2020 All Ireland Senior Football Championship MOD NOTE POST #1

Always_Running

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Is it?

News to me:

Munster football championship winners 2000-2020


The first two decades of the 21st Century has seen Kerry win 15 of a possible 20 Munster Championship titles.

Kerry: 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 (15) (got a back to back, 3 in a row, and a 7 in a row)

(The princes of the pigskin had it their own way in Munster for so long it is just accepted as a matter of course. Plus the backdoor gave them a second chance any time Cork beat them occasionally)

Cork: 2002, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012 (5) (back to back 08 and 09) (none for 8 years)

(The enigma's of Gaelic football - who managed to dismantle an All Ireland winning side from 2010 and fall into division 3 in 10 years.

Tipp: 2020 (1) (first for 85 years)

(Best Tipp footballers of their generation bubbling under since 2011. However, only for covid19 I doubt this victory would have occurred this year.)

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Overall 3 different winners in 20 years
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Leinster football championship winners 2000-2020



Dublin: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 (5 in a row, 10 in a row)

{Best footballers in their history from 2013 on - up until 2013 Leinster's were hard fought. Easy after that. Helped by Kildare and Meath going backwards .They lost to Leinster minnows (weaker counties 5 times between 2010 and 2020.) }

Meath: 2001, 2010 (2) (none for 10 since their controversial Louth win)

{Meath with Boylan a fading force unable to rebuild and replace the great man. Meath went backwards .

Out of div 1 for 13 years 2006-2019. Shocked by a weak div1 Laois side in 2012, shocked by Westmeath in 2015 (a div 2 side relegated to div 3.), 2018 shocked v Longford (a div 3 side)}

Kildare: 2000 (1) (none for 20 years)

{'The Micko effect' got a team motivated and attracted a good few imports to play for Kildare. Micko has not been replaced with a man as capable since.

Since those heady days Kildare have gone backwards.2016 shock loss to Westmeath (a div 2 side relegated to div 3), 2018 shocked by Carlow (a div 4 side just promoted to div 3, Kildare were a div 1 side relegated)

Laois: 2003 (1) (none for 17 years)

(The Micko effect' got a team motivated and attracted a few imports to play for Laois. Mixed with a strong underage crop. Micko has not been replaced with a man as capable since.)

Westmeath: 2004 (1) (None for 16 years)

('The Paidi effect' no manager of the same calibre has managed Westmeath since)

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Overall 5 different winners in 20 years
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Connacht football championship winners 2000-2020

Mayo: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2020 (9) (5 in a row)

(One of the most consistent counties of the last two decades, up there with Kerry)


Galway: 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2008, 2016, 2018 (7)

(May have won Connacht's but latest versions are a long way short of Galway, in the early 00's)


Roscommon: 2001, 2010, 2017, 2019 (4)

(Arguably Roscommon's best generation of footballers in the 2010's)


Sligo: 2007 (1) (none for 13 years)

(Major shock unheralded)

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Overall 4 different winners in 20 years
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Ulster football championship winners 2000-2020


Tyrone: 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2016, 2017 (7)

(Best generation of players in their history)

Armagh: 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008 (6) (none for 12 years)

(Best generation of players in their history and manager 'Big Joe', plus were basically fed by one great club team Crossmaglen - but fall was sharp now a Armagh is really a div 3 team)

Donegal: 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019 (5)

{Best generation of players and manager (Jim McGuinness and co) for at least 20 years in the county}

Monaghan: 2013, 2015 (2) (none for five years)

(Best generation of players in the county for decades and still only manage 2 Ulster's in 20 years - with one of the best forwards in the country)

Cavan: 2020 (first for 13 years)


(Major shock unheralded, great manager but I doubt it would have happened but for covid19)


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Overall 5 different winners in 20 years.
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Munster is just as uncompetitive as Leinster. Kerry's stranglehold is just as complete as Dublin's on Leinster. Tipp an anomaly great under age team since 2011 the backbone. Despite this it took covid19 for Tipp to win a Munster.

