Biden/Harris Presidency Discussion Thread

Manic Moran

breezy1985 wrote: »

The rail system in the US and Canada is shocking bad by European standards. I assume it's down to the motor lobby

Why is Europe so absurdly backward compared to the U.S. in rail freight transport

There is no rail system on the planet as good as the US rail system at what it does. It's one of the least-subsidised forms of transport in the country, and it moves about ten times as much freight (ton-miles) per person as EU trains do, and thirty times as much as the Japanese rail network.

You are presumably only looking at passenger train figures. To quote from the article linked above:
"Europe never measured the effectiveness of its well-engineered railway system by the volume of freight it hauled, but by the number of passengers it could move."
To this, yes, there is an influence of the motor lobby from the 1940s or so. The suburbs were created for the car, creating spread-out living areas which are not conducive to rail networks. It's why most US commuter, metro and light rail systems are found in older, more-established cities, where population density pre-dates the car. Even at that, it's not that awful.

US intercity and commuter rail (ie not counting trams, subways, and the like) 19bn passenger-miles in 2019, the EU ran 416bn passenger-km in the same period, about 257bn passenger-miles. (Also excluding metro, light rail, etc) That works out as about 344miles/person travelled by rail in the EU to 58miles/person, so six times better than the US.

If all you care about is how to get from A to B, then yes, the US rail system can be disappointing in some respects (Then again, if you think there's no use of heavy rail, go sit in Penn Station for a bit. At 600,000 passengers a day, it's not too bad considering the busiest station in Europe (Gare du Nord) runs 700,000.).

However, if you have 1.8bn tons of freight to move thousands of miles each year, as US railroads do (You can figure out how many tens of millions of trucks it would take to carry that), no land system in the world compares to the North American rail network in capacity, cost or efficiency.
This is one train. Nothing in Europe can compare.

AbusesToilets

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Obviously labour is cheaper, but hasn't China developed quite a lot of high speed rail in recent years? It might be worth the US looking to, dare I say it, emulate.

Lack of worker protections and environmental regulations helps too I imagine.

Brian?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why is Europe so absurdly backward compared to the U.S. in rail freight transport

There is no rail system on the planet as good as the US rail system at what it does. It's one of the least-subsidised forms of transport in the country, and it moves about ten times as much freight (ton-miles) per person as EU trains do, and thirty times as much as the Japanese rail network.

You are presumably only looking at passenger train figures. To quote from the article linked above:
"Europe never measured the effectiveness of its well-engineered railway system by the volume of freight it hauled, but by the number of passengers it could move."
To this, yes, there is an influence of the motor lobby from the 1940s or so. The suburbs were created for the car, creating spread-out living areas which are not conducive to rail networks. It's why most US commuter, metro and light rail systems are found in older, more-established cities, where population density pre-dates the car. Even at that, it's not that awful.

US intercity and commuter rail (ie not counting trams, subways, and the like) 19bn passenger-miles in 2019, the EU ran 416bn passenger-km in the same period, about 257bn passenger-miles. (Also excluding metro, light rail, etc) That works out as about 344miles/person travelled by rail in the EU to 58miles/person, so six times better than the US.

If all you care about is how to get from A to B, then yes, the US rail system can be disappointing in some respects (Then again, if you think there's no use of heavy rail, go sit in Penn Station for a bit. At 600,000 passengers a day, it's not too bad considering the busiest station in Europe (Gare du Nord) runs 700,000.).

However, if you have 1.8bn tons of freight to move thousands of miles each year, as US railroads do (You can figure out how many tens of millions of trucks it would take to carry that), no land system in the world compares to the North American rail network in capacity, cost or efficiency.

Informative. The most impressive trains I’ve ever seen are US freight trains. Especially in northern Arizona heading towards New Mexico. The trains seemed to go on forever.

But there is also a ludicrous side to the rail system outside the east coast. No rail line connects to Phoenix.

Manic Moran

Brian? wrote: »

Informative. The most impressive trains I’ve ever seen are US freight trains. Especially in northern Arizona heading towards New Mexico. The trains seemed to go on forever.

