Biden/Harris Presidency Discussion Thread

rock22

duploelabs wrote: »

You've heard of Cuba right?

Exactly, You are making my point for me.

Russia is now doing what US did in the Cuban Missile crisis. US would not tolerate a belligerent enemy at there door. Why Are people surprised when Russia feels the same way?

duploelabs

rock22 wrote: »

Exactly, You are making my point for me.

Russia is now doing what US did in the Cuban Missile crisis. US would not tolerate a belligerent enemy at there door. Why Are people surprised when Russia feels the same way?

The geopolitical map is a lot more different. Russia have invaded Ukraine and Crimea, and have set up many other proxy wars in US allied states on their border, they also have established a criminal network around the world that report directly to the head of state, their information warfare is light years ahead of any other state, the same cannot be said about the USA

rock22

duploelabs wrote: »

The geopolitical map is a lot more different. Russia have invaded Ukraine and Crimea, and have set up many other proxy wars in US allied states on their border, they also have established a criminal network around the world that report directly to the head of state, their information warfare is light years ahead of any other state, the same cannot be said about the USA

If you really believe that the US has not a similar network and the same information warfare then I am afraid you are deluding yourself.

My point, the west had a chance to bring Russia on side with Gorbachev. Bush himself has said they should have done more. Glasnost made clear that the average Russian lived in fear of an US attack during the cold war , while we were told we were in danger of attack from USSR. It suited many governments to have everyone living in a state of fear during the cold war. . Right now , Russians are again living in fear of a NATO attack and for that reason are happy to have a PUTIN type character in charge.

So long as the west, and in particular the US, demonise Russia then Putin can only get stronger. To be honest, I expected a more nuanced position from Biden.

Water John

It is quite possible that Putin is in a vulnerable position and Biden may know this. I suspect he knows a lot more than the rest of us anyway. That doesn't mean I give him free licence.

eire4

Reality is when it comes to foreign policy the US is a bad actor on the world stage. They ate not the good guys. They may not have an empire in the old sense but they very much operate like an empire. Most of Central and South America for instance do as told or else. They bring in wealthy and powerful elites from all over the Americas and teach them how to control their countries at the "school of the Americas" now at Fort Benning in Georgia. Most recently the Honduran president Manual Zelaya was overthrown by an America backed coup lead by school of the americas graduate General Vasquez. They used to have their puppet government in the middle east with Mossadegh until he was overthrown then they got in bed with the brutal Saudi dictatorship. Suahrto in Indonesian and numerous dictators in Africa as well as supporting Apartheid South Africa I could go on at length. But the picture is always the same either the local government does what the US wants of they install a nasty authoritarian one that will.

AbusesToilets

eire4 wrote: »

Reality is when it comes to foreign policy the US is a bad actor on the world stage. They ate not the good guys. They may not have an empire in the old sense but they very much operate like an empire. Most of Central and South America for instance do as told or else. They bring in wealthy and powerful elites from all over the Americas and teach them how to control their countries at the "school of the Americas" now at Fort Benning in Georgia. Most recently the Honduran president Manual Zelaya was overthrown by an America backed coup lead by school of the americas graduate General Vasquez. They used to have their puppet government in the middle east with Mossadegh until he was overthrown then they got in bed with the brutal Saudi dictatorship. Suahrto in Indonesian and numerous dictators in Africa as well as supporting Apartheid South Africa I could go on at length. But the picture is always the same either the local government does what the US wants of they install a nasty authoritarian one that will.

Given your complete ignorance with respect to Mossadegh and his ousting, I think one can safely dismiss the rest of your "analysis"

rock22

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Given your complete ignorance with respect to Mossadegh and his ousting, I think one can safely dismiss the rest of your "analysis"

The US has admitted its' role in the coup in Iran which removed Mossadegh.
The list of US intervention in central america is long and sinister.

eire4

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Given your complete ignorance with respect to Mossadegh and his ousting, I think one can safely dismiss the rest of your "analysis"

Ah yes the US had nothing to do with Massadegh's ousting. Sure thing expect it is not exactly news that they were involved (along with the British sure) but the US had its paws very much involved.
I think we can safely dismiss your head in the sands analysis as to who and what the US's role is and has been in other countries particularly in South and Central American but also in other countries in Africa, the Middle east and Asia.

rock22

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

So a whataboutism being used in a discussion about Biden pointing out Emperor Putin has no clothes?