Ulster is really dominated by two teams Tyrone or Donegal. Monaghan seem a fading force. Armagh may never hit the same heights as with 'Big Joe'. Now they are a div 3 team.

Connacht is Galway or Mayo as always in the last 20 years. Roscommon's golden generation have added a bit of spice in recent years, in fairness. But outside of Connacht the Rossies have never shown much improvement.

Overall to me it seems that Ulster is becoming predictable. However, the name of the most competitive province in the last 20 years is between Ulster or Connacht.

As there is always a chance a decent third team will appear. Munster and Leinster are definitely dead ducks, if you stand back and ignore the Tipp hype/tears they definitely had their day.

Let Ulster or just rename the McKenna cup the 'Ulster championship' if they like. Or let Connacht rename the FBD the 'Connacht championship' if they like.

I would argue for a scrapping of all provincials. League is the way forward and it should be made the 'new AI championship' - knockouts following the group stages.

More time freed up for club football on the calendar, job done

Armagh now a Div 3 team? They were promoted to Div 1.

Monaghan winning 2 Ulster titles in 7 years a more than decent return for a county of their size and resources and they have all managed to stay in Div 1 for each of the last 6 years.

I wouldn't belittle Cavan, Tipp province wins as much as you, both built on underage success and both had beaten Donegal, Cork in underage finals so had no fear of those teams or players.

Roscommon golden generation? late 80s early 90s they had established Div 1 team that won back to back Connacht titles and 77 to 80 they won 4 in a row Connacht titles and was arguably one of the best sides to not win the All-Ireland.

Provincial championships are made for memories like last Sunday and those type of scenes would not be seen with some group stage format.

Finally with the proposals in place there will be plenty of time in the calendar year for club football next year and with few distractions unlike other years.

Girly Gal

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Is it?

News to me:

Munster football championship winners 2000-2020


The first two decades of the 21st Century has seen Kerry win 15 of a possible 20 Munster Championship titles.

Kerry: 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 (15) (got a back to back, 3 in a row, and a 7 in a row)

(The princes of the pigskin had it their own way in Munster for so long it is just accepted as a matter of course. Plus the backdoor gave them a second chance any time Cork beat them occasionally)

Cork: 2002, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012 (5) (back to back 08 and 09) (none for 8 years)

(The enigma's of Gaelic football - who managed to dismantle an All Ireland winning side from 2010 and fall into division 3 in 10 years.

Tipp: 2020 (1) (first for 85 years)

(Best Tipp footballers of their generation bubbling under since 2011. However, only for covid19 I doubt this victory would have occurred this year.)

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Overall 3 different winners in 20 years
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Leinster football championship winners 2000-2020



Dublin: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 (5 in a row, 10 in a row)

{Best footballers in their history from 2013 on - up until 2013 Leinster's were hard fought. Easy after that. Helped by Kildare and Meath going backwards .They lost to Leinster minnows (weaker counties 5 times between 2010 and 2020.) }

Meath: 2001, 2010 (2) (none for 10 since their controversial Louth win)

{Meath with Boylan a fading force unable to rebuild and replace the great man. Meath went backwards .

Out of div 1 for 13 years 2006-2019. Shocked by a weak div1 Laois side in 2012, shocked by Westmeath in 2015 (a div 2 side relegated to div 3.), 2018 shocked v Longford (a div 3 side)}

Kildare: 2000 (1) (none for 20 years)

{'The Micko effect' got a team motivated and attracted a good few imports to play for Kildare. Micko has not been replaced with a man as capable since.

Since those heady days Kildare have gone backwards.2016 shock loss to Westmeath (a div 2 side relegated to div 3), 2018 shocked by Carlow (a div 4 side just promoted to div 3, Kildare were a div 1 side relegated)

Laois: 2003 (1) (none for 17 years)

(The Micko effect' got a team motivated and attracted a few imports to play for Laois. Mixed with a strong underage crop. Micko has not been replaced with a man as capable since.)

