COVID "Brain Fog"

Fathom

Had a bad case of COVID-19. MD claimed I had brain fog after effects. I do pause to remember. Little things. Where's car keys? Did I lock door to lab? Did I log-off? Any library books out? My turn to cook? Suspect this a street term for something else. Does the DSM-V have a reference?

SuperRabbit

It sounds like mild hypoxia to me (I'm not qualified to even say that though!). I don't know if mild hypoxia is a thing, I mean once there is enough oxygen in the air you will just breathe heavier to get the air you need, right? It just reminds me of the confusion that can accompany altitude sickness

DSM would call it "disturbance of consciousness" apparently, that seems extremely broad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clouding_of_consciousness


You might like this video by an MD on the long term effects of covid that are coming out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhbuuOYrTp4

I hope for you they are short lived and you feel better soon.

Fathom

SuperRabbit wrote: »

DSM would call it "disturbance of consciousness" apparently, that seems extremely broad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clouding_of_consciousness

Disturbance of consciousness? Reads Freudian. Expected from wiki source? Or someone's interpretation of DSM-V? Or the psychoanalytic emphasis of DSMs? Would a cognitive science or bio-cog offer better scholarly sources?

Freedive Ireland

Fathom wrote: »

Had a bad case of COVID-19. MD claimed I had brain fog after effects. I do pause to remember. Little things. Where's car keys? Did I lock door to lab? Did I log-off? Any library books out? My turn to cook? Suspect this a street term for something else. Does the DSM-V have a reference?

That sounds like a lot of the population tbh and definitely me at times.
Were you susceptible before, has it got noticeably worse and hence your post? How has it impacted you etc? Have there been other stress factors involved?
I imagine having Covid was stressful enough in itself.
Best wishes on your recovery.

TheFairy

Also post Covid, tested positive last Thur and was a few days in at the time. Mostly symptom free now, but sometimes find the need to take a sharp deep breath like I'm having a panic attack. Also had to stay focused work wise, so would agree with the fog.

SuperRabbit

Fathom wrote: »

Disturbance of consciousness? Reads Freudian. Expected from wiki source? Or someone's interpretation of DSM-V? Or the psychoanalytic emphasis of DSMs? Would a cognitive science or bio-cog offer better scholarly sources?

"disturbance of" is a really common phrase in the DSM "disturbance of attention, disturbance of conduct, disturbance of emotion, disturbance of attention" yadda yadda yadda.. It's a way they like to phrase things.

I only managed to find the phrase "disturbance of consciousness" once in the DSM-V in relation to alcohol withdrawal, and they didn't go into detail on what they meant by that. The only influence Freud still has on the DSM would be in some of the headings and organization, vestigial stuff. That's what I was taught anyway

I think brain fog refers to a lot of different things, some ADHD symptoms similar to what you are describing would be called "executive function" difficulties / "executive dysfunction". But with ADHD you're not just going to think "did I lock the door?" you are going to go to the door and find the keys in it, or find that you put the car keys away safely in the bathroom press or in the microwave.

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

That sounds like a lot of the population tbh and definitely me at times.
Were you susceptible before, has it got noticeably worse and hence your post? How has it impacted you etc? Have there been other stress factors involved?

Reasonable question! A friend of mine went blind suddenly and the doctors asked her, I kid you not, "Are you sure you weren't always blind and you just never noticed?"

Fathom

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

Were you susceptible before

No history.

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

has it got noticeably worse and hence your post?

No. Intermittent. Randomly occurs.

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

How has it impacted you etc?

I pause. Sometimes stare. Trying to remember things I know.

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

Have there been other stress factors involved?

Not beyond being a graduate student research assistant.

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

I imagine having Covid was stressful enough in itself.

Scholarly studies are mostly cross-sectional. Not longitudinal. In time more will be suggested about COVID outcomes.

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

Best wishes on your recovery.

Thanks Freedive.

Fathom

SuperRabbit wrote: »

"disturbance of" is a really common phrase in the DSM "disturbance of attention, disturbance of conduct, disturbance of emotion, disturbance of attention" yadda yadda yadda.. It's a way they like to phrase things.

Qualitative and too general for me.

SuperRabbit wrote: »

I only managed to find the phrase "disturbance of consciousness" once in the DSM-V in relation to alcohol withdrawal, and they didn't go into detail on what they meant by that.

Hmmmmmmm. Decontextualize from alcohol withdrawal and apply to COVID affects?

SuperRabbit wrote: »

The only influence Freud still has on the DSM would be in some of the headings and organization, vestigial stuff. That's what I was taught anyway

Agree. Freud's work was too anecdotal; case study driven. Committed an ecological fallacy by trying to reason from one unit of analysis to another (e.g., from anecdotal cases to populations). Plus his work was greatly flawed as pertains to women. His sampling was convenience and not random. Most women he examined were those that could afford his consulting fees.

SuperRabbit wrote: »

I think brain fog refers to a lot of different things, some ADHD symptoms similar to what you are describing would be called "executive function" difficulties / "executive dysfunction". But with ADHD you're not just going to think "did I lock the door?" you are going to go to the door and find the keys in it, or find that you put the car keys away safely in the bathroom press or in the microwave.

