rather than anything else.


Yes that PW option would certainly add up overtime, when you say Ring, do you mean their door bell solution ?

WhyTheFace

kub wrote: »

Sorry if my posts made it seem i was in anyway angry with you, not at all. I just rather that genuine posters like yourself are given facts rather than anything else.


Yes that PW option would certainly add up overtime, when you say Ring, do you mean their door bell solution ?

Hi Kub,

This is the product I am looking at. My complex is very secure in general, only for my living room window which looks out onto the water which is a public walk way.

https://eu.ring.com/products/alarm-security-5-piece-kit?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=IE_English_Shopping_Brand_All_PLA_Low_Google_CPC&utm_content=&utm_term=4K11D9-0EU0&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqdP9BRDVARIsAGSZ8AkLx9iaq3EFev7VrictwMf3wFH9JASK4eH6uBONKHgN47ab54Z_FysaAuhQEALw_wcB

All security will be focused on this one balcony door with windows either side. 9 window panes in total which a thief has attempted to pop out with a screwdriver.

rlady

Hello, of course, the thief will try to enter buildings that do not have an alarm. I think the best security system is one that will notify your phone when there is any threat.

saabsaab

I read that the top items that put the burglar off are in order



CCTV camera
Dogs barking
Strong Doors
TV left on
Locks on windows

Sleeper12

bubblypop wrote:

Personally I think phonewatch is a waste of money.

I'm in dozens of different homes every week. For the most part OAPs are phone watches biggest clients. Very few under 60 years of age would have it.

I agree. I think it is a waste of money. Regular alarm is as big of a deterrent as phone watch

kub

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm in dozens of different homes every week. For the most part OAPs are phone watches biggest clients. Very few under 60 years of age would have it.

I agree. I think it is a waste of money. Regular alarm is as big of a deterrent as phone watch

You are correct, that age profile would be their biggest clientele and their target audience as they in all probability have the most disposal income as a sector of society with their families reared and mortgages paid off etc.


They are also less likely to ask difficult questions

kub

saabsaab wrote: »

I read that the top items that put the burglar off are in order



CCTV camera
Dogs barking
Strong Doors
TV left on
Locks on windows

Can i ask you please, where did you read that ?

kub

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Hi Kub,

This is the product I am looking at. My complex is very secure in general, only for my living room window which looks out onto the water which is a public walk way.

https://eu.ring.com/products/alarm-security-5-piece-kit?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=IE_English_Shopping_Brand_All_PLA_Low_Google_CPC&utm_content=&utm_term=4K11D9-0EU0&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqdP9BRDVARIsAGSZ8AkLx9iaq3EFev7VrictwMf3wFH9JASK4eH6uBONKHgN47ab54Z_FysaAuhQEALw_wcB

All security will be focused on this one balcony door with windows either side. 9 window panes in total which a thief has attempted to pop out with a screwdriver.

Thank you for that.


I have gone right through that link and i do not see any reference at all to a necessary EU standard which is a recognised benchmark in our sector, namely EN 50131.
Therefore unfortunately that system may not be recognised by your insurer if the worst thing ever occurred

saabsaab

kub wrote: »

Can i ask you please, where did you read that ?

Some uk website about a survey of ex burglars..

kub

saabsaab wrote: »

Some uk website about a survey of ex burglars..

While I agree with everything as listed, I have to wonder is it a case of alarms going without saying.


It is hard to beat a vicious dog

WhyTheFace

Can I ask a genuine question...

While I decide what system to go with I bought a blink mini for 40e which looks right down on the area of concern.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/introducing-blink-mini-compact-indoor-plug-in-smart-security-camera-1080-hd-video-motion-detection-works-with-alexa/dp/B07X37DT9M?ref_=ast_sto_dp


When it detects motion outside my window it will record 20-30 seconds of video and send it to me via the app on my phone. I can press a button on the app and talk through the speaker on the camera to whoever is in my apt.

What is the difference between me seeing someone in my apt and calling the cops and a monitored security system provider?

Granted, I may not always have my phone to hand but unfortunately I almost always do!

A monitored alarm system, like phonewatch, do not live stream footage from your home.
If you see someone in your house you can ring gardai immediately & tell them there is an intruder in your house at that time.

kub

bubblypop wrote: »

A monitored alarm system, like phonewatch, do not live stream footage from your home.
If you see someone in your house you can ring gardai immediately & tell them there is an intruder in your house at that time.

