What is the appeal of liberalism?

ancapailldorcha

I wish people would read up on what the L-word actually means rather than just using the senseless and daft American interpretation.

Hotblack Desiato

.anon. wrote: »

What is the appeal of using After Hours as your own personal blog?

Do sites like Wordpress and Blogger still exist?

What are the odds of the OP posting again in the thread, do you think?

Throw a banana, watch the monkeys dance... :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I wish people would read up on what the L-word actually means rather than just using the senseless and daft American interpretation.

That takes effort. And these people do not like making effort.

seamus

CharlesMartel wrote: »

Being a liberal in the modern world means never having to make a tough decision, shouting down dissenting views and supporting people that if given the chance would murder you and take all that you own. Liberals will destroy their own societies rather than question their own worldview

Quite the opposite Mr. Martel.

Being conservative means never having to make tough decisions. All decisions are already made for you by someone else and any harm done by that decision is merely collateral damage and is to be ignored.

Liberalism by contrast involves taking all points of view - even ones you may not personally like - and making the decision that is as inclusive as possible.

Conservatism is the choice of people who want an easy life and don't want to think too hard about anything.

Hotblack Desiato

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

Since when did a conservative have to be a religious believer? Although I suppose you could say not chopping the heads off apostates is one of those newfangled liberal values

sbsquarepants

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

This You work hard to get a good job to support your family. You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

I'm not sacrificing my life for any country - so there's one major downside. And anyway, typically in the US sense of the word "loving your country" more and more just means less sacrifce and more killing foreigners to take their shít - usually their oil. It's not noble, or patriotic it's just good old fashioned viking style pillage and plunder because foreigners aren't as worthy as Americans and you'd really like to take their stuff for yourselves - don't dress it up as anything other than it is!

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

Strong families are the bedrock of society. The welfare state promotes laziness and wasted lives. Social justice means equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. (This list is in no way exhaustive).

It can do i suppose, and strong families are important for any society - but what about less strong families, should they just be tossed on the scrap heap because they aren't "strong" ? That's a bit heartless isn't it?

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

And liberalism's greatest achievements, gay marriage and abortion, frankly disturb me. Especially abortion. I mean, when we get to the very bottom of it, past all the jargon, past 'fetus' this and 'termination' that, what are we really left with?

Why would anyone oppose gay marriage? If 2 men or 2 women want to get married, who's business is it but theirs?


Abortion is a trickier subject, but i think in a lot of cases, it is very much the least terrible option. I personally don't think it should be used as a form of contraception, but i don't feel like imposing my morals on the rest of the world would neccessarilly be for the best. Also i was just lucky enough to never have to make that choice, put in that situation my "morals" would probably have waivered anyway.

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

That is my take on the issue. I share it to start a discussion. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what is the appeal of liberalism?

The appeal is simply this, it is just wrong to assume that your values are the correct ones and you are morally justified in imposing them on others. Things like gay marriage & abortion are very much optional. No one is going to force you to marry a bloke, or to have an abortion - you can absolutely choose to live your life as if these things do not exist and never have anything to do with them. Denying them to others removes that freedom.


You saying Adam and Steve can't get married because you don't like the idea is the exact same thing as them saying Adam and Eve can't. It is simply wrong to impose your values on others.

ancapailldorcha

seamus wrote: »

Quite the opposite Mr. Martel.

Being conservative means never having to make tough decisions. All decisions are already made for you by someone else and any harm done by that decision is merely collateral damage and is to be ignored.

Liberalism by contrast involves taking all points of view - even ones you may not personally like - and making the decision that is as inclusive as possible.

Conservatism is the choice of people who want an easy life and don't want to think too hard about anything.

Yep.

Liberalism isn't a creed. It's a way of thinking based on rational thought, concern for individual rights and pragmatism. Different liberals using this way of thinking can arrive at opposing positions in a debate.

For instance, one liberal might support a woman's right to choose based on her right to bodily autonomy whereas another might oppose the right to choose based on the right to life of the newborn.

Mad_maxx

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

This might rattle the cage a bit, but hear me out.

