Is it time for the British to apologise for the occupation of Ireland?

whisky_galore

GarIT wrote: »

Before invasion/colonisation we had a high king who ruled all of Ireland but power was delegated to lesser kings under him.

Never united as a single entity. Just groups running around raiding and clattering the shít out of each other.
Couldn't deal with a foreign power coming in as many would be cozying up to that power as fighting it just to get one over on their enemies.

GarIT

imme wrote: »

That is fairy story stuff. There were living in Ireland but there was no unified Ireland.

If someone asks what you want for Christmas ask for a history book.

You lose an argument as soon as you get nasty and start throwing around personal insults.

Some of them were fictional, it doesn't go back to 1800BC as some claim but look under the historical tab https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Kings_of_Ireland

imme

GarIT wrote: »

You lose an argument as soon as you get nasty and start throwing around personal insults.

Yeah.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

We should ask Scandinavians to pay reparations for the actions of Vikings too...

Wait until Wales ask for the outstanding copyright owed on St. Patrick's Day given we kidnapped the young man from there.

blanch152

GarIT wrote: »

Before invasion/colonisation we had a high king who ruled all of Ireland but power was delegated to lesser kings under him.

In which dream did this take place?

We had people who styled themselves as High Kings of Ireland but they didn't even know what Ireland was and how far it extended yet alone rule over it.

IAMAMORON

I wouldn't know where to start here, but first things first.

At what point can you identify the occupation of Ireland? Who should be apologizing first, the Brits, the Vikings, the Normans or the ancient Druids? It is a fair question.

For the record I don't want an apology, I couldn't be positive that I warrant or deserve one.

But who apologizes and for what exactly?

As a final point I find comtemporary persons looking to receive apologies from other contemporary persons really essentially patronising. We have no notion of what our forefathers went through and as such are in no position to patronise their existence looking to receive an apology over it? Total phucking nonsense and actually highly disrespectful to our forefathers, with the greatest of respect to them.

atilladehun

Absolutely not.

As mentioned above we should learn from the past not try to live in it. Planning our present or future based on notions of some sort of previous unity at some arbitrary moment or damage done to that unity at another arbitrary moment is more than nonsense, it can be dangerous.

We, the group of humans living here should learn about what humans have done to other humans in the past. We should use that information to guide ourselves to make a better future.

If I were to ask anything of the Brits it would be to expand their teaching of history and geography in school* to include the perspective of the places they invaded and that of those who moved to England. Who moved to England over the centuries, why, what did they leave behind, what did the find when they arrived.

*And other cultural institutions such as the BBC and museums.

GarIT

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I wouldn't know where to start here, but first things first.

At what point can you identify the occupation of Ireland? Who should be apologizing first, the Brits, the Vikings, the Normans or the ancient Druids? It is a fair question.

For the record I don't want an apology, I couldn't be positive that I warrant or deserve one.

But who apologizes and for what exactly?

As a final point I find comtemporary persons looking to receive apologies from other contemporary persons really essentially patronising. We have no notion of what our forefathers went through and as such are in no position to patronise their existence looking to receive an apology over it? Total phucking nonsense and actually highly disrespectful to our forefathers, with the greatest of respect to them.

The British government for their envolvement in prolonging the troubles and funding terrorism on this island. For The civil rights violations and discrimination against the native Irish.

And for still refusing to call us Ireland and saying the Republic of Ireland whenever they get a chance which we have clarified isn't our name and not something we are ok with being called.

Fritzbox

GarIT wrote: »

And for still refusing to call us Ireland and saying the Republic of Ireland whenever they get a chance which we have clarified isn't our name and not something we are ok with being called.

Maybe they're confusing the country for the football team?

Still, it's better than being called "Southern Ireland", or worse "Éire".

IAMAMORON

GarIT wrote: »

The British government for their envolvement in prolonging the troubles and funding terrorism on this island. For The civil rights violations and discrimination against the native Irish.

And for still refusing to call us Ireland and saying the Republic of Ireland whenever they get a chance which we have clarified isn't our name and not something we are ok with being called.

Ok grand, I see where you are coming from.

To be fair to the British government they still occupy 6 counties of this island and will continue to be doing so for the time being?

They won't be apologizing either , so you can get as outraged by that as you like.

