Plug socket etiquette

the_amazing_raisin

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

Absolutely yes, there's even a website that allows you to search for hotels that have chargers (chargehotels.com)

Booking.com also have the ability to filter by EV charging I've noticed as well

Peregrinus

DrPhilG wrote: »

Have you ever plugged in your mobile while at work?

Slight difference, though. A full charge for a mobile phone costs between 0.2 and 0.4 cents, depending on the phone. A full charge for a car costs maybe €10 to €25, or more, depending on the vehicle.

As far as the legislation goes, the theft of any amount of electricity is an offence. But it's relevant to the question of whether you're acting dishonestly, which is an element of the offence. I can readily believe that I have implied permission from my employer to charge my phone at work, at a cost to him of less than half a cent, much more easily than I can believe that I have implied permission to charge my car, which is literally thousands of times more valuable as a perk.

In other words, the difference in cost would be relevant to the credibility of any claim that you honestly believed you were allowed to charge your stuff at your employer's expense.

The other area where the issue would arise would be if you were actually prosecuted. In the absence of special factors, most district judges would throw out a prosecution for a theft whose value would be rounded to zero by any accountant as oppressive and an abuse of the courts.

innrain

Peregrinus wrote: »

A full charge for a car costs anything up to €25, or more, depending on the vehicle.

2kW*8h =16kWh