Westmeath: 2004 (1) (None for 16 years)

('The Paidi effect' no manager of the same calibre has managed Westmeath since)

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Overall 5 different winners in 20 years
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Connacht football championship winners 2000-2020

Mayo: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2020 (9) (5 in a row)

(One of the most consistent counties of the last two decades, up there with Kerry)


Galway: 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2008, 2016, 2018 (7)

(May have won Connacht's but latest versions are a long way short of Galway, in the early 00's)


Roscommon: 2001, 2010, 2017, 2019 (4)

(Arguably Roscommon's best generation of footballers in the 2010's)


Sligo: 2007 (1) (none for 13 years)

(Major shock unheralded)

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Overall 4 different winners in 20 years
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Ulster football championship winners 2000-2020


Tyrone: 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2016, 2017 (7)

(Best generation of players in their history)

Armagh: 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008 (6) (none for 12 years)

(Best generation of players in their history and manager 'Big Joe', plus were basically fed by one great club team Crossmaglen - but fall was sharp now a Armagh is really a div 3 team)

Donegal: 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019 (5)

{Best generation of players and manager (Jim McGuinness and co) for at least 20 years in the county}

Monaghan: 2013, 2015 (2) (none for five years)

(Best generation of players in the county for decades and still only manage 2 Ulster's in 20 years - with one of the best forwards in the country)

Cavan: 2020 (first for 13 years)


(Major shock unheralded, great manager but I doubt it would have happened but for covid19)


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Overall 5 different winners in 20 years.
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Munster is just as uncompetitive as Leinster. Kerry's stranglehold is just as complete as Dublin's on Leinster. Tipp an anomaly great under age team since 2011 the backbone. Despite this it took covid19 for Tipp to win a Munster.

Ulster is really dominated by two teams Tyrone or Donegal. Monaghan seem a fading force. Armagh may never hit the same heights as with 'Big Joe'. Now they are a div 3 team.

Connacht is Galway or Mayo as always in the last 20 years. Roscommon's golden generation have added a bit of spice in recent years, in fairness. But outside of Connacht the Rossies have never shown much improvement.

Overall to me it seems that Ulster is becoming predictable. However, the name of the most competitive province in the last 20 years is between Ulster or Connacht.

As there is always a chance a decent third team will appear. Munster and Leinster are definitely dead ducks, if you stand back and ignore the Tipp hype/tears they definitely had their day.

Let Ulster or just rename the McKenna cup the 'Ulster championship' if they like. Or let Connacht rename the FBD the 'Connacht championship' if they like.

I would argue for a scrapping of all provincials. League is the way forward and it should be made the 'new AI championship' - knockouts following the group stages.

More time freed up for club football on the calendar, job done

I wouldn't dismiss Tipp and Cavan's wins as not happening only for Covid, the provincial format was the same as every year, just no back door or super 8's in the all Ireland series.

If we remove the provincial championships and go to a league type format, we'll end up with a lot of dead rubbers as we saw in the super 8's, also weaker counties can dream and would have a chance to reach or possibly even win a provincial final, but, no chance of winning an All Ireland, resulting in these counties completely losing interest and falling further behind.

gormdubhgorm

Always_Running wrote: »

Armagh now a Div 3 team? They were promoted to Div 1.

They will be back down fairly quickly to div2. Always floating are div2 now div3 at worst.

Monaghan winning 2 Ulster titles in 7 years a more than decent return for a county of their size and resources and they have all managed to stay in Div 1 for each of the last 6 years.

Fair point you have there. Monaghan are getting the very best out of the players they have. Through shrewd management and development.

I wouldn't belittle Cavan, Tipp province wins as much as you, both built on underage success and both had beaten Donegal, Cork in underage finals so had no fear of those teams or players.

