Convincing someone that PV is the way to go

KCross

garo wrote: »

They were effectively free when unkel was making those posts because you got a 2400 grant. I got quotes from 5 installers and for 3 of them a system without battery was costing more net for me than one with a battery. This was after negotiating a bit and not list price because on list price a battery system was usually always a bit dearer but not by much.

He was making those claims since the new grant regime was introduced.

garo

Receipts please.

loyatemu

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Just to add to your thought process. We have come across a company offering solar as a service.
With grant, 7 panels works out at 20 a month for 10 years. There are other add ons which increase the cost.

At least 1 here is going for it. I'm considering it based on my current ber. I need to check would the panels qualify me for the grant.

is that a flat €20 charge, or are they charging you for the solar juice you use?
can you name the company?

wrestlemaniac

OP here,
Thanks for replies and discussion to date.
Good to know that wind shouldn't effect any panels put up. Happy to go without a battery system after weighing up cost vs benefit.

So that leaves a grant of 1800 plus what I can put in.

Are the various installers all providing different inverters and panel types?
If so, to get comparisons as close as possible to compare, what specs inverter and panel wise should I be looking at?
Is it a simple case of the bigger the better?

SouthWesterly

loyatemu wrote: »

is that a flat €20 charge, or are they charging you for the solar juice you use?
can you name the company?

20x120 payments. I'll pm the company
Edited to correct a typo

graememk

wrestlemaniac wrote: »

Is it a simple case of the bigger the better?

more or less yes.

Not much difference between different inverters and panels,

Normally the panels are over specd to the inverter, ie 4kwp on a 3.6kw inverter.

When doing my dads system, i started off looking at a 4kwp system, then done some measuring and ended up with 16 panels (5.6kwp) on a 5kw inverter.

Had a week of fantastic weather at the start (pushing 20+kwh/day) but back to 10 on a good day now in oct.

Measure your roof (even roughly by stepping it out on the ground), have a play with what you might be able to fit (try easy-pv.ie)

Then you know a rough size and what you might be able to fit.

KCross

wrestlemaniac wrote: »

If so, to get comparisons as close as possible to compare, what specs inverter and panel wise should I be looking at?
Is it a simple case of the bigger the better?

There will be a point of diminishing returns in relation to adding more panels as you can only connect 6kWp to the grid and obviously you are getting no grant beyond the first 2kWp (if no battery).

The deal, I found, is that an extra 1-2kWp on top of the grant aided 2kWp does not add much to the quote as they are already up on the roof anyway and all the other internal electrical work still has to happen regardless.

I reckon the sweet spot is around 4kWp but is dependent on your particular circumstances... e.g. one or two orientations, slate or tile roof etc.

€4500 after grant for 4.3kWp (no battery, on slate) is a good yardstick.

garo

SouthWesterly wrote: »

20x240 payments. I'll pm the company

So that's 4800 over 20 years. For a 2.2kW system that's not great. Even using a generous 3% discount rate that comes to present value of 3628 euros. It's a fair deal if you don't have cash but not a great deal by any standard.

SouthWesterly

garo wrote: »

So that's 4800 over 20 years. For a 2.2kW system that's not great. Even using a generous 3% discount rate that comes to present value of 3628 euros. It's a fair deal if you don't have cash but not a great deal by any standard.

Sorry I can't do maths today.

It's 20 per month over 10 years.
20x120

garo

That's much much better. 2400 for a 7 panel system is competitive. Only thing I'd say is 7 panels are probably too few for most people.

SouthWesterly

garo wrote: »

That's much much better. 2400 for a 7 panel system is competitive. Only thing I'd say is 7 panels are probably too few for most people.

It's 6x360w currently. It's a good start. His contention is start small and make sure you use it all before upgrading. Another forum user has negotiated extra panels for a price.

Seems to be a 3.3kw inverter so another couple of panels would work well.

For a cup of coffee a week it's a no brainer.

garo

Yeah 6x360 is 2160. I can see his point about seeing if you can use it all but personally I would put in an energy monitor for a week and budget the right amount from the start. 40 (36 for a 10% discount?) a month for 12 panels would better suit most average users and would still be a good price. A lot of the cost is in getting up on the roof and installing rails. Marginal cost for additional panels is low once you are up there. You could even keep the 3.3kW inverter as that's mild undersizing and will have minimal production impact.

SouthWesterly

garo wrote: »

Yeah 6x360 is 2160. I can see his point about seeing if you can use it all but personally I would put in an energy monitor for a week and budget the right amount from the start. 40 (36 for a 10% discount?) a month for 12 panels would better suit most average users and would still be a good price. A lot of the cost is in getting up on the roof and installing rails. Marginal cost for additional panels is low once you are up there. You could even keep the 3.3kW inverter as that's mild undersizing and will have minimal production impact.

I've an owl intuition on but don't find it great. Have an efergy on the way so hopefully I'll be able to get a better picture of what I'm using.
Last 7 days is saying 126kw

garo

Most people could just look at their energy bills going back a year, take the proportion of electricity they use during the day, multiply by 1.2 and come up with a decent system size. The second step is critical if you have an EV or a heat pump.

