Putting central heating into an old house

spakman

Hi, I have a large old house (1800s) which has never had central heating to speak of, bar a couple rads off a range with back boiler. Most rooms have storage heaters which need to be replaced and house is freezing in winter so decided to bite the bullet and get oil central heating installed.

Had a plumber out to size up the job - putting double rads with TRVs in all rooms (5 bedrooms, 3 living rooms, kitchen, utility, hallway x2), heated towel rails and power showers in bathrooms, oil condensing boiler, zoned (upstairs, downstairs, water i prrsume), new hot water cylinder, oil tank, all pipework etc

Haven't got breakdown yet of exactly what he's delivering or materials. I know it's a big job and it's an old house which might make it a bit more awkward, but the cost estimate has shocked me - €25k!

I had 10-15k in my head. I can't get it to add up to anything close to 25k from looking at costs online. Anyone think how it could reasonably be that much!?

Dtp1979

Depends on a lot of factors! Is he chasing floors or rising boards? Is he drilling through 3ft walls? Is he supplying a bunded oil tank?

keepalive213

Old houses are a nightmare.
No mention of insulation at all.
My advice is shop around.

L1011

I presume the existing radiator plumbing is of zero reuse value? Won't have a huge impact regardless. And how many bathrooms?

Get a second quote, at the very least - it seems high but I wouldn't be expecting quotes at the lower end of your range if in it at all as it is basically an ab initio install, even if some of the existing kit can be reused.

spakman

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Depends on a lot of factors! Is he chasing floors or rising boards? Is he drilling through 3ft walls? Is he supplying a bunded oil tank?

Yes to all of those I'd imagine!

spakman

keepalive213 wrote: »

Old houses are a nightmare.
No mention of insulation at all.
My advice is shop around.

Not going near insulation in this job. That's for another day when hopefully the retrofit grants will help us out, because it will be a lot more than 25k!

spakman

L1011 wrote: »

I presume the existing radiator plumbing is of zero reuse value? Won't have a huge impact regardless. And how many bathrooms?

Get a second quote, at the very least - it seems high but I wouldn't be expecting quotes at the lower end of your range if in it at all as it is basically an ab initio install, even if some of the existing kit can be reused.

Yeah, he said the same himself. What's there is fine, but when doing the big job, we're as well to replace it and it's not a big part of the cost (that's what he said initially anyway).
Ab initio - that's a new one for me, thanks for that

Dtp1979

spakman wrote: »

Yes to all of those I'd imagine!

Don’t imagine. Get several quotes and make sure you’re pricing like for like. That’s the important bit. An oil tank is 300. A bunded oil tank is nearly 900.

longgonesilver

Have you looked at the grants available or possibly coming up?

Have you planned the insulation? Are the new radiators going to have to be moved when the walls are insulated?

spakman

longgonesilver wrote: »

Have you looked at the grants available or possibly coming up?

Have you planned the insulation? Are the new radiators going to have to be moved when the walls are insulated?

No grants of any significant amount available at the moment, but am applying for what's there.
For insulation, a lot of it would likely be dry lining. so some rads would need to be moved while thats going on. will say it to plumber before he starts, not sure he can do much?
Ideally we'd do one big job, with the insulation first and then the heating but that's just not possible.

Dtp1979

spakman wrote: »

No grants of any significant amount available at the moment, but am applying for what's there.
For insulation, a lot of it would likely be dry lining. so some rads would need to be moved while thats going on. will say it to plumber before he starts, not sure he can do much?
Ideally we'd do one big job, with the insulation first and then the heating but that's just not possible.

There’s 750 for heating controls available. That’d help a bit

spakman

Dtp1979 wrote: »

There’s 750 for heating controls available. That’d help a bit

yep, saw that
Just need to make sure the plumber is on the list!

MicktheMan

spakman wrote: »

For insulation, a lot of it would likely be dry lining.

Just something to bear in mind;
I really would re-evaluate this option on an 1800's stone building. Unless you know what you're doing (and few do!), you risk causing a lot more problems than you solve.

Naos

longgonesilver wrote: »

Have you looked at the grants available or possibly coming up?

Have you planned the insulation? Are the new radiators going to have to be moved when the walls are insulated?