Interesting comparisons. I was hoping for a clear conceptual definition. With further scholarly research, also operational definitions.

The Black Oil

Like any illness there'll be those who got hit with a chronic form and some long-term symptoms or post-disease syndromes.

A cursory glance at Google Scholar with "covid" + "brain fog" does produce some results. However, I don't they're looking at the fog directly/in depth yet and more so saying it's out there.

Weeks and months after the onset of acute COVID-19, people continue to suffer. Paul Garner, a professor of epidemiology at Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, UK, wrote on the 95th day after the onset of symptoms that “I am unable to be out of bed for more than three hours at a stretch, my arms and legs are permanently fizzing as if injected with Szechuan peppercorns, I have ringing in the ears, intermittent brain fog, palpitations, and dramatic mood swings.” Other people also describe similar complaints. 78 of 100 patients in an observational cohort study who had recovered from COVID-19 had abnormal findings on cardiovascular MRI (median of 71 days after diagnosis) and 36 of those reported dyspnoea and unusual fatigue.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-30992030701-5/fulltext

Also

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3392.full
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405650220300551
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12603-020-1473-6
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7320866/
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30343-6/fulltext
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33023287/
https://solvecfs.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVID19-MECFS_Sci_Review.pdf

Fathom

Thanks The Black Oil. Covid studies progress. In time, perhaps I'll have a better understanding?

SuperRabbit

Let me take some leaps... A lot of Covid "long-haulers" report symptoms really similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and most CFS sufferers also experience "Brain Fog"

Maybe this is useful:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3617392/

The video I linked to before says 70% of covid patients who had mild cases of covid and recovered at home still had heart irregularities months later, and this article specifically mentions Tachycardia

Gremlinertia

Currently referred to 'Long Covid' in places, the brain fog/fatigue element is reported, of course as already pointed out we are in the early days of acquiring information. I'm with SuperRabbit in the leaps, like some viral impacts can have ongoing fatigue/muscular/psychological effecta

Graces7

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Let me take some leaps... A lot of Covid "long-haulers" report symptoms really similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and most CFS sufferers also experience "Brain Fog"

Maybe this is useful:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3617392/

The video I linked to before says 70% of covid patients who had mild cases of covid and recovered at home still had heart irregularities months later, and this article specifically mentions Tachycardia

Indeed we do. CFS /ME sufferers including myself are all too familiar with this. It is not surprising as both M.E /CFS and COvid are caused by a virus


Maybe have a read of the M.E Association and Action for M.E web sites as there is a lot of useful info there

Fathom

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Let me take some leaps... A lot of Covid "long-haulers" report symptoms really similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and most CFS sufferers also experience "Brain Fog"

Gremlinertia wrote: »

Currently referred to 'Long Covid' in places, the brain fog/fatigue element is reported, of course as already pointed out we are in the early days of acquiring information.

GP labeled me long-hauler.

SuperRabbit

Another person here talking about brain fog briefly: https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1116/1178538-taste/
forgetting stuff is on the stove or in the oven

So many people seem to assume that if you don't die you recover and so they don't have to worry about this thing, but gosh the so-far-lasting affects seem awful and there's no data on how prevalent they are yet it seems?

Food is a great comfort to us and that is good and healthy. I don't know why "comfort food" became a bad word, dieticians these days are trying to fight back... of course food is a comfort. Sorry, off topic for the thread but on topic for forum so that's something.

Fathom

Yo SuperRabbit. Long term. That's me. Dieting scheduled too. Comfort food reads great. Some fool was told to wear a mask before entering this coffeeshop. Commented "Let's get back to normal. Chat with friends without masks or distancing. If you're going to die, you will." I was biting my lip trying to not say anything. More so, I wanted to go over to him and **** him. But I cannot say that on boards, so use your imagination for the ****.

Freedive Ireland

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Food is a great comfort to us and that is good and healthy. I don't know why "comfort food" became a bad word, dieticians these days are trying to fight back... of course food is a comfort. Sorry, off topic for the thread but on topic for forum so that's something.

It shouldn't be but the idea of comfort food of old, a hearty stew, Shepards pie, home made cake etc has been replaced by comfort food with high processing, take-aways etc, nothing wrong with a few take aways but the pendulum has gone so far the other way.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769828/
Plenty of evidence for the above but it's still up for debate, thats just one article and of course their will be some opposing the idea.

Fathom

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

It shouldn't be but the idea of comfort food of old, a hearty stew, Shepards pie

Cure for brain fog or not, shepards pie reads great about now Freedive.

The Black Oil

FYI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gLmMPOHDwM

Freedive Ireland

https://neurosciencenews.com/covid-19-brain-17345/

Fathom

One chronic side effect. Sense of time. Late for appointments. Whole days disappear. Weeks vanish. All of sudden rent is due. Never before covid. Always conscience of time. Never late.