SouthWesterly

garo wrote: »

Most people could just look at their energy bills going back a year, take the proportion of electricity they use during the day, multiply by 1.2 and come up with a decent system size. The second step is critical if you have an EV or a heat pump.

Never seen a bill give a daily breakdown of usage per day/hour.

garo

But you don't need an hourly breakdown. If you have a day/night meter it is easy to get a sense of your daylight usage. If you don't, running an energy monitor for a week to give a profile is sufficient. Or just wing it. Some proportion of total usage like 60% or 80%. When in doubt oversize

SouthWesterly

garo wrote: »

But you don't need an hourly breakdown. If you have a day/night meter it is easy to get a sense of your daylight usage. If you don't, running an energy monitor for a week to give a profile is sufficient. Or just wing it. Some proportion of total usage like 60% or 80%. When in doubt oversize

Thanks. Im moving to day/ night in the next few days. As soon as energia have my account set up,


I used 126 kw in the last 7 days.

unkel

garo wrote: »

But you don't need an hourly breakdown. If you have a day/night meter it is easy to get a sense of your daylight usage. If you don't, running an energy monitor for a week to give a profile is sufficient. Or just wing it. Some proportion of total usage like 60% or 80%. When in doubt oversize

Always oversize

loyatemu

looking at that €20 a month offer, that's 240 a year. I pay 18c per kWh, so I would need to "use" about 1350kWh of the solar-generated power to break even. My annual usage is ~ 4500kWh but I've no idea how that breaks down into day/night.
How realistic is it that I could get a third of my usage over a full year from the panels?

slayer91

SouthWesterly wrote: »

20x120 payments. I'll pm the company
Edited to correct a typo

Hi,

Can you PM me the supplier as well as I am still looking at contractor v DIY install

Regards

Liam Kitson

Rzeznik

loyatemu wrote:

looking at that €20 a month offer, that's 240 a year. I pay 18c per kWh, so I would need to "use" about 1350kWh of the solar-generated power to break even. My annual usage is ~ 4500kWh but I've no idea how that breaks down into day/night.
How realistic is it that I could get a third of my usage over a full year from the panels?

I have 8 panels installed by them, back in Jul'20, 8 x 310W Futurasun = 2,48kWp. West facing.
At the moment, I am using 85% of energy generated - but 40% of this diverted to hot water.
So far, counting from 11.07.2020 till 31.10.2020 it looks as follow:

Generated by PV: 705,6kWh
Used: 604,78kWh (out of which diverted to HW: 240,1kWh - 39,7%)
Exported(lost): 100,82 (week of staycation in Aug + some issues with Harvi and Eddi account for about 70% of this 100 lost).

My conservative expectation from the system is about 1850kWh a year and I plan to use at least 1570kWh of it in a year.

As per my calcualtions, with my electricity and gas prices (€0,14 and €0,058 respectively which incl. VAT and boiler efficiency, heat loss on pipes, pump) payback time is 14-15 years assuming no changes in prices over this time.

Although my situation is a bit different as I got myeneri system cheaper than what they normally sell it for in their packages due to some confusion on the order, which they resolved in my favour
So my total cost for the system with myenergi system will be/was: €19,99 x 120 + €500 upfront for myenergi system


As for the cost of their packages, the cheapest one is really good offer in my opinion.

20x120 = €2400 but if you account for time value of money and discount these yearly €240 cashouts to present value (using say 3%) it is about €2050 after grant.

Then you also have the option to keep the grant for an extra €600 over 10 years, which for me at least was also an interesting option (I invest in equities myself).

I have not seen anything cheaper in the market atm + it is basically budget neutral on a monthly basis + hassle free for first 10 years when you repaying the system.
And I would defo push for 8 panels if you have space. Panels are cheap.

Edit: Just to add.
Since the installation I had issues with Harvi twice (died, twice, second one just recently) and Eddi (died in Aug). They replaced both Harvi no issue. First one they did everythign for me - replaced it withing just 2-3 days from my phone. Second Harvi, had to deal with myenergi myself (so took like 10 days to get the replacement from them), but once I got it in my hands, they changed it for me within 2 days.
With Eddi they replaced it for me within I think 3-4 days.

I am really happy with the customer service so far
The quality of myenergi hardware on the other hand...not sure, maybe I am just that unlucky

Here is Generation/Usage/House consumption by month (all in kWh) - July from 11th.

SouthWesterly

Rzeznik wrote: »

I have 8 panels installed by them, back in Jul'20, 8 x 310W Futurasun = 2,48kWp. West facing.
At the moment, I am using 85% of energy generated - but 40% of this diverted to hot water.
So far, counting from 11.07.2020 till 31.10.2020 it looks as follow:

Generated by PV: 705,6kWh
Used: 604,78kWh (out of which diverted to HW: 240,1kWh - 39,7%)
Exported(lost): 100,82 (week of staycation in Aug + some issues with Harvi and Eddi account for about 70% of this 100 lost).