Any insight into what grants are coming up?

monseiur

You're putting the cart before the horse here.
Step one is dry line / insulate walls first, the method will depend on type of walls - I assume it' stone built. You may have to use breathable lime render - get professional advice on this.
Ensure that suitable grounds are put in place to hang rads.
Insulate attic minimum 300mm. You may have to upgrade windows/ external doors to triple glazed. Also if budget allows replace floors with screed on underfloor insulation. (consider underfloor heating)
Your plumber may be able to hide most pipes in first fix if he works in tandem with builder doing the dry lining etc.
Installing central heating in an uninsulated house is money down the drain...or down the pockets of already rich Sheiks - do it once and do it right !

spakman

monseiur wrote: »

You're putting the cart before the horse here.
Step one is dry line / insulate walls first, the method will depend on type of walls - I assume it' stone built. You may have to use breathable lime render - get professional advice on this.
Ensure that suitable grounds are put in place to hang rads.
Insulate attic minimum 300mm. You may have to upgrade windows/ external doors to triple glazed. Also if budget allows replace floors with screed on underfloor insulation. (consider underfloor heating)
Your plumber may be able to hide most pipes in first fix if he works in tandem with builder doing the dry lining etc.
Installing central heating in an uninsulated house is money down the drain...or down the pockets of already rich Sheiks - do it once and do it right !

That's all very logical and sensible - will you pay for it? Because I certainly can't.

In the meantime, the house is freezing and storage heaters and buckets of coal are no longer tolerable tbh.

Pitch n Putt

He doesn’t want the job but he do it for that astronomical price if you were to give him the go ahead.

10k easily supply all equipment.

Handy 15k for two weeks work.

€7500 per week or €1500 per day nice dollars if you can get it.

Doolittle51

spakman wrote: »

That's all very logical and sensible - will you pay for it? Because I certainly can't.

In the meantime, the house is freezing and storage heaters and buckets of coal are no longer tolerable tbh.

He's right though, there's a certain order in which things should be done. You may find you end up paying more in the long run if you don't do everything in the correct order. But if you want central heating asap, then that's what most likely will happen. You'll get it installed, and then have to pay someone to remove and subsequently replace rads to allow for drylining to take place, so that's a least 2 visits for a plumber. If don't dry line the whole house at the same time, the plumber will be in and out of there every few months. May as well ask him to set up an account for you.
Renovating an old house isn't quick, cheap or easy. Do take heed of the advice about old walls and lime plaster etc. & seek professional advice. There was an episode of Room to Improve where they removed the dry lining in an old house only to reveal years of mold growth behind the dry lining.
25k does seem a lot for a modest enough install but as some other poster said, he probably doesn't want the job, too much work/hassle, so priced it high to ensure he wouldn't get it.

spakman

Doolittle51 wrote: »

He's right though, there's a certain order in which things should be done. You may find you end up paying more in the long run if you don't do everything in the correct order. But if you want central heating asap, then that's what most likely will happen. You'll get it installed, and then have to pay someone to remove and subsequently replace rads to allow for drylining to take place, so that's a least 2 visits for a plumber. If don't dry line the whole house at the same time, the plumber will be in and out of there every few months. May as well ask him to set up an account for you.
Renovating an old house isn't quick, cheap or easy. Do take heed of the advice about old walls and lime plaster etc. & seek professional advice. There was an episode of Room to Improve where they removed the dry lining in an old house only to reveal years of mold growth behind the dry lining.
25k does seem a lot for a modest enough install but as some other poster said, he probably doesn't want the job, too much work/hassle, so priced it high to ensure he wouldn't get it.

Can't afford (monetarily) to do the insulation without a grant - it's too big of a job.
Also can't afford to wait (timewise) for the grant to become available as the house is just too cold.
Compromises have to be made.
I'm hoping that the retrofit grant (assuming it materialises) will mean that the extra cost required for removing the rads to allow for dry-lining will be more easily absorbed, and that the overall cost is much less than trying to finance it all myself up front.

upupup

spakman wrote: »

Can't afford (monetarily) to do the insulation without a grant - it's too big of a job.
Also can't afford to wait (timewise) for the grant to become available as the house is just too cold.
Compromises have to be made.
I'm hoping that the retrofit grant (assuming it materialises) will mean that the extra cost required for removing the rads to allow for dry-lining will be more easily absorbed, and that the overall cost is much less than trying to finance it all myself up front.

Where possible keep the rads on the internal walls as only the external walls will be dry lined.Same applies to bathroom and any fixtures and pipework.Any fixtures/pipes that have to be on the external wall that will be moved later,think ahead in terms of joinings and make a plan/draw a plan so that later everything is easily removed,blanked off for a while and then replaced.

antoinolachtnai

upupup wrote: »

Where possible keep the rads on the internal walls as only the external walls will be dry lined.Same applies to bathroom and any fixtures and pipework.Any fixtures/pipes that have to be on the external wall that will be moved later,think ahead in terms of joinings and make a plan/draw a plan so that later everything is easily removed,blanked off for a while and then replaced.