They do live stream, they use PIR cameras.
Their control room.staff can therefore see into peoples homes.

kub

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Can I ask a genuine question...

While I decide what system to go with I bought a blink mini for 40e which looks right down on the area of concern.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/introducing-blink-mini-compact-indoor-plug-in-smart-security-camera-1080-hd-video-motion-detection-works-with-alexa/dp/B07X37DT9M?ref_=ast_sto_dp


When it detects motion outside my window it will record 20-30 seconds of video and send it to me via the app on my phone. I can press a button on the app and talk through the speaker on the camera to whoever is in my apt.

What is the difference between me seeing someone in my apt and calling the cops and a monitored security system provider?

Granted, I may not always have my phone to hand but unfortunately I almost always do!

In an ideal world that is a perfect solution.

But if you do not have an appropriate signal level on your phone at that particular time, then you may not be able to receive the footage to your phone.

The camera could get blocked by someone

The electricity in your home could be off for whatever reason.

As I said, ideal world yes.

Yourmama

WhyTheFace wrote:

When it detects motion outside my window it will record 20-30 seconds of video and send it to me via the app on my phone. I can press a button on the app and talk through the speaker on the camera to whoever is in my apt.

Person I know house was burgled not so long time ago. The first thing they did after getting in was to cut off internet, and the video hasn't uploaded to cloud. Luckily notification of movement went through in time so the person rang neighbours who disturbed burglars. Good neighbor is your best friend.

tiredcity

OP, have the ring alarm and cam for over a year now as took the chance to get it before it was officially released here. Very satisfied in that period, works well and if you do want to be alerted there's now a subscription option (think approx 100e/month) that will notify keyholders and upload any video via 3g/4g so doesn't matter if they disconnect the wifi. The devices all have battery backup. Customer service excellent if you have any issues. Not an ad but do find them very good!

machiavellianme

Get an ajax alarm. They're professional grade but simple enough to install DIY. You can use it unmonitored or you can pay home secure or others to monitor it for you down the line. This forum has lots of threads on Ajax (as does the home automation one).

tiredcity

Sorry 100e/year �� Half asleep!

kub

tiredcity wrote: »

OP, have the ring alarm and cam for over a year now as took the chance to get it before it was officially released here. Very satisfied in that period, works well and if you do want to be alerted there's now a subscription option (think approx 100e/month) that will notify keyholders and upload any video via 3g/4g so doesn't matter if they disconnect the wifi. The devices all have battery backup. Customer service excellent if you have any issues. Not an ad but do find them very good!

I think that GSM back up to Wifi is essential, any alarm system that is fitted to the appropriate standard will continue to operate in the event of a power cut, an internet router will not.


Therefore that false economy of relying solely on notifications from Wifi/ Lan becomes very blatant all of a sudden.

grogi

kub wrote: »

I think that GSM back up to Wifi is essential, any alarm system that is fitted to the appropriate standard will continue to operate in the event of a power cut, an internet router will not.

You need to design in line with the security risks.

Power cuts are extremely rare and probability of an intruder going after your house the moment blackout happens are minimal. Response teams will be much busier during blackouts as well, so the value of said notification massively reduces.

If you however consider GSM backup because you're afraid of an intruder that will orchestrate a power cut to your property, you really have bigger issues and an alarm off amazon is not the solution.

NaFirinne

What I have done is I have an alarm system that sends a message to the phone if activated.

I have a staffy that barks if anyone comes close to the house or even touches the car outside. Great watchdog at night actually. The Dog is normally friendly but at night time or if someone is wearing a huddy, helmet or covering there face it doesn't like it at all.

Also we have setup a neighbourhood whatsapp group. So in the event of one of our alarms triggering or some unusual activitiy occuring we can message the group and one of the neighbours will check in on the house.

We also have CCTV setup to check footage after an event.

kub

grogi wrote: »

You need to design in line with the security risks.

Power cuts are extremely rare and probability of an intruder going after your house the moment blackout happens are minimal. Response teams will be much busier during blackouts as well, so the value of said notification massively reduces.

If you however consider GSM backup because you're afraid of an intruder that will orchestrate a power cut to your property, you really have bigger issues and an alarm off amazon is not the solution.