I understand that on Cavan and Tipp. Proud of their wins and rightly so. But whether they like it or not there will be an *Due to covid19* in the history books footnotes.

Roscommon golden generation? late 80s early 90s they had established Div 1 team that won back to back Connacht titles and 77 to 80 they won 4 in a row Connacht titles and was arguably one of the best sides to not win the All-Ireland.

I realise there was the 77 and 80 teams. Not old enough to have seen them in the flesh. But given the way the system was then and the way the system in now I would rate the current Roscommon crop higher. Particularly for what they have done at u21 level recently. Just my opinion.

Provincial championships are made for memories like last Sunday and those type of scenes would not be seen with some group stage format.

True, but if there was a backdoor system those wins would be massively devalued over time. Like in 2001 when Roscommon won Connacht. I have to keep reminding myself of the fact because Galway won Sam that year.

Knock out football with no second chance does give a certain buzz though. I get that. I always felt the backdoor system ruined it. No matter who a supporters team is playing, a team might have a chance on the day in pure knockout.

But for the likes of Tipp and Cavan how often do those days happen? The system is set up against them.

OK you might say that what is rare is wonderful. But is that a reason to keep an unfair system that no longer serves its purpose?

Are there many people left that remember Louth winning Leinster in the 40's 50's? Leitrim's win in Connacht might not happen again for 50 years, if ever.

Finally with the proposals in place there will be plenty of time in the calendar year for club football next year and with few distractions unlike other years.

I will be looking forward to that so.

gormdubhgorm

Girly Gal wrote: »

I wouldn't dismiss Tipp and Cavan's wins as not happening only for Covid, the provincial format was the same as every year, just no back door or super 8's in the all Ireland series.

If we remove the provincial championships and go to a league type format, we'll end up with a lot of dead rubbers as we saw in the super 8's, also weaker counties can dream and would have a chance to reach or possibly even win a provincial final, but, no chance of winning an All Ireland, resulting in these counties completely losing interest and falling further behind.

I'm sorry no way would Cavan or Tipp have won this year only for Covid.
Not only the removal of the back door system, there was the removal of crowds less pressure on both home and away teams.

Also, some teams were put completely out of sync in their normal preparation.

It affected some teams more than others. I would argue it brought Kerry down a few levels from their normal levels, which enabled Cork to beat them.

The same thing happened with Donegal who were no where near the same type of Donegal in their performance.

Many teams have no chance of winning a provincial and they are just making up the numbers. Players from teams like Wicklow, Wexford, Longford, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Louth, Laois have no notion of winning Leinster anytime soon. Unless some miracle external force changes their teams and chances.

Fermanagh, Antrim, Derry, Armagh, Cavan the same in Ulster. Leitrim, Sligo and no real chance in Connacht. Limerick, Clare and Tipp do not have much chance in Munster. Many players are losing interest already and turning to their clubs

Turlough O’Brien the former Carlow manager told the truth that the League is Carlow's AI.

Personally I would have the 'A championship' as follows:

I would have the main AI as follows:

Donegal, Mayo and Galway as the three in 'Province 1'
Tyrone, Monaghan, Kildare in 'Province 2'
Kerry, Dublin, Cork in another 'Province 3'
Tipp, Meath, Cavan in another 'Province 4'

Each province has a home and away group phase of at least 4 games each.
Ok you might get the odd dead rubber but at least there would be quality games. with teams around the same level.

The Tyrone v Dublin 'dead rubber' was an enjoyable game for example. Nice day out and competitive based on the two teams put out. Plus Dublin got to blood McDaid and Bugler. Plus gave Bernard Brogan his last Dublin start in front of a packed ground on a sunny day.

The top two of each group go towards the AI QF's which are knock out. An open draw QF would be ideal and keep the whole thing a bit random.

Based on NFL rating and team performances on a 2/3 year cycle the leagues can be rejigged. No backdoor or any of that craic.

breezy1985

Still don't understand how no back door made it easier for Tipp and Cavan.