I could never really understand the appeal of having a liberal outlook on life. The US election got me thinking about this again. To give a bit of background, I grew up in a conservative household. Both sets of grandparents could only be described as conservative. And I get it. I have thought through their positions and they just make sense. I suppose classical conservatism, as I understand it, is that some values never change. These values are paramount to society.

You work hard to get a good job to support your family. You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

Strong families are the bedrock of society. The welfare state promotes laziness and wasted lives. Social justice means equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. (This list is in no way exhaustive).

On the other hand, my view of liberalism is that we just do whatever we want; we redefine social values (many of which have been established for 1000s of years, going back to Ancient Greece) and create totally new ones.

Then I see the so-called 'liberal darlings': spending lots and lots of money, unrestrained immigration (especially from non-European countries), ecology and an emphasis on elevating various minorities onto a pedestal. Sometimes these 'darlings' seem to conflict with one another - this was shown when #Muslims are right about women was trending on Twitter.

And liberalism's greatest achievements, gay marriage and abortion, frankly disturb me. Especially abortion. I mean, when we get to the very bottom of it, past all the jargon, past 'fetus' this and 'termination' that, what are we really left with?

That is my take on the issue. I share it to start a discussion. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what is the appeal of liberalism?

It's the mainstream establishment default position nowadays so easier to identify with ,requires less individualism as you don't stand out and as a people, we hate standing out

lawred2

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

This might rattle the cage a bit, but hear me out.

I could never really understand the appeal of having a liberal outlook on life. The US election got me thinking about this again. To give a bit of background, I grew up in a conservative household. Both sets of grandparents could only be described as conservative. And I get it. I have thought through their positions and they just make sense. I suppose classical conservatism, as I understand it, is that some values never change. These values are paramount to society.

You work hard to get a good job to support your family. You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

Strong families are the bedrock of society. The welfare state promotes laziness and wasted lives. Social justice means equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. (This list is in no way exhaustive).

On the other hand, my view of liberalism is that we just do whatever we want; we redefine social values (many of which have been established for 1000s of years, going back to Ancient Greece) and create totally new ones.

Then I see the so-called 'liberal darlings': spending lots and lots of money, unrestrained immigration (especially from non-European countries), ecology and an emphasis on elevating various minorities onto a pedestal. Sometimes these 'darlings' seem to conflict with one another - this was shown when #Muslims are right about women was trending on Twitter.

And liberalism's greatest achievements, gay marriage and abortion, frankly disturb me. Especially abortion. I mean, when we get to the very bottom of it, past all the jargon, past 'fetus' this and 'termination' that, what are we really left with?

That is my take on the issue. I share it to start a discussion. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what is the appeal of liberalism?

As a liberal I hate my family and couldn't be arsed providing for them...

It's great

lawred2

I hate my children the most

They are someone else's problem

Mad_maxx

eviltwin wrote: »

Personally I like living in a society where people can be themselves instead of being forced into boxes. I grew up in the conservative 80’s and it was pretty ****e tbh if you were in any way different.

I also work hard for my family but that’s partly as a result of liberalism. Conservatives tend to have issues with working mothers. And unfortunately I don’t share the OP’s view on God or dying for ones country so where does that leave others like me.

Liberalism won’t force you to change your views OP. But we’re all different, all have different values and there’s room for all of them.

Progressives certainly want to enforce their views and curb conservative ones

Of course progressives are not liberals though they view themselves as being so

Mad_maxx

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

I've never understood campaigning for rights for others that are denied to yourself.

Take, for example, direct provision.

A great amount of people marching in the streets over it will be students.

Some, many, of these students will be from the countryside, living in Dublin.

They are marching for own door accommodation (read- a house/ flat all to yourself) for people who have been in the country five minutes, who already receive free health care, free accommodation and a weekly government stipend, among many other things.

These people are in the country five minutes and get more free stuff than the student marching gets. The student likely doesn't have a medical card, doesn't receive a training allowance, and pays (or their parents pay) for a shared bedroom in a dump of a house in Rathmines etc.

In many cases an asylum seeker arriving in this country today has more chance of obtaining a "forever home" within five years than the 18 year old student marching on their behalf does within 20 years. Most programme refugees will receive their forever home within five months.