What a surprise /s

Every. Single. Thread. Which touches on Russia usually has someone who resorts to classic whataboutism, how tiring

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

But isn't this thread about The US president?

Why not open a thread on Russia if you want it.

TomOnBoard

rock22 wrote: »

But isn't this thread about The US president?

Why not open a thread on TRussia if you want it.

I think that's exactly the point correct horse battery staple is making.

Biden called out Putin in respect of his actions in the current timeframe
Biden called out China in respect of their actions in the current timeframe..

And we've had DAYS of postings of historical whataboutism and revisionism, going back DECADES into rabbit holes that, while interesting, are NOT relevant to the RIGHT NOW policies and situations..

In my opinion, most/all sensible contributors on here can stipulate to the following and move on:

1. MOST countries, particularly those in G7+ Russia have appalling histories of internal civil rights abuses and external foreign policy abuses..
2. NONE of those abuses should be ignored in a historical context..
3. Its TODAY'S abuses that are the subject of this thread insofar as they involve the Biden/Harris Presidency and their policies..
4. ALL the rest are worthy of discussion in more appropriate places..

Brussels Sprout

There's a certain type of poster, politician and journalist that seems to think that it's a zero sum game when it comes to criticising the USA or Russia. If someone criticises Russia they immediately jump in with some story about America's transgressions. Two people who spring to mind in particular are Clare Daly and Glenn Greenwald.

Clare Daly was on the Irish Times political podcast last month and in fairness to them they took her to task on this issue. Even then her defence was a constant stream of whataboutery. She took it a step further and threw the EU under the bus as well for good measure.

The biggest problem with this, is that it creates a false sense of equivalency and when followed to its natural conclusion, leads to a scenario that gives Putin carte blanche to do whatever he wants, free of criticism.

These things are not mutually exclusive:

1. The USA has an abysmal foreign policy record in many countries: instigating coups, propping up autocrats, plundering resources, drone bombing and outright invasions.
2. Putin's Russia is an undemocratic, corrupt, kleptocracy being ruled by an autocratic, belligerent, sociopath who ensures that any serious critics end up dead or in jail.

eire4

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

There's a certain type of poster, politician and journalist that seems to think that it's a zero sum game when it comes to criticising the USA or Russia. If someone criticises Russia they immediately jump in with some story about America's transgressions. Two people who spring to mind in particular are Clare Daly and Glenn Greenwald.

Clare Daly was on the Irish Times political podcast last month and in fairness to them they took her to task on this issue. Even then her defence was a constant stream of whataboutery. She took it a step further and threw the EU under the bus as well for good measure.

The biggest problem with this, is that it creates a false sense of equivalency and when followed to its natural conclusion, leads to a scenario that gives Putin carte blanche to do whatever he wants, free of criticism.

These things are not mutually exclusive:

1. The USA has an abysmal foreign policy record in many countries: instigating coups, propping up autocrats, plundering resources, drone bombing and outright invasions.
2. Putin's Russia is an undemocratic, corrupt, kleptocracy being ruled by an autocratic, belligerent, sociopath who ensures that any serious critics end up dead or in jail.

My point was not to do some whataboutism. There is absolutely zero question that Putin's Russia is an utterly contemptible and nasty authoritarian dictatorship no question about that whatsoever.
My only point was that the US are not the good guys on the world stage either. They maybe a lesser evil then Russia sure but they are not the good guys. I will also add that it is not in the past either. The US foreign policy does not change to any significant degree from Republican to Democratic presidents. The US support of Morocco and it's occupation and exploitation of Western Sahara was taken to the next level when the last US regime recognised that officially. It will be interesting to see if Biden reverses that recognition. He may well which would be good but I doubt he will stop the US military support of the authoritarian regime in Morocco.

Again no whataboutism from me to give Putin and Russia a free pass. Putin is one of the most evil and dangerous threats to the world no question IMHO and should be treated as such

relax carry on

ShaoCan wrote: »

The future of the USA from a political point of view doesn't look good at all!

Care to expand on that? Which particular political point of view are you referring to?

rock22

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

There's a certain type of poster, politician and journalist that seems to think that it's a zero sum game when it comes to criticising the USA or Russia. If someone criticises Russia they immediately jump in with some story about America's transgressions. Two people who spring to mind in particular are Clare Daly and Glenn Greenwald.

