What is the appeal of liberalism?

CharlesMartel wrote: »

just wow. I could say manchester united footballers are good soccer players, and you would take the meaning that i said all manchester united footballers. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin again?

You got caught out and this is your best excuse...?

If you mean a certain amount, express said amount. Stop being vague.

Deleted User wrote: »

Like, in fairness, anyone who argued against letting the gays get married or abortion was feckin eaten..

To be honest giving gay couples the same civil rights as straight couples was long overdue, particular protection of inheritance rights and succession. I don;t see how anybody could vote against it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You did. More than once.

just wow. I could say manchester united footballers are good soccer players, and you would take the meaning that i said all manchester united footballers. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin again?

CharlesMartel wrote: »

i did not say all liberals. just the prevailing mood

You did. More than once.

CharlesMartel wrote: »

But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

I am a classical liberal. I base my life on enlightment principles. But modern liberals will scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis, but on feelings. For example saying that child should not undergo gender reassigment is treated by modern liberals as true evil and worse than nazism. its nuts.

CharlesMartel wrote: »

Being a liberal in the modern world means never having to make a tough decision, shouting down dissenting views and supporting people that if given the chance would murder you and take all that you own. Liberals will destroy their own societies rather than question their own worldview

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What evidence do you have for this?

Anecdotal

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Liberalism is the concept of allowing people to live their lives the way they want to.

Conservatism is telling them how to live their lives.

I disagree. Conservative are usually cool how you live your life, they just don't want to pay for it

CharlesMartel wrote: »

Exactly, modern liberals are not open to logical discussion to create a better situation. there is no compromise with alternative views..just like the authoritarian faiths they claim to hate. I get the impression if the Catholic Church still was in charge here, a lot of the professed Liberals, would have been the informers and enforcers of Catholic Ireland. Ie they love the dogma and certainty of a fixed position than open debate

What evidence do you have for this?

ShatterAlan

Aubrie Thousands Suspicion wrote: »

This might rattle the cage a bit, but hear me out.

I could never really understand the appeal of having a liberal outlook on life. The US election got me thinking about this again. To give a bit of background, I grew up in a conservative household. Both sets of grandparents could only be described as conservative. And I get it. I have thought through their positions and they just make sense. I suppose classical conservatism, as I understand it, is that some values never change. These values are paramount to society.

You work hard to get a good job to support your family. You love your country, even if it means you have to sacrifice your life for it. You love and honour God as your creator and (hopefully) your final destination.

Strong families are the bedrock of society. The welfare state promotes laziness and wasted lives. Social justice means equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. (This list is in no way exhaustive).

On the other hand, my view of liberalism is that we just do whatever we want; we redefine social values (many of which have been established for 1000s of years, going back to Ancient Greece) and create totally new ones.

Then I see the so-called 'liberal darlings': spending lots and lots of money, unrestrained immigration (especially from non-European countries), ecology and an emphasis on elevating various minorities onto a pedestal. Sometimes these 'darlings' seem to conflict with one another - this was shown when #Muslims are right about women was trending on Twitter.

And liberalism's greatest achievements, gay marriage and abortion, frankly disturb me. Especially abortion. I mean, when we get to the very bottom of it, past all the jargon, past 'fetus' this and 'termination' that, what are we really left with?

That is my take on the issue. I share it to start a discussion. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what is the appeal of liberalism?

Liberalism is the concept of allowing people to live their lives the way they want to.

Conservatism is telling them how to live their lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And yet so enlightened think that all liberals "scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis".

Not sure what you think you're discribing here, but it's me liberal.

i did not say all liberals. just the prevailing mood

CharlesMartel wrote: »

But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

I am a classical liberal. I base my life on enlightment principles. But modern liberals will scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis, but on feelings. For example saying that child should not undergo gender reassigment is treated by modern liberals as true evil and worse than nazism. its nuts.

And yet so enlightened think that all liberals "scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis".