But there is also a ludicrous side to the rail system outside the east coast. No rail line connects to Phoenix.

Not as if you can't get to Phoenix by Amtrak at all. They run a bus connector service from Maricopa Station to downtown Phoenix. It's about 35 miles, 50-minutes.

Brian?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not as if you can't get to Phoenix by Amtrak at all. They run a bus connector service from Maricopa Station to downtown Phoenix. It's about 35 miles, 50-minutes.

A bus connection would be grand for a small city. But the Phoenix metro population is a most 5 million.

5 million people who's only public transport option is the bus.

Manic Moran

Brian? wrote: »

A bus connection would be grand for a small city. But the Phoenix metro population is a most 5 million.

5 million people who's only public transport option is the bus.

I strongly doubt that train ridership figures for Phoenix will dramatically increase because they rerouted six trains a week to Los Angeles, and three trains a week each to Chicago and New Orleans directly into a city instead of a bus link.

In the meantime, Sky Harbor is a major hub for SouthWest and American, with a throughput of over 40 million passengers a year with cheap and quick flights anywhere. Even if they doubled, tripled the train service to Phoenix, you really think it'll have a notable effect?

For the record, there is a light rail line in Phoenix, it just doesn't go to Maricopa station.

Brussels Sprout

Manic Moran wrote: »

In the meantime, Sky Harbor is a major hub for SouthWest and American, with a throughput of over 40 million passengers a year with cheap and quick flights anywhere. Even if they doubled, tripled the train service to Phoenix, you really think it'll have a notable effect?

Cheap in terms of ticket prices but extremely expensive in terms of the carbon emissions. That bill will need to be settled, one way or the other, faster than people might think.

Clearly, given the large numbers and likely potential destinations, it would be impractical for all of those people to catch a train instead, but right now it isn't even an option, for any of them.

Brian?

Manic Moran wrote: »

I strongly doubt that train ridership figures for Phoenix will dramatically increase because they rerouted six trains a week to Los Angeles, and three trains a week each to Chicago and New Orleans directly into a city instead of a bus link.

In the meantime, Sky Harbor is a major hub for SouthWest and American, with a throughput of over 40 million passengers a year with cheap and quick flights anywhere. Even if they doubled, tripled the train service to Phoenix, you really think it'll have a notable effect?

For the record, there is a light rail line in Phoenix, it just doesn't go to Maricopa station.

The light rail in Phoenix is a running joke. It goes from Glendale to Gilbert via Tempe. It essentially brings people to Arizona State. One line.

My point was, and is, that a city of 5 million people was built and rail infrastructure was never really considered. It’s ridiculous.

At this stage the whole city is designed around cats so it’s too late. It’s very rare to see a city planned like Phoenix(more accurately the Valley of the Sun). Yet no one thought a train was a good thing sea. Crazy

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

The light rail in Phoenix is a running joke. It goes from Glendale to Gilbert via Tempe. It essentially brings people to Arizona State. One line.

My point was, and is, that a city of 5 million people was built and rail infrastructure was never really considered. It’s ridiculous.

At this stage the whole city is designed around cats so it’s too late. It’s very rare to see a city planned like Phoenix(more accurately the Valley of the Sun). Yet no one thought a train was a good thing sea. Crazy

In fairness Brian, as King of the Hill put it, Phoenix is a testament to human hubris. Shouldn't exist at all. Awful city imo.

Manic Moran

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Cheap in terms of ticket prices but extremely expensive in terms of the carbon emissions. That bill will need to be settled, one way or the other, faster than people might think.

Clearly, given the large numbers and likely potential destinations, it would be impractical for all of those people to catch a train instead, but right now it isn't even an option, for any of them.

Sure it is. Go to the Amtrak website, get a ticket from "Phoenix" to ... oh,.. "Houston."

Face it, if you're taking an intercity train in the American West, cost and speed are not particularly high on your priority list. If it takes 21.5 hours to get from where I am to Phoenix (well, plus a half-hour for me to get to the station from my home) with a bus transfer vs 20 hours because the train drops you right downtown, the detour isn't a massive dent in your travel schedule.