My conservative expectation from the system is about 1850kWh a year and I plan to use at least 1570kWh of it in a year.

As per my calcualtions, with my electricity and gas prices (€0,14 and €0,058 respectively which incl. VAT and boiler efficiency, heat loss on pipes, pump) payback time is 14-15 years assuming no changes in prices over this time.

Although my situation is a bit different as I got Eddie cheaper than what they normally sell it for in their packages due to some confusion on the order, which they resolved in my favour
So my total cost for the system with Eddie was: €19,99 x 120 + €500 upfront for Eddie


As for the cost of their packages, the cheapest one is really good offer in my opinion.

20x120 = €2400 but if you account for time value of money and discount these yearly €240 cashouts to present value (using say 3%) it is about €2050 after grant.

Then you also have the option to keep the grant for an extra €600 over 10 years, which for me at least was also an interesting option (I invest in equities myself).

I have not seen anything cheaper in the market atm + it is basically budget neutral on a monthly basis + hassle free for first 10 years when you repaying the system.
And I would defo push for 8 panels if you have space. Panels are cheap.

Edit: Just to add.
Since the installation I had issues with Harvi twice (died, twice, second one just recently) and Eddi (died in Aug). They replaced both Harvi no issue. First one they did everythign for me - replaced it withing just 2-3 days from my phone. Second Harvi, had to deal with myenergi myself (so took like 10 days to get the replacement from them), but once I got it in my hands, they changed it for me within 2 days.
With Eddi they replaced it for me within I think 3-4 days.

I am really happy with the customer service so far
The quality of myenergi hardware on the other hand...not sure, maybe I am just that unlucky

Here is Generation by month - July from 11th.

How much are they selling the eddi for normally. Only 395£ direct from myenergi

Rzeznik

SouthWesterly wrote: »

How much are they selling the eddi for normally. Only 395£ direct from myenergi

Don't think they sell it separately.
I think it is the option 2 they sell with hot water.
With the cheapest system, you do not get Eddie, Harvi, Hub, so you do not get the whole myenergi system from what I understand.

Also I was never going for option 2 (which I effectively got - sometimes even I have some luck in life.:D ),as I do not think the whole system is worth that extra cost.
From my calcs, diverter saves me on average €5 on a good months (May-Sep), around €3 in Oct and Apr, maybe about €2 in Nov and Mar, and less than €1 per month Dec-Feb which means ~€40 per year at the moment.
But with better control over when you consume it goes down significantly.
And then if FIT is introduced, or grid as battery, then the whole thing makes no sense at all.

SouthWesterly

Rzeznik wrote: »

Don't think they sell it separately.
I think it is the option with hot water they offer.
With the cheapest option, you do not get Eddie, Harvi, Hub so you do not get the whole myenergi system from what I understand.

Sometimes even I have some luck in life.:D
Then again, 2 months down the road they offering better panels, so I guess something for something in the end.

Also I was never going for option 2 (which I effectively got). I do not think the whole system is worth that extra cost.
From my calcs, diverter saves me about €5 on a good month. I predict it will around €3 in Oct maybe about €2 in Nov and less than €1 in the winter.

One person here, bought an eddi himself and installed it after the installation of the panels.

Looking at your savings with the eddi, it will be forever before it breaks even.

Rzeznik

SouthWesterly wrote: »

One person here, bought an eddi himself and installed it after the installation of the panels.

Looking at your savings with the eddi, it will be forever before it breaks even.

Yeah, diverter makes no sense esp in the long run, but the myeneri system is quite nice (really hope the breakdowns are just me being unlucky).
I would have to pay something extra for CT clamps and the whole monitoring system anyway (I wanted one in place - was thinking OWL). If ya consider this in, then whole thing looks a bit better.
Plus Zappi will come down the road and will fit nicely in the whole lot...I can't complain

SouthWesterly

Rzeznik wrote: »

Yeah, diverter makes no sense esp in the long run, but the myeneri system is quite nice (really hope the breakdowns are just me being unlucky).
I would have to pay something extra for CT clamps and the whole monitoring system anyway (I wanted one in place - was thinking OWL). If ya consider this in, then whole thing looks a bit better.
Plus Zappi will come down the road and will fit nicely in the whole lot...I can't complain

Am I right in thinking you were planning on buying the eddi as an addition to the basic package, as in not part of the rental package.

Rzeznik

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Am I right in thinking you were planning on buying the eddi as an addition to the basic package, as in not part of the rental package.

Not even Eddie, some less sophisticated diverter + some monitoring system was my original plan.

slave1

One think I don't know, if the element on the immersion is 3kw, what does the Eddi do if the current PV excess is say, 1kw?

graememk

slave1 wrote: »

One think I don't know, if the element on the immersion is 3kw, what does the Eddi do if the current PV excess is say, 1kw?

It can control the power going to the element, that's why it only works on resistive loads. I think it uses pwm to do it

slave1

Ah, I'm mid Zappi 2/hub/harvi install but the economics on the Eddi just not worth it, even looked on ebay and they are still £300, would need to drop considerably in price before worth it