No backdoor should have made the big players more concentrated on the Provincial championships and it should be easier for Tipp during backdoor years cause Kerry won't care too much about another Munster medal.

No backdoor should make Kerry and Donegal harder to beat not easier

manofwisdom

breezy1985 wrote: »

Still don't understand how no back door made it easier for Tipp and Cavan.

No backdoor should have made the big players more concentrated on the Provincial championships and it should be easier for Tipp during backdoor years cause Kerry won't care too much about another Munster medal.

No backdoor should make Kerry and Donegal harder to beat not easier

It doesn't make it easier and it should be easier in pervious years with no knock out.

The devaluing of Tipp and Cavan success last Sunday is mildly amusing. Kerry came into this championship off the back of a high from winning the league and Cork brought them down to earth but were unable to build on that result as Tipperary out thought and out fought them in the final.

Cavan back in their 2nd final in a row learnt loads from last year's 5 point defeat, Donegal was in top form coming into that game and talked up as All Ireland contender but they couldn't match Cavan intensity on the day and deservedly beaten.

I don't expect either Tipp or Cavan to reach the AI final but regardless it should not take away from their historic provincial title success.

Rolo2010

I don't think we should rush into bringing back knockout football. This year was good but what happens if Kerry go on to win the next 5 or 6 in Munster. Connacht will still be Mayo, Galway, and Roscommon. Ulster is up in the air. Leinster will still be a joke. We may end up in the same situation as 2000 with a stale format which hasn't produced a huge number of shocks.

Rolo2010

Rolo2010 wrote: »

I don't think we should rush into bringing back knockout football. This year was good but what happens if Kerry go on to win the next 5 or 6 in Munster. Connacht will still be Mayo, Galway, and Roscommon. Ulster is up in the air. Leinster will still be a joke. We may end up in the same situation as 2000 with a stale format which hasn't produced a huge number of shocks.

It needs to be brought back for the latter stages and replace that yawn fest of a round robin.

Rolo2010

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It needs to be brought back for the latter stages and replace that yawn fest of a round robin.

I agree with that.

breezy1985

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It needs to be brought back for the latter stages and replace that yawn fest of a round robin.

A group stage at the closing stages of any tournament is stupid. Tournaments have been trying it for years and always give up on it

The soccer tried it as the final stage of the 1950 world cup. Luckily the final group game was also the decider and is often now listed as the final.

Cavan_King

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I'm sorry no way would Cavan or Tipp have won this year only for Covid.
Not only the removal of the back door system, there was the removal of crowds less pressure on both home and away teams.
The same thing happened with Donegal who were no where near the same type of Donegal in their performance.
Fermanagh, Antrim, Derry, Armagh, Cavan the same in Ulster. Leitrim, Sligo and no real chance in Connacht. Limerick, Clare and Tipp do not have much chance in Munster. Many players are losing interest already and turning to their clubs

Cavan had a tougher run than ever due to Covid playing six times in six weeks and, as they came through the preliminary round in Ulster, they were the only team didn’t get a week off.
In regard to Donegal’s performance, listen to Oisin McConville on the Examiner podcast. Cavan got everything right tactically and worked at a higher intensity than Donegal.
They also learned from last year’s final and not even the ref doing everything he could to help Donegal could get them over the line.

RoyalCelt

Sorry thought I was in the hurling thread. ****s sake lads stop talking football when the hurlings on!

Hammer Archer

Insinuating that Tipperary or Cavan's provincial titles are somehow devalued because of the year that's in it is ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.

breezy1985

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Insinuating that Tipperary or Cavan's provincial titles are somehow devalued because of the year that's in it is ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.

As a Limerick fan I recently learned that everyone is very supportive of a team that never wins until they actually win something and then people get bitter fast

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

As a Limerick fan I recently learned that everyone is very supportive of a team that never wins until they actually win something and then people get bitter fast

Might be the one plus point of Mayo winning it this year.