I'm not saying it isn't nice to have a direct connection, but I am saying the lack of one really isn't a big deal for the residents of Phoenix.

Now, things do change a little bit if you start talking about high-speed rail. Phoenix-LA is close enough to be a viable alternative to an airplane. Whether there's the demand for it (it would basically be a point-to-point, there's not much in between to stop at) to make it viable is another matter entirely. It may be telling that the two notable HSR projects in the US are in California and Texas, with their population densities. That, however, becomes an entirely different question to "Can I step into a railway car in Phoenix city limits."

Enduro

Brian? wrote: »

At this stage the whole city is designed around cats so it’s too late.

Visions of herds of marauding felines terrorizing the human population...

TomOnBoard

I'm beginning to realise that the Biden/Harris Presidency is governing with some directness and is not willing to allow the torpor that characterised the latter years of the Obama Administration to rear its head while the Dems have the slight edge in the House and Senate.

These folks are forging ahead with their (clearly) coherent and thought-out agenda.. This time, I see them not waiting for the GOP to get on board.. All those trains are moving to Joe's schedule, and roadblocks from neigh-sayers and seditionists are simply gonna be rolled right over!

Roll on the single most important next step- get rid of the filibuster, and get Voting Rights re-enabled through HR1.

Not even 100 days yet, and we already have the outline of an Infrastructure strategy.. Remember Infrastructure Week? The Week that kept on giving! And still produced not an iota of a plan.. A bit like that elusive healthcare plan! Did we ever see sight of that, BTW. I know Kayleigh showed the reporter lady 132 kg of blank sheets, albeit neatly bound.. But a plan?

I don't remember! Anyway, welcome to progressive Government! Amazing what's possible OFF the Golf Course!

Brussels Sprout

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I'm beginning to realise that the Biden/Harris Presidency is governing with some directness and is not willing to allow the torpor that characterised the latter years of the Obama Administration to rear its head while the Dems have the slight edge in the House and Senate.

These folks are forging ahead with their (clearly) coherent and thought-out agenda.. This time, I see them not waiting for the GOP to get on board.. All those trains are moving to Joe's schedule, and roadblocks from neigh-sayers and seditionists are simply gonna be rolled right over!

I have been impressed as well. Clearly Biden learned from what happened to Obama in 2009 when he wasted months trying to reach across the aisle.

Conventional wisdom says that a new President gets just 18 months to govern - since beyond that they are into the mid-terms and then have to worry about re-election after that.

I think it's unlikely that the filibuster will be removed - that means that Biden will only be able to get this Infrastructure bill through this year. After that he'll have to wait until 2022 to use budget reconciliation again so there will be a big drop-off in output - although he can still issue executive orders.

Quin_Dub

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I have been impressed as well. Clearly Biden learned from what happened to Obama in 2009 when he wasted months trying to reach across the aisle.

Conventional wisdom says that a new President gets just 18 months to govern - since beyond that they are into the mid-terms and then have to worry about re-election after that.

I think it's unlikely that the filibuster will be removed - that means that Biden will only be able to get this Infrastructure bill through this year. After that he'll have to wait until 2022 to use budget reconciliation again so there will be a big drop-off in output - although he can still issue executive orders.

The problem with that is that if they don't get the voting legislation through , they'll lose either or both of the House/Senate in 2022.

The recent changes in Georgia are just the beginning of what the GOP will try to push through over the next 12-18 months.

No other piece of legislation matters more than the voting rights bill.

AbusesToilets

Someone needs to take Manchin into a quiet room and lay out the law for him. The longer the Democrats delay in getting rid of the filibuster, the more of their agenda they sacrifice.

Quin_Dub

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Someone needs to take Manchin into a quiet room and lay out the law for him. The longer the Democrats delay in getting rid of the filibuster, the more of their agenda they sacrifice.

They can even just make a small change - Filibuster removed for "Civil Rights" legilation.