Power cuts in a modern house can be done very easily by accessing the typical external meter box cabinet.

Neverlone the adjoining phone line cabinet.

The bottom line is, you get what you pay for.

WhyTheFace

kub wrote: »

Power cuts in a modern house can be done very easily by accessing the typical external meter box cabinet.

Neverlone the adjoining phone line cabinet.

The bottom line is, you get what you pay for.

Hi Kub, yes fully agree, like everything you get what you pay for.

I guess it's a trade off. I live on my own in a 2 bed apt. When I'm not there all that's of value is a TV, basic laptop and a wireless speaker.

It would be a totally different story if it was a 3-4 bed family home with two cars in the drive.

I haven't heard of any other issues in the complex. I think it is more opportunistic thiefs walking by as opposed to more serious ones.

NIMAN

kub wrote: »

In an ideal world that is a perfect solution.

But if you do not have an appropriate signal level on your phone at that particular time, then you may not be able to receive the footage to your phone.

The camera could get blocked by someone

The electricity in your home could be off for whatever reason.

As I said, ideal world yes.

I have a 2 camera Arlo system which activates in a similar way, but the issue I have and which kind of negates the usefulness of it is that when a person walks past the camera and it activates a few seconds later, the person is gone, out of sight. Even if you increase the sensitivity of it, someone walking at normal speed will be past the camera before it starts recording.

micosoft

Darc19 wrote: »

LOL, gardai will take an hour to get to the house.

A standard alarm that sends notifications to your phone is all you need

An hour? Gardai policy is not to respond to alarms unless "eyes" are put on the burglar i.e. a video feed confirms. They have better things to be doing than responding to nibbles the cat trying to get in for their whiskers.

Honestly unless you have serious valuables get the cheapest alarm in order to get the discount for your insurance and then use the home insurance to pay in the fairly unlikely event you do get robbed.

That said Covid has had a devastating impact on the Burglary sector what with people being home all the time.

kub

micosoft wrote: »

An hour? Gardai policy is not to respond to alarms unless "eyes" are put on the burglar i.e. a video feed confirms. They have better things to be doing than responding to nibbles the cat trying to get in for their whiskers.

Honestly unless you have serious valuables get the cheapest alarm in order to get the discount for your insurance and then use the home insurance to pay in the fairly unlikely event you do get robbed.

That said Covid has had a devastating impact on the Burglary sector what with people being home all the time.

You are obviously not familiar with the Garda alarm response criteria publication.
Gardai will of course always respond to calls, in is in black and white on this publication that people in the security business are not to discuss the response time etc.

But the point of the matter is, in order for an Intruder Alarm activation to get Garda response, in normal circumstances, then the system has to comply and be certified to EN50131 and has verification technology installed.


Houses are also broken into when people are at home.


As regards a discount from your insurer, again the system has to comply with EN50131, in order for it to continue to comply with that standard then it has to be serviced twice a year by a PSA licensed Intruder Alarm Company.

machiavellianme

micosoft wrote: »

An hour? Gardai policy is not to respond to alarms unless "eyes" are put on the burglar i.e. a video feed confirms. They have better things to be doing than responding to nibbles the cat trying to get in for their whiskers.

Honestly unless you have serious valuables get the cheapest alarm in order to get the discount for your insurance and then use the home insurance to pay in the fairly unlikely event you do get robbed.

That said Covid has had a devastating impact on the Burglary sector what with people being home all the time.

Never claim that discount. Insurance companies will find any way out of paying that they can.
If you are burgled the one time you didn't set the alarm, they'll use this to renege on a payout. For the sake of a miniscule discount on the premium, isn't it better to have piece of mind for full coverage without involving any alarms being set.

Ladyinthedark

I recently got a great deal to test out a new monitoring system no upfront payment and there bringing cameras in shortly with voice over if anyone comes near my property can’t wait to have it it installed if anyone want me me to refer them
I will cause I can get a month monitoring free lol 😂

kub

Ladyinthedark wrote: »

I recently got a great deal to test out a new monitoring system no upfront payment and there bringing cameras in shortly with voice over if anyone comes near my property can’t wait to have it it installed if anyone want me me to refer them
I will cause I can get a month monitoring free lol ��

Yes those cameras are great, we installed some around a premises last week, when the camera recognises a human, it announces an audible message and flashes .





Free is great though