If you can find a plan for pipework so that all or most of the radiators are back to back on the two sides of a central wall which ascends through the house you may be able to drive down the price of the project a bit. Putting radiators on external walls is going to require a lot more labour because the plumber needs to pull up more floorboards.

893bet

If you stick in oil.

And do nothing else.

The house will still be cold. And you will burn a lot of oil.

spakman

[HTML][/HTML]

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you can find a plan for pipework so that all or most of the radiators are back to back on the two sides of a central wall which ascends through the house you may be able to drive down the price of the project a bit. Putting radiators on external walls is going to require a lot more labour because the plumber needs to pull up more floorboards.

Thanks. In fairness, i think that's the plan where possible. A lot of the rooms have two external walls and are large rooms so doesn't always make sense.

monseiur

spakman wrote: »

Hi, I have a large old house (1800s) which has never had central heating to speak of, bar a couple rads off a range with back boiler. Most rooms have storage heaters which need to be replaced and house is freezing in winter so decided to bite the bullet and get oil central heating installed.

I guess the house was once the abode of some low ranking landlord / agent or perhaps it was a presbytery or similar. They had their maids to keep the open fires throughout the house including bedrooms going all winter long !

Would you consider, as a temporary measure until the new grants become available, fitting some electric storage heaters or panel heaters. Not cheap to run but better than having to re do the plumbing. Also insulate attic, this is somethin you may be able to do yourself to save a few shekels.
Is the roof finished in Blue Bangor or similar natural slate without felt underneath ?
Regarding pipework to radiators etc. would a micro bore system off a manifold work ? You may be able to drop pipes down form ceiling concealed in ducts in dry lining, may be less labour intensive that going through thick stone walls where you may have to dig out a stone the size of a beer keg or bigger for a 4'' x 4'' duct.
Professional plumbers on here may be able to advise you on this.

Merrion

If you don't already have a wet circuit with radiators then I would consider installing air-to-air heat exchangers (a multi-split) and separate water heating for the hot water.

I am also installing a sunamp heat battery for the hot water so as to store solar energy for that but there are cheaper options for that.

I have a Samsung multi-split that cost €5000 including fitting in an 1880s stone cottage and it works fine. We also added insulation and hunted down every possible draft..

Wearb

Merrion wrote: »

If you don't already have a wet circuit with radiators then I would consider installing air-to-air heat exchangers (a multi-split) and separate water heating for the hot water.

I am also installing a sunamp heat battery for the hot water so as to store solar energy for that but there are cheaper options for that.

I have a Samsung multi-split that cost €5000 including fitting in an 1880s stone cottage and it works fine. We also added insulation and hunted down every possible draft..

What is the output of your heat pump?


Any pics of the install?

spakman

Merrion wrote: »

If you don't already have a wet circuit with radiators then I would consider installing air-to-air heat exchangers (a multi-split) and separate water heating for the hot water.

I am also installing a sunamp heat battery for the hot water so as to store solar energy for that but there are cheaper options for that.

I have a Samsung multi-split that cost €5000 including fitting in an 1880s stone cottage and it works fine. We also added insulation and hunted down every possible draft..

Interesting. I think, as you said, that would need the insulation sorted first, so it's nota runner at the moment

spakman

monseiur wrote: »

spakman wrote: »

Hi, I have a large old house (1800s) which has never had central heating to speak of, bar a couple rads off a range with back boiler. Most rooms have storage heaters which need to be replaced and house is freezing in winter so decided to bite the bullet and get oil central heating installed.

I guess the house was once the abode of some low ranking landlord / agent or perhaps it was a presbytery or similar. They had their maids to keep the open fires throughout the house including bedrooms going all winter long !

Would you consider, as a temporary measure until the new grants become available, fitting some electric storage heaters or panel heaters. Not cheap to run but better than having to re do the plumbing. Also insulate attic, this is somethin you may be able to do yourself to save a few shekels.
Is the roof finished in Blue Bangor or similar natural slate without felt underneath ?
Regarding pipework to radiators etc. would a micro bore system off a manifold work ? You may be able to drop pipes down form ceiling concealed in ducts in dry lining, may be less labour intensive that going through thick stone walls where you may have to dig out a stone the size of a beer keg or bigger for a 4'' x 4'' duct.
Professional plumbers on here may be able to advise you on this.

The house already has storage heaters but they're nearly as old as the house!
There's little to no attic, so insulating the roof isnt a straightforward job - nothing is with this house

Merrion

Wearb wrote: »

What is the output of your heat pump?


Any pics of the install?

There's a small write-up with pictures of the heat pump and heat battery here

Wearb

Merrion wrote: »

There's a small write-up with pictures of the heat pump and heat battery here

Very interesting option. What is the output in kw?