The voting rights act clearly meets that standard and given that the filibuster was created to block civil rights laws it would be a nice symmetry.

They can keep if for other stuff , but you can't allow a single GOP senator to block something as important as voting rights.

Brussels Sprout

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Someone needs to take Manchin into a quiet room and lay out the law for him. The longer the Democrats delay in getting rid of the filibuster, the more of their agenda they sacrifice.

The problem is that they have literally zero leverage over him. Donald Trump won West Virginia by Nearly 40%. He can't be primaried as anyone else would lose for sure. It's frankly a miracle that he got elected in that state as a Democrat. He of course knows all this.

He also knows that a lot of people who ordinarily vote Republican make an exception for him. That's probably why he went on Fox News and declared that he would never vote to remove the filibuster. If he voted for that he'd be Public Enemy #1 in the Right-Wing media sphere and his career would be over in 2024.
He'll be 77 then. He probably thinks he has at least one, if not two, more 6 year terms in him. Biden can't even bribe him with a big job since there's no guarantee that he or any other Democrat will be President after the next election.

rock22

Is there any possibility, now that the democrats have the power, that the absolute shame of Guantanamo might be addressed.

i can think of no other western country that shows such disregard for basic human rights as the US continues to do.

duploelabs

rock22 wrote: »

Is there any possibility, now that the democrats have the power, that the absolute shame of Guantanamo might be addressed.

i can think of no other western country that shows such disregard for basic human rights as the US continues to do.

Just done in the last 3 days

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/u-s-shuts-once-secret-guantanamo-prison-unit-moves-prisoners-n1262999

Nody

rock22 wrote: »

Is there any possibility, now that the democrats have the power, that the absolute shame of Guantanamo might be addressed.

i can think of no other western country that shows such disregard for basic human rights as the US continues to do.

Doubt it; it's to convenient to have and to big of a stick to be used as "anti military" to be worth it.

duploelabs

Nody wrote: »

Doubt it; it's to convenient to have and to big of a stick to be used as "anti military" to be worth it.

See above

TomOnBoard

Quin_Dub wrote: »

They can even just make a small change - Filibuster removed for "Civil Rights" legilation.

The voting rights act clearly meets that standard and given that the filibuster was created to block civil rights laws it would be a nice symmetry.

They can keep if for other stuff , but you can't allow a single GOP senator to block something as important as voting rights.

Its a ridiculous parliamentary procedure in the first place and has been abused by both parties ever since the 1960s, when the Southern Dems used it to stall LBJ's Civil Rights agenda. Nowadays, the Senate hardly ever passes major legislation without so-called 'super-majority' approval, which is crazy for a body that was set up to allow for majority rule for all legislation other than specific votes laid out in the Constitution. As for being afraid of invoking the so-called 'nuclear option', learn from Mc Connell who gleefully changed back to using simple majority in order to vote for Neil Gorsuch's SCOTUS nomination, a clear and savage poke in the eye to Democrats, given how Mc Connell had previously stymied Merrick Garland's confirmation in Obama's final year.

Get rid of it completely, I say, save for the circumstances laid out in the Constitution, or at least return it to its occasional usage prior to the 1960s, and deal with HR1 the very next day!

TomOnBoard

duploelabs wrote: »

Just done in the last 3 days

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/u-s-shuts-once-secret-guantanamo-prison-unit-moves-prisoners-n1262999

Not really! The recent decision referred to Camp 7 alone. Those ppl who had been in Camp 7 were simply re-distributed throughout the remainder of the Concentration Camp that is Guantanamo.

AbusesToilets

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The problem is that they have literally zero leverage over him. Donald Trump won West Virginia by Nearly 40%. He can't be primaried as anyone else would lose for sure. It's frankly a miracle that he got elected in that state as a Democrat. He of course knows all this.