Peace citizen.

biko

Thread needs poll

Jot me down for "no".

GarIT

Fritzbox wrote: »

Maybe they're confusing the country for the football team?

Still, it's better than being called "Southern Ireland", or worse "Éire".

They aren't confusing us with the football team. I've been at EU meetings where they have been interrupted speaking to be asked by the chair to call us Ireland and they will immediately resume their speech with "As I was saying the border with the Republic of Ireland....."

Actually Éire is the official name of the country in Irish, but we have also asked not to be called that for some reason.

Republic or Ireland is just used to discriminate against us and to get digs in by refusing to recognise us as Ireland. But then some of our own use it so I don't even know what's going on.

GarIT

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Ok grand, I see where you are coming from.

To be fair to the British government they still occupy 6 counties of this island and will continue to be doing so for the time being?

They won't be apologizing either , so you can get as outraged by that as you like.

Peace citizen.

Yeah I can't see it happening but it would be nice if they would at least charge their soldiers that have committed war crimes.

IAMAMORON

GarIT wrote: »

Yeah I can't see it happening but it would be nice if they would at least charge their soldiers that have committed war crimes.

Mate, I haven't got all night either.

Lots of crap went down and the fact remains that they will not be apologizing for the half of it.

They will not be prosecuting soldiers either, they simply would prefer not to and whilst psychos definitely join armies it takes two ideologies to fight a war.

As I said I haven't all night, but they will never be apologizing for the half of what went on. I would suggest that you get over it, your own life is too short and I would compel you to not waste it any further chasing wild geese , especially with the Brits, you'll not get anywhere.

GarIT

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Mate, I haven't got all night either.

Lots of crap went down and the fact remains that they will not be apologizing for the half of it.

They will not be prosecuting soldiers either, they simply would prefer not to and whilst psychos definitely join armies it takes two ideologies to fight a war.

As I said I haven't all night, but they will never be apologizing for the half of what went on. I would suggest that you get over it, your own life is too short and I would compel you to not waste it any further chasing wild geese , especially with the Brits, you'll not get anywhere.

I don't understand all this get over it stuff. You're acting like this is something I focus my life on. I didn't really think about it until I saw this thread and probably won't think about it again for another 800 years.

Kaybaykwah

Ireland should atone and pay reparations to England for the more sophisticated use of the English language by its writers over the past two centuries. Shameful colonisation in my opinion. Damned Irish.

MontgomeryClift

Never apologise.

Only a weak, spiteful nation would ask for such an apology, and only a craven, defeated one would give it.

IAMAMORON

GarIT wrote: »

I don't understand all this get over it stuff. You're acting like this is something I focus my life on. I didn't really think about it until I saw this thread and probably won't think about it again for another 800 years.

As I said, you should maybe just get over it so .

banie01

Do we chase the French for that apology too?
As the Normans were the Rulers of England at the time McMurrogh invited them in?
Surely then Leinster owe the rest of us an apology too?
Do we blame the South East and the Pale for being the enablers and expect an apology from them?

Chasing an apology from successor institutions is a pointless exercise and quite futile really.
From a legislative basis, we were the UK from 1801 thro to 1922.
So given the Brits rarely apologise to their own, they won't apologise to us.

I'd be far happier if the UK curriculum actually thought their history and the impact of empire.
It was not the moral light of the world that the Victorians tried to paint themselves as.
It was a rapacious, voracious and thieving exercise in wealth transfer that would leave even the Spaniards blush.

Think of all those things we know the Brits did, things we have documented proof of and then think on this.
In 1947 the Raj burned all records that could paint the UK in a poor light before the hand over of India.
Then when the foreign office realised how that made the benevolent Brits look, they undertook operation legacy as the planned their withdrawal from empire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Legacy

Fúck apology expecting an apology from the Brits makes zero sense.
We are an independent and sovereign state, chasing an apology from them?
Its like asking the grandchildren of an abusive boyfriend you left, to apologise to the grandkids that you had with someone else.

As a nation, hold them to account, teach them the lessons of their brutal past in the hope they don't try to repeat it.
But don't expect or seek an apology.

If we do seek one, do we then also hold all children accountable for the sins of their forefathers?

GarIT

IAMAMORON wrote: »

As I said, you should maybe just get over it so .