Not sure what you think you're discribing here, but it's me liberal.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

By the same logic, I can equate neo-Nazis and Conservatives. On that basis, I can disregard everything they say.

Exactly, modern liberals are not open to logical discussion to create a better situation. there is no compromise with alternative views..just like the authoritarian faiths they claim to hate. I get the impression if the Catholic Church still was in charge here, a lot of the professed Liberals, would have been the informers and enforcers of Catholic Ireland. Ie they love the dogma and certainty of a fixed position than open debate

CharlesMartel wrote: »

But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

By the same logic, I can equate neo-Nazis and Conservatives. On that basis, I can disregard everything they say.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yep.

Liberalism isn't a creed. It's a way of thinking based on rational thought, concern for individual rights and pragmatism. Different liberals using this way of thinking can arrive at opposing positions in a debate.

For instance, one liberal might support a woman's right to choose based on her right to bodily autonomy whereas another might oppose the right to choose based on the right to life of the newborn.

But modern liberalism as taken on the qualities of faith based dogma. Go against the tenants of modern liberalism and you have to be ostracised and force out. for example George Hook

I am a classical liberal. I base my life on enlightment principles. But modern liberals will scream and shout and demand acceptance of stuff that has no empirical basis, but on feelings. For example saying that child should not undergo gender reassigment is treated by modern liberals as true evil and worse than nazism. its nuts.

seamus wrote: »

Quite the opposite Mr. Martel.

Being conservative means never having to make tough decisions. All decisions are already made for you by someone else and any harm done by that decision is merely collateral damage and is to be ignored.

Liberalism by contrast involves taking all points of view - even ones you may not personally like - and making the decision that is as inclusive as possible.

Conservatism is the choice of people who want an easy life and don't want to think too hard about anything.

And that would be true in the past. Since liberalism has become the prevailing dogma, and quite an intolerant dogma at that, it is the conservative that make difficult choices/decisions and have to face the howling liberal mob, or worse, the decapitator in their church.
There are no negative social or economic consequences of professing onceself a liberal in Western society today.

silverharp

The_Brood wrote: »

SJWs are exactly the people who describe themselves as liberal. The Democrats describe themselves as liberal. If the word has been basterdised beyond recognition, you need a new word.

One observation I'd have is that Republicans are better at distancing themselves from the far right than Democrats are are distancing themselves from the far Left. A Democrat could literally express a love of communism , or express the view that kids identifying as trans could be castrated and they wouldnt get much in the way of flack.

The_Brood wrote: »

SJWs are exactly the people who describe themselves as liberal. The Democrats describe themselves as liberal. If the word has been basterdised beyond recognition, you need a new word.

No, people just need to learn the difference.

The_Brood

Hellotonever wrote: »

Oh jesus christ. You are horribly misinformed. Liberalism isnt in any way new nor is it about any of the things you listed.

Please read the origins of liberalism, especially its origins in French enlightenment, revolution (reign of terror) and Napoleon's war across Europe.

It started when lower and middle class people decided that monarchies with unrestrained power were detrimental to society. Liberty, Equality and Fraternity are the bedrock of liberalism, and if you believe in any of things congratulations youre 'liberal'.

You conflated SJWs and corporate/political agendas as part of the liberal thought. But in truth read history. They dragged out monarchs and aristocrats out in the streets and mutilated them one by one, beheading most. Then followed Napoleon across Europe and Africa, killing millions because they wanted to destroy all of the monarchies that suppressed Liberty and Equality. In fact, Napoleon won in the long run as the systems collapse of all monarchies in Europe is due to Liberal political shift after WW1.

Liberalism is not this soft thing about immigration or social justice. Liberals historically have been killing and mutilating those who stood in the way of freedom and equality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_liberalism#:~:text=The%20rise%20of%20Napoleon%20as,of%20law%2C%20the%20Code%20Napoleon.

SJWs are exactly the people who describe themselves as liberal. The Democrats describe themselves as liberal. If the word has been basterdised beyond recognition, you need a new word.