It's mind boggling stupidity. A similar example- BLM marchers who would be beat and robbed at the first opportunity by most of the violent recidivist felons they martyr when one gets on the wrong side of a cop.

Its called being religious, the religion of WOKE specifically ,ending DP is part of WOKE doctrine

Religion has little logic

ancapailldorcha

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Progressives certainly want to enforce their views and curb conservative ones

Of course progressives are not liberals though they view themselves as being so

Conservatives have been doing this for a long time. Funny how they never seem to get any criticism for the same thing.

mariaalice

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

This might rattle the cage a bit, but hear me out.

I could never really understand the appeal of having a liberal outlook on life. The US election got me thinking about this again. To give a bit of background, I grew up in a conservative household. Both sets of grandparents could only be described as conservative. And I get it. I have thought through their positions and they just make sense. I suppose classical conservatism, as I understand it, is that some values never change. These values are paramount to society.

You work hard to get a good job to support your family. You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

Strong families are the bedrock of society. The welfare state promotes laziness and wasted lives. Social justice means equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. (This list is in no way exhaustive).

On the other hand, my view of liberalism is that we just do whatever we want; we redefine social values (many of which have been established for 1000s of years, going back to Ancient Greece) and create totally new ones.

Then I see the so-called 'liberal darlings': spending lots and lots of money, unrestrained immigration (especially from non-European countries), ecology and an emphasis on elevating various minorities onto a pedestal. Sometimes these 'darlings' seem to conflict with one another - this was shown when #Muslims are right about women was trending on Twitter.

And liberalism's greatest achievements, gay marriage and abortion, frankly disturb me. Especially abortion. I mean, when we get to the very bottom of it, past all the jargon, past 'fetus' this and 'termination' that, what are we really left with?

That is my take on the issue. I share it to start a discussion. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what is the appeal of liberalism?

Why do you personally care so much about what others you disagree with think? and why do you care so much about spates on Twitter? how is affecting you a genuine question?

A die-hard communist made a point in a thread about politics which could some up you post perfectly.

99% of people don't care they just want to get on with their lives and live in a decent society.

Mad_maxx

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Conservatives have been doing this for a long time. Funny how they never seem to get any criticism for the same thing.

They used to in Ireland alright but the new authoritarians call themselves liberals

The WOKE clergy sermonise to the very same extent and wish to dictate what is acceptable

growleaves

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

I’ll also point out that “conservatism” isn’t as unchanging as it sometimes thinks. There’s a lot of values that conservatives hold dear today that would be alien or in direct opposition to the values that previous generations of conservatives would have held. Some of those values would have even come from the liberals and progressives of previous generations. I’m thinking of the notion of republican government as one example. There’s very few modern conservatives in Ireland or the US that would support monarchy in the way that their conservative ancestors would have. And certainly in the US, republicanism is fully embraced by conservatives, even though it was born out of liberal and progressive revolution.

You mention certain values going back to Ancient Greece, but the fact is that the Ancient Greeks would have also had some values that modern conservatives would find totally abhorrent. And modern conservatives would have some values that Ancient Greeks would have though as off-the-wall revolutionary.

Everything progresses, even conservatism.

Agree with this fully.

Conservatism is a political tendency only, so it can mean different things in different times and places.

Ancient Greek societies, including Athens, didn't have market economies. Most citizens were freeholders and they would have slaves to take care of the land.

ancapailldorcha

mariaalice wrote: »

Why do you personally care so much about what others you disagree with think? and why do you care so much about spates on Twitter? how is affecting you a genuine question?

A die-hard communist made a point in a thread about politics which could some up you post perfectly.

99% of people don't care they just want to get on with their lives and live in a decent society.

Conservatism is about consensus and groupthink. They can't brook dissent. As we move forward in terms of equal rightsk, spouting these silly soundbytes with no evidence whatsoever is what they're reduced to.

ancapailldorcha

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They used to in Ireland alright but the new authoritarians call themselves liberals

The WOKE clergy sermonise to the very same extent and wish to dictate what is acceptable

This is just edgy nonsense. Feel free to back it up if you have evidence but in my experience, none is forthcoming.