He also knows that a lot of people who ordinarily vote Republican make an exception for him. That's probably why he went on Fox News and declared that he would never vote to remove the filibuster. If he voted for that he'd be Public Enemy #1 in the Right-Wing media sphere and his career would be over in 2024.
He'll be 77 then. He probably thinks he has at least one, if not two, more 6 year terms in him. Biden can't even bribe him with a big job since there's no guarantee that he or any other Democrat will be President after the next election.

How much leverage will he have if he blocks their legislative agenda? They need to pass the Voting Rights bill to have a chance in the mid terms and beyond.

rock22

duploelabs wrote: »

Just done in the last 3 days

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/u-s-shuts-once-secret-guantanamo-prison-unit-moves-prisoners-n1262999

Did you read the article you linked to?

They are simply moving prisoners from one building, because it is falling down, into another in the same camp

So Biden is continuing in this thrend of denying human rights.
Should other western countries consider some action against US ?

duploelabs

rock22 wrote: »

Did you read the article you linked to?

They are simply moving prisoners from one building, because it is falling down, into another in the same camp

So Biden is continuing in this thrend of denying human rights.
Should other western countries consider some action against US ?

Still banging on this false equvilency drum?

rock22 wrote: »

Lets look at US then.

What is continuing in Guantanamo is surely worse than anything happening elsewhere in the world. And it has continued during the terms of a past democratic president and so far, during the current one.

All external commentators, while criticising aspects of the Russia elections agree that the result closely match independent opinion polls and therefore find there is not systemic voter fraud. So I think Russia meets the criteria of a democracy, . Unless you can point to evidence of voter fraud.

Brussels Sprout

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How much leverage will he have if he blocks their legislative agenda? They need to pass the Voting Rights bill to have a chance in the mid terms and beyond.

You're not wrong but he doesn't seem to care about that. He's not the only one either:

Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) conceded that the U.S. Senate is dysfunctional, but she thinks that’s a reason not to change the body’s rules for passing legislation.

“When you have a place that’s broken and not working, and many would say that’s the Senate today, I don’t think the solution is to erode the rules,” Sinema told the Wall Street Journal this week. “I think the solution is for senators to change their behavior and begin to work together, which is what the country wants us to do.”

Sinema and Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) are the only two Democrats who have said this year that they oppose changing Senate rules, which require at least 60 of the chamber’s 100 members to vote yes in order to advance most legislation. Sen. Pat Leahy (D-Vt.) has not stated a position this year, but said in 2019 that he was opposed to changing filibuster rules.

link

rock22

duploelabs wrote: »

Still banging on this false equvilency drum?

What??
Do you even read what you post??

I raised the issue of closing Guantanamo and you responded that it had just been done and a link, which contradicted what you said.
Now that you have been called out on it, and not just by me, you post this insult.
What drum am I banging? Equivalency with who??

Please grow up and debate rather than throw incoherent insults.

duploelabs

rock22 wrote: »

What??
Do you even read what you post??

I raised the issue of closing Guantanamo and you responded that it had just been done and a link, which contradicted what you said.
Now that you have been called out on it, and not just by me, you post this insult.
What drum am I banging? Equivalency with who??

Please grow up and debate rather than throw incoherent insults.

If there's an insult in there, please show it. You're banging on about Guantanamo a few pages back as if to say that the USA were the worst perpetrators of human rights in the world, so I highlighted that

Moving on, do you not think that the reduction in size and numbers of Guantanamo is a step in the right direction? Institutions such as that, despite what they are, cannot be shut overnight

rock22

duploelabs wrote: »

If there's an insult in there, please show it. You're banging on about Guantanamo a few pages back as if to say that the USA were the worst perpetrators of human rights in the world, so I highlighted that

Moving on, do you not think that the reduction in size and numbers of Guantanamo is a step in the right direction? Institutions such as that, despite what they are, cannot be shut overnight

"You're banging on". are you telling me that was a compliment?

"to say that the USA were the worst" , where did i say that. I compared it to western democracies. You would agree that it has certainly the worst reputation amongst Western democracies ?.

"cannot be shut overnight". Why?
In any event, prisoners , without trial or even without charge, have been held in Guantanamo camp for 15yr so we are not talking about 'overnight'.