Freedive Ireland

Fathom wrote: »

One chronic side effect. Sense of time. Late for appointments. Whole days disappear. Weeks vanish. All of sudden rent is due. Never before covid. Always conscience of time. Never late.

Sorry to hear that Fathom, that must be very difficult to manage. Trying to put a positive aspect on it, if some sort of attenuation has occurred it's probable it can be reversed again but may need exercises to do so.
Best wishes.

Fathom

Yo Freedive. Thanks. Folks joke about it now. I laugh along. My super boss at university understands. Cuts me slack. To compensate, I use alarms. Guess I'm COVID long-termer.

The Black Oil

Recent blog in the BMJ.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/17/tara-lamont-seeing-through-the-fog-of-long-covid/

Partly as a response to this. https://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/themedreview/living-with-covid19-second-review/

60 long Covid clinics from NHS England, wow.

Fathom

"Seeing through the fog of long covid."

The Black Oil

BMJ have some useful infographics such as this one which focuses on primary care.

Fathom

"Cognitive changes associated with COVID-19 will have increasing significance for patient diagnosis, prognosis, and long-term care." GB Stefano, et al. (2021). Selective Neuronal Mitochondrial Targeting in SARS-CoV-2 Infection Affects Cognitive Processes to Induce 'Brain Fog' and Results in Behavioral Changes. Medical Science Monitor (published online).

Graces7

It is good that it is being recognised. That holds hope.

We with CFS.ME had and have no recognition or help so maybe it will spill over now. I am headed for 80 and have so many similar issues but serendipity. As long as I remember to feed the cats etc … lol..

I live very simply with no real obligations etc so if things get forgotten, no harm done so no stress.

It is the stress it brings that is the "killer" rather than the condition itself. NB sending yourself email reminders helps many folk. A kind of journal?

Fathom

Graces7 wrote: »

A kind of journal?

Since COVID brain fog. I now use check-off lists. Works for me.

NSAman

Fathom wrote: »

Since COVID brain fog. I now use check-off lists. Works for me.

Did this and continue to do so.

What I have found since having the vaccine are that the lungs have improved immensely and the brain fog is not as bad!!!

There is hope!

Fathom

NSAman wrote: »

...brain fog is not as bad!!!

Mine is random and intermittent. Not a constant. Can go without problems for hours. Days. But then it occurs. Affects remembering little things. Car keys. Or where did I park it? Or did I lock home door immediately after leaving? Passwords, heaven forbid! Now use a secure password manager for work.

Graces7

Fathom wrote: »

One chronic side effect. Sense of time. Late for appointments. Whole days disappear. Weeks vanish. All of sudden rent is due. Never before covid. Always conscience of time. Never late.

(((HUGS))) It is all bad with me just now. In a total daze. Grabbing food if I find myself near the kitchen and I have to see what day it is here on the computer. I started with M.E over 50 years ago,misdiagnosed for 30 years but am taking very great care now. Just accepting how it is helps. It IS physical and you have time on your side. Rest is the key. And time does not matter in my life at my age and with no outside obligations.

All of which is why I am very very happy to stay in total isolation. covid now is not to be thought of.

Just hang on in there day by day? Do as little as you can. Here for you.

Fathom

Thanks Graces7. Hugs for you too. So little is known about Post-COVID side effects. Only short and mid-term studies. No longitudinal yet. Not enough time has passed. But eventually.

JuliusCaesar

Cognitive difficulties, disturbances of concentration, attention, memory.

Yes, it's ****e and the stuff that helps (lists, reminders, etc) doesn't always help.

The main thing is to not beat yourself up about it, take each day as it comes, only do what you can and don't overdo it. All sound advice but often very difficult to implement.

Be kind to yourself, look after yourself - you're the only one who knows exactly how you feel.

Fathom

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Cognitive difficulties, disturbances of concentration, attention, memory.

Mostly forget little things. Occasionally, friends and coworkers will catch me staring into space. I'll get a wave of the hand in front of my face. We laugh. Might as well laugh. Crying solves nothing.

The Black Oil

BBC File on 4 did a piece on long Covid recently, including medics who had been affected. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000w4t4

I had no idea over 50 bus drivers had died. That's very sad and probably a higher number now.

Fathom

Covid-19 still too new. Only short-term studies available. Needs longitudinal studies to evaluate brain fog and other long term effects.

The Black Oil

May be of interest.

Next Mental Health & COVID-19 webinar

The Little Things that Matter Most in Psychiatry: Microbial Regulation of Brain Function and Behaviour

Dr Gerard Clarke,

Lecturer, Department of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioural Science

Principal Investigator, APC Microbiome Ireland at University College Cork

Registration: http://bit.ly/UCDACAP2158

Webinar 58 in the UCD Academic Child & Adolescent Psychiatry series will take place on Friday 23rd July 2021 at12.30pm.

Fathom

Thanks TBO. This Webinar looks worthwhile.

The Black Oil

RTE Prime Time on this now. Heartbreaking.

Saw this on Twitter.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7992371/

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860934#Comment_117860934

Heartbreaking