Mullaghteelin

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

ancapailldorcha

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

That's bollox. The only time the Democratic establishment has shown any sort of vigour is when it shut down progressives like Sanders.

As for the GOP, they're just white supremacists now IMO who enforce minority rule though anti-democratic practices.

growleaves

dotsman wrote: »

And, by the way, the ancients were far more socially liberal than us. The Greeks and Roman (pre-Christian) were all about the homo and the tranny. Absolutely worshipped them.

Er no they didn't worship 'the tranny' because trans-sexualism was forbidden. Aside from Nero's boyfriend, universally ridiculed and hated, they weren't any known trans people. Or if they were, very few.

Homosexual relations in those times were different from what people today imagine them to be. Suffice to say homosexuality wasn't considered an 'orientation'. Also people of the ancient world didn't "absolutely worship" homosexuality.

Juvenal's satires were stinging rebukes of fornication, homosexuality, abortion. Ovid rebuked abortion in his poetry. The existence of these phenomena in the ancient world doesn't mean that everyone in these societies was uncritical of them.

Pre-Christian Germanic pagans buried homosexuals alive as recounted by Tacitus in his history of the Germans.

silverharp

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's bollox. The only time the Democratic establishment has shown any sort of vigour is when it shut down progressives like Sanders.

As for the GOP, they're just white supremacists now IMO who enforce minority rule though anti-democratic practices.

You do know Trump got a higher hispanic and black vote and I will assume Jewish vote than 2016 , it would throw into question your "MSNBC narrative"?

Mad_maxx

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Conservatism is about consensus and groupthink. They can't brook dissent. As we move forward in terms of equal rightsk, spouting these silly soundbytes with no evidence whatsoever is what they're reduced to.

So do progressives ,only difference is progressive thought is the default dominant consensus today

ancapailldorcha

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So do progressives ,only difference is progressive thought is the default dominant consensus today

What evidence do you have for that?

Mad_maxx

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

Classic liberalism is in short supply these days in any country ,it was never popular here as right and left love big government in Ireland

Beit priests ,publicans or farmers or journalists and NGO activists

Mad_maxx

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What evidence do you have for that?

You don't think that the progressive position is the establishment position today?

ancapailldorcha

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You don't think that the progressive position is the establishment position today?

None then. Grand.

Hellotonever

Oh jesus christ. You are horribly misinformed. Liberalism isnt in any way new nor is it about any of the things you listed.

Please read the origins of liberalism, especially its origins in French enlightenment, revolution (reign of terror) and Napoleon's war across Europe.

It started when lower and middle class people decided that monarchies with unrestrained power were detrimental to society. Liberty, Equality and Fraternity are the bedrock of liberalism, and if you believe in any of things congratulations youre 'liberal'.

You conflated SJWs and corporate/political agendas as part of the liberal thought. But in truth read history. They dragged out monarchs and aristocrats out in the streets and mutilated them one by one, beheading most. Then followed Napoleon across Europe and Africa, killing millions because they wanted to destroy all of the monarchies that suppressed Liberty and Equality. In fact, Napoleon won in the long run as the systems collapse of all monarchies in Europe is due to Liberal political shift after WW1.

Liberalism is not this soft thing about immigration or social justice. Liberals historically have been killing and mutilating those who stood in the way of freedom and equality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_liberalism#:~:text=The%20rise%20of%20Napoleon%20as,of%20law%2C%20the%20Code%20Napoleon.

Hellotonever

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

OP conflated Liberalism (Equality, Liberty, Fraternity) with Progressivism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism#:~:text=Progressivism%20is%20a%20political%20philosophy%20in%20support%20of%20social%20reform.

Mad_maxx

Hellotonever wrote: »

OP conflated Liberalism (Equality, Liberty, Fraternity) with Progressivism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism#:~:text=Progressivism%20is%20a%20political%20philosophy%20in%20support%20of%20social%20reform.

We are bombarded daily with the progressive agenda ,liberalism is all but dead as a force in many countries