Or maybe I can have an opinion that they should and that not be a problem.

riffmongous

Chips Lovell wrote: »

For a start, I don't think "occupation" is the correct term for it, nor indeed "colonisation", which is another term bandied around. British presence in Ireland long pre-dated either concept, at least in the modern understanding of each.

What was it then? British rule is probably the best description. It has more similarities with Danish rule over Norway or Swedish (and then Russian) rule over Finland. It's no coincidence that Irish independence arrived at the end of an approximately 100 year period that witnessed the rise of nationalism as a political force and the decline of European, multi-ethnic empires.

Ah now, the Plantations are the definition of colonisation

Galwayguy35

After watching the programme on RTE last night about the butchery that went on in Croke Park by the Tans I think thats something they should apologise for.

Dan Breen was right when he said he was only sorry he didn't get the chance to kill more of them.

RWCNT

landofthetree wrote: »

If you live their voluntarily you are backing the colonisation project.

Of course I'm here voluntarily, I wasn't kidnapped.

Not sure what point you think you're making.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Tordelback wrote: »

Presumably the French will then have to apologize to the English for the Norman conquest, and the Scandinavians to pretty much everyone for the entire 9th and 10th Centuries. And heaven help the Italians, they'll never be done with the mi dispiaces.

Or we could just suggest everyone reflect on all the historical murdering and thievery that their celebrated national identities are actually based on before they puff up their chests, and focus on solving the current issues between our states instead.

The Norman Conquest had little to do with most of France. The Normans were descendents of Viking settlers.

flanna01

What a load of old tosh......!

The Brits would love to off load the North, be singing in the streets.... (Remember Dev was offered the six counties back, and gracefully declined)

Like the South really needs another endless black hole to throw money in we haven't.....

Be careful what you wish for.

banie01

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

After watching the programme on RTE last night about the butchery that went on in Croke Park by the Tans I think thats something they should apologise for.

Dan Breen was right when he said he was only sorry he didn't get the chance to kill more of them.

There was butchery, there was oppression and there was terror.
What should be remembered too, particularly about bloody Sunday.
Is that at its base level, it was a British unit firing upon its own people.
It was an attack by Crown forces upon what were at the time civilian crown subjects.
While they always looked at the Irish as untermensch...
The actions of that day are the same as British units driving into the pitch at Ibrox, Anfield or any other stadium and firing into a crowd of British citizens.
Imagine how that would go over in a UK history or civics class.

The actions of the Brits should never be forgotten.
They have shaped our people, our country and our history often for the worst.
Their actions around Brexit and their arrogant superiority and disregard of international law.
That those actions come as a surprise to many in the UK, should really be taken as a sign of how much they have to learn about the mark of Empire on the world.

banie01

riffmongous wrote: »

Ah now, the Plantations are the definition of colonisation

Very true, the plantations were the Archetype.

GarIT

GarIT wrote: »

There's a funny skit about British museums and countries asking for the stuff back. "How do they know it's stolen?" "We put a plaque below it telling you when and where we stole it". The countries ask for the stuff back and Britain says "No, we're still looking at it"

I guess it loses a lot of humour in the retelling.

gozunda

Chips Lovell wrote: »

For a start, I don't think "occupation" is the correct term for it, nor indeed "colonisation", which is another term bandied around. British presence in Ireland long pre-dated either concept, at least in the modern understanding of each.

What was it then? British rule is probably the best description. It has more similarities with Danish rule over Norway or Swedish (and then Russian) rule over Finland. It's no coincidence that Irish independence arrived at the end of an approximately 100 year period that witnessed the rise of nationalism as a political force and the decline of European, multi-ethnic empires.

Not to be bandying around words. It was called the Plantation of Ireland. A process whereby land owners and occupiers here were forcibly removed and settlers from parts of England, Scotland etc were 'granted' those lands for their role in the genocide and defeat of the those already living here.

Even the allegedly savage Vikings didn't get around to wholesale seizure of an entire country or even the attempted total eradication of the people they encountered. Sure they killed raped and pillaged but at least they had to decency not to deny or play wordsies about it ...

banie01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I guess it loses a lot of humour in the retelling.

I'd love to say I thought of this
But credit where it's due.

I saw it on twitter!

What seems British but isnt?
The contents of the British Museum!