Girly Gal

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Might be the one plus point of Mayo winning it this year.

Looks like everyone will continue to be supportive of Mayo as they're unlikely to win the all Ireland this year

seligehgit

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Might be the one plus point of Mayo winning it this year.

You need'nt worry,not short of detractors as it is.;)

seligehgit

seligehgit wrote: »

You need'nt worry,not short of detractors as it is.;)

The darlings of the nation?

C__MC

I see the 2003 semi final is on TG4
Jaysus Tyrone absolutely bossed kerry that day, ate them alive.

FrancieBrady

True story I believe.

seligehgit

FrancieBrady wrote: »

True story I believe.

Ah Francie you've got to be pulling my leg.:D

munster87

C__MC wrote: »

I see the 2003 semi final is on TG4
Jaysus Tyrone absolutely bossed kerry that day, ate them alive.

Did you puke while watching it? As was the fashion at the time!

tanko

munster87 wrote: »

Did you puke while watching it? As was the fashion at the time!

Imagine the amount of puking Spillane must have done watching Kerry against Cork.

dobman88

C__MC wrote: »

I see the 2003 semi final is on TG4
Jaysus Tyrone absolutely bossed kerry that day, ate them alive.

A fantastic show and production by TG4 as usual. The tragedy that group of players endured was horrific. Great to see Michaela with Mickey also. Tg4 really are top class in their sports coverage

dxhound2005

At least Tyrone as champions did not have to endure the cruelty of the system before the Qualifiers. Both Derry and Down in the 90's got to play only one game the year after they won their All Irelands.

Donegal did get to the Ulster Final in '93. One of those low scoring games which old style football often produced. Derry 0-8, Donegal 0-6. It was a damp day as I remember.

tanko

dxhound2005 wrote: »

At least Tyrone as champions did not have to endure the cruelty of the system before the Qualifiers. Both Derry and Down in the 90's got to play only one game the year after they won their All Irelands.

Donegal did get to the Ulster Final in '93. One of those low scoring games which old style football often produced. Derry 0-8, Donegal 0-6. It was a damp day as I remember.

Down had two games in 92 after winning the AIF in 91. They beat Armagh in the Ulster QF but lost the Semi final to Derry.
They only had one game in 95 alrite after winning the AIF in 94.

That final in 93 shouldn't have been played, Clones was waterlogged that day.

thelad95

The knockout championship was fantastic this year. 2022 will see the return of the awful super 8s. The GAA know they are on to a cash cow in terms of gate receipts and will be very reluctant to give that up.

The qualifiers were a fantastic addition all those years ago but I really fail to see what added dimension the super 8s add to the mix. It's a dreadfully contrived idea. Shag all reward for winning a provincial championship too, still having to play another three games to reach a semi final. If you're an Ulster side drawn in the preliminary round, an All Ireland final would be your ninth game of the season even if you won the Ulster championship.

RoyalCelt

C__MC wrote: »

I see the 2003 semi final is on TG4
Jaysus Tyrone absolutely bossed kerry that day, ate them alive.

Kerry were vulnerable back then. Armagh did the same in 2002 I believe and Meath steam rolled them in 2001. Things changed big time in 2004.

seligehgit

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Insinuating that Tipperary or Cavan's provincial titles are somehow devalued because of the year that's in it is ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.

Cavan's provincial win matters not a jot.

It most certainly does and isn't devalued by the reconfiguration of the championship in this pandemic year.

'I know I'm gonna die but I'll not die until the game is over' - the 102-year-old GAA fan who held on for Cavan

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/i-know-im-gonna-die-but-ill-not-die-until-the-game-is-over-the-102-year-old-gaa-fan-who-held-on-for-cavan-39803678.html

RedDevil55

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Insinuating that Tipperary or Cavan's provincial titles are somehow devalued because of the year that's in it is ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.

I don't understand it at all. It's more impressive really since "big" teams in Ulster and Munster hadn't the safety net of the qualifiers.