Hellotonever wrote: »

OP conflated Liberalism (Equality, Liberty, Fraternity) with Progressivism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism#:~:text=Progressivism%20is%20a%20political%20philosophy%20in%20support%20of%20social%20reform.

We are bombarded daily with the progressive agenda ,liberalism is all but dead as a force in many countries

Hellotonever

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

OP conflated Liberalism (Equality, Liberty, Fraternity) with Progressivism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism#:~:text=Progressivism%20is%20a%20political%20philosophy%20in%20support%20of%20social%20reform.

Hellotonever

Oh jesus christ. You are horribly misinformed. Liberalism isnt in any way new nor is it about any of the things you listed.

Please read the origins of liberalism, especially its origins in French enlightenment, revolution (reign of terror) and Napoleon's war across Europe.

It started when lower and middle class people decided that monarchies with unrestrained power were detrimental to society. Liberty, Equality and Fraternity are the bedrock of liberalism, and if you believe in any of things congratulations youre 'liberal'.

You conflated SJWs and corporate/political agendas as part of the liberal thought. But in truth read history. They dragged out monarchs and aristocrats out in the streets and mutilated them one by one, beheading most. Then followed Napoleon across Europe and Africa, killing millions because they wanted to destroy all of the monarchies that suppressed Liberty and Equality. In fact, Napoleon won in the long run as the systems collapse of all monarchies in Europe is due to Liberal political shift after WW1.

Liberalism is not this soft thing about immigration or social justice. Liberals historically have been killing and mutilating those who stood in the way of freedom and equality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_liberalism#:~:text=The%20rise%20of%20Napoleon%20as,of%20law%2C%20the%20Code%20Napoleon.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You don't think that the progressive position is the establishment position today?

None then. Grand.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What evidence do you have for that?

You don't think that the progressive position is the establishment position today?

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

Classic liberalism is in short supply these days in any country ,it was never popular here as right and left love big government in Ireland

Beit priests ,publicans or farmers or journalists and NGO activists

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So do progressives ,only difference is progressive thought is the default dominant consensus today

What evidence do you have for that?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Conservatism is about consensus and groupthink. They can't brook dissent. As we move forward in terms of equal rightsk, spouting these silly soundbytes with no evidence whatsoever is what they're reduced to.

So do progressives ,only difference is progressive thought is the default dominant consensus today

silverharp

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's bollox. The only time the Democratic establishment has shown any sort of vigour is when it shut down progressives like Sanders.

As for the GOP, they're just white supremacists now IMO who enforce minority rule though anti-democratic practices.

You do know Trump got a higher hispanic and black vote and I will assume Jewish vote than 2016 , it would throw into question your "MSNBC narrative"?

growleaves

dotsman wrote: »

And, by the way, the ancients were far more socially liberal than us. The Greeks and Roman (pre-Christian) were all about the homo and the tranny. Absolutely worshipped them.

Er no they didn't worship 'the tranny' because trans-sexualism was forbidden. Aside from Nero's boyfriend, universally ridiculed and hated, they weren't any known trans people. Or if they were, very few.

Homosexual relations in those times were different from what people today imagine them to be. Suffice to say homosexuality wasn't considered an 'orientation'. Also people of the ancient world didn't "absolutely worship" homosexuality.

Juvenal's satires were stinging rebukes of fornication, homosexuality, abortion. Ovid rebuked abortion in his poetry. The existence of these phenomena in the ancient world doesn't mean that everyone in these societies was uncritical of them.

Pre-Christian Germanic pagans buried homosexuals alive as recounted by Tacitus in his history of the Germans.

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.

That's bollox. The only time the Democratic establishment has shown any sort of vigour is when it shut down progressives like Sanders.

As for the GOP, they're just white supremacists now IMO who enforce minority rule though anti-democratic practices.

Mullaghteelin

In the USA right now "Liberalism" is closer to Conservativism than Progressivism. As the Progressives gain power and drag politics further to the Left, the old school liberals will have more in common with moderate Republicans.