Merrion

It is the 9.3kw output (heat) model

Wearb

Merrion wrote: »

It is the 9.3kw output (heat) model

Thanks. Will be interesting to see how it handles sub zero temperatures. With good insulation and airtightness it will probably be fine.

Any estimate (or even measured) of the BER?



I -and lots of others here, I presume- are getting customer questions about such installations when it comes to a boilers end of life.



Perhaps you could keep us updated here periodically as we go through the winter?

tabbey

893bet wrote: »

If you stick in oil.

And do nothing else.

The house will still be cold. And you will burn a lot of oil.

Don't even dream of installing central heating without insulating the external walls. It would be money down the drain.

Dtp1979

Merrion wrote: »

It is the 9.3kw output (heat) model

You’ve done what I always thought would be a good idea. I get the notion every time I’m in Spain. How are the running costs?

Merrion

Dtp1979 wrote: »

How are the running costs?

Too early to say - and I don't really have a real comparison as this is the first year I have been in the house 7 days a week. The meter isn't spinning like a demon though, and the house is toasty.

I have no idea if this would suit every house - my house is small and has high ceilings (and very insulated attic) so may be well suited to this set up.

Dtp1979

Merrion wrote: »

Too early to say - and I don't really have a real comparison as this is the first year I have been in the house 7 days a week. The meter isn't spinning like a demon though, and the house is toasty.

I have no idea if this would suit every house - my house is small and has high ceilings (and very insulated attic) so may be well suited to this set up.

Are the fans loud?

Merrion

Not really - it makes a low pitch humming noise that'd be about as load as the fan oven (with the door closed) in the kitchen... it has a "silent" mode but I haven't used it...

Dtp1979

Merrion wrote: »

Not really - it makes a low pitch humming noise that'd be about as load as the fan oven (with the door closed) in the kitchen... it has a "silent" mode but I haven't used it...

Did you install it yourself? Do you need an F gas cert?

Merrion

No, I wouldn't be able to fit this -MOD SNIP "Fresh Air Conditioning Ireland LTD" fitted it - price above included his labour and also an electrician out to fit a new spur from the junction box.

They did a tidy job and I would definitely recommend them.

monseiur

spakman wrote: »

monseiur wrote: »

The house already has storage heaters but they're nearly as old as the house!
There's little to no attic, so insulating the roof isnt a straightforward job - nothing is with this house

I suggested new storage heaters as a temporary measure as your house is already wired for them, I assume that the new slim line ones are more efficient and economical to run.
Regarding insulation, start upstairs - replace what I guess may be TG&V board timber ceilings with insulated plaster slab and work your way down with suitable insulation on all external walls. Hopefully you won't encounter any hidden issues with the roof like wet or dry rot, wood worm, leaks etc.

ercork

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Did you install it yourself? Do you need an F gas cert?

Just to confirm, the majority of heat pumps do need a qualified F gas operator to install. There are some newer ones coming on the market which don't contain F gases so can be installed by any handyman but they're quite rare at this stage.

Idbatterim

25 k seems insane!

Dtp1979

ercork wrote: »

Just to confirm, the majority of heat pumps do need a qualified F gas operator to install. There are some newer ones coming on the market which don't contain F gases so can be installed by any handyman but they're quite rare at this stage.

For the systems described yea. All houses I do now have monoblock units and don’t need f gas

ercork

Dtp1979 wrote: »

For the systems described yea. All houses I do now have monoblock units and don’t need f gas

Really? That's great. Would you mind sending me on the details of the model that you use? Probably best to do it through DM. Thanks.

Dtp1979

ercork wrote: »

Really? That's great. Would you mind sending me on the details of the model that you use? Probably best to do it through DM. Thanks.

It’s no secret tbh. Panasonic heatpumps do monoblock and split units. Good luck wiring one though. I’ve seen electricians reduced to tears trying to figure them out. Grant engineering do a monoblock unit too and much simpler to work with

3d4life

Dtp1979 wrote: »

It’s no secret tbh. Panasonic heatpumps do monoblock and split units. ....

Are you talking A2W or A2A here ?

Dtp1979

3d4life wrote: »

Are you talking A2W or A2A here ?

Air to water

ercork

Dtp1979 wrote: »

It’s no secret tbh. Panasonic heatpumps do monoblock and split units. Good luck wiring one though. I’ve seen electricians reduced to tears trying to figure them out. Grant engineering do a monoblock unit too and much simpler to work with

Any idea what refrigerant gas they use?

Dtp1979

ercork wrote: »

Any idea what refrigerant gas they use?

No idea.

Merrion

LG Monobloc Therma V (air to water) have no need for refrigerant piping work on install (the external unit holds the R32 and can be factory-loaded).