Clare Daly was on the Irish Times political podcast last month and in fairness to them they took her to task on this issue. Even then her defence was a constant stream of whataboutery. She took it a step further and threw the EU under the bus as well for good measure.

The biggest problem with this, is that it creates a false sense of equivalency and when followed to its natural conclusion, leads to a scenario that gives Putin carte blanche to do whatever he wants, free of criticism.

These things are not mutually exclusive:

1. The USA has an abysmal foreign policy record in many countries: instigating coups, propping up autocrats, plundering resources, drone bombing and outright invasions.
2. Putin's Russia is an undemocratic, corrupt, kleptocracy being ruled by an autocratic, belligerent, sociopath who ensures that any serious critics end up dead or in jail.

Lets look at US then.

What is continuing in Guantanamo is surely worse than anything happening elsewhere in the world. And it has continued during the terms of a past democratic president and so far, during the current one.

All external commentators, while criticising aspects of the Russia elections agree that the result closely match independent opinion polls and therefore find there is not systemic voter fraud. So I think Russia meets the criteria of a democracy, . Unless you can point to evidence of voter fraud.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Can we get back on topic please and refrain from both whataboutery and accusations of whataboutery? Thanks.

Brussels Sprout

Not addressing the whataboutery due to warning above

rock22 wrote: »

All external commentators, while criticising aspects of the Russia elections agree that the result closely match independent opinion polls and therefore find there is not systemic voter fraud.

This is most likely true.

rock22 wrote: »

So I think Russia meets the criteria of a democracy, . Unless you can point to evidence of voter fraud.

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat. Ballot stuffing and voter fraud is amateur hour stuff and also potentially hazardous. There are far better ways to put your thumb on the scale. The rigging of the system in Russia happens long before the election. Here's how it works:

1. Ban any party who is a credible threat or is overly critical of the Kremlin.
2. Tolerate official opposition parties that won't be overly-critical and are promoting an obviously failed system (The Communists) or are led by a performative nationalist mad man (Vladimir Zhirinovsky's LDPR). These will make you look competent and moderate by comparison.
3. Eliminate any independent TV companies so that only pro-Kremlin news and opinions are aired
4. Further elevate yourself above the other candidates by refusing to debate any of them. Instead allow the electorate to watch them tear each other apart.

Alexei Navalny refused to play by the above rules. He went after Putin in an area that no sanctioned opposition would - personally blaming him for the corruption that is endemic in Russia. The truth hurts. He had to be silenced and ultimately was (for now).

Biden was absolutely correct to call Putin out and Putin can of course bring up any of America's transgressions in response.

duploelabs

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Not addressing the whataboutery due to warning above



This is most likely true.



There's more than 1 way to skin a cat. Ballot stuffing and voter fraud is amateur hour stuff and also potentially hazardous. There are far better ways to put your thumb on the scale. The rigging of the system in Russia happens long before the election. Here's how it works:

1. Ban any party who is a credible threat or is overly critical of the Kremlin.
2. Tolerate official opposition parties that won't be overly-critical and are promoting an obviously failed system (The Communists) or are led by a performative nationalist mad man (Vladimir Zhirinovsky's LDPR). These will make you look competent and moderate by comparison.
3. Eliminate any independent TV companies so that only pro-Kremlin news and opinions are aired
4. Further elevate yourself above the other candidates by refusing to debate any of them. Instead allow the electorate to watch them tear each other apart.

Alexei Navalny refused to play by the above rules. He went after Putin in an area that no sanctioned opposition would - personally blaming him for the corruption that is endemic in Russia. The truth hurts. He had to be silenced and ultimately was (for now).

Biden was absolutely correct to call Putin out and Putin can of course bring up any of America's transgressions in response.

You forgot about running several 'independent' candidates against the true independent candidate to dilute the anti-putin vote

breezy1985

Where does this $2tln rank in terms of large investment plans. Would it be the biggest single plan since FDR

Brussels Sprout

breezy1985 wrote: »

Where does this $2tln rank in terms of large investment plans. Would it be the biggest single plan since FDR

It's bigger than the New Deal or the last large infrastructure project which was the building of the interstates in the 1960s. Both of those would be somewhere between $500B and $1Tn in today's money.

Manach

One should give credit to the Biden administration for producing and Mr. Blinken standing behind a formal Human Rights report that condemns the actions of the Chinese state against the Uyghurs. link.

breezy1985

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Having extensively travelled across US they need it, the roads, airports, bridges, rail all feel old and run down.

If Biden pulls this off this alone will make america great again

The rail system in the US and Canada is shocking bad by European standards. I assume it's down to the motor lobby

pixelburp

breezy1985 wrote: »

The rail system in the US and Canada is shocking bad by European standards. I assume it's down to the motor lobby

Maybe, but I've seen docs that point towards the road infrastructure being no better with many bridges across the country close to falling down. That all crews can do is mark the holes or cracks and move on. I'd say more likely the cause here is the increased urbanisation of the various states, coupled with old fashioned mismanagement of their funds. Don't get the impression the "he fixed the road" works over there, more like "he built a new football stadium" or the like

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe, but I've seen docs that point towards the road infrastructure being no better with many bridges across the country close to falling down. That all crews can do is mark the holes or cracks and move on. I'd say more likely the cause here is the increased urbanisation of the various states, coupled with old fashioned mismanagement of their funds. Don't get the impression the "he fixed the road" works over there, more like "he built a new football stadium" or the like

I'm surprised to hear about the roads I don't have much experience with them

pixelburp

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm surprised to hear about the roads I don't have much experience with them

I had a look and found the documentary I was thinking of: bridges were just one aspect of the discussion, with train tunnels and waterways also getting focus. Still though, a quite shocking indictment of a country that likes to boast of its primacy.

Not that Ireland doesn't have its own problems with the M50 or water systems dating from the Victorian era as examples, but America's infrastructure seems especially problematic. One of the YouTube comments nails it really in calling America the "richest poor country". Feels like they built these grand projects in the 40s, 50s and just dusted their hands of maintenance. Suppose all that spending on the military has to come from somewhre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvJSGc14xA

Quin_Dub

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm surprised to hear about the roads I don't have much experience with them

The roads in the US are quite poor - There are sections that are modern and new but huge swathes of the Country have terrible roads.

I've driven a lot in Texas and in parts of it they have what you imagine US roads are like , massive multi-lane highways with huge overpasses etc. , but then drive a few miles outside the main urban areas and you are back down to N-road standard stuff littered with potholes etc.

I drove from Austin to Houston a few times which is about 160 miles and couldn't get over how bad the road was.

5-10 miles around Austin was decent quality Motorway , but after that the rest of the journey was single lane "N-Road/R-Road" standard going through each and every one horse town until again I got to about 10 miles or so of Houston and we were back to newer Motorway.

They have massive gaps in their infrastructure..

Brussels Sprout

breezy1985 wrote: »

The rail system in the US and Canada is shocking bad by European standards. I assume it's down to the motor lobby

The Koch brothers are often depicted as bogeymen but this is one area that they have their fingerprints all over. Koch Industries has massive investments in Petroleum and have used their lobbying and Super PAC money to try to ensure that people continue to rely on cars as much as possible.

two wheels good

breezy1985 wrote: »

The rail system in the US and Canada is shocking bad by European standards. I assume it's down to the motor lobby

I recently came across a rail-buff's videos of Amtrak overnight services NYC to Miami, Chicago to NYC. They looked great; new sleepers, punctual, nice views. More expensive than a flight of course.
PS Sorry off topic.

AbusesToilets

breezy1985 wrote: »

The rail system in the US and Canada is shocking bad by European standards. I assume it's down to the motor lobby

The cost of construction is prohibitive. There's a vice doc on high speed rail, where an engineer type is explaining that in their area (CA iirc) the price was 169million per mile.

Carfacemandog

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The cost of construction is prohibitive. There's a vice doc on high speed rail, where an engineer type is explaining that in their area (CA iirc) the price was 169million per mile.

Obviously labour is cheaper, but hasn't China developed quite a lot of high speed rail in recent years? It might be worth the US looking to, dare I say it, emulate.

Brian?

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Obviously labour is cheaper, but hasn't China developed quite a lot of high speed rail in recent years? It might be worth the US looking to, dare I say it, emulate.

Japan has always been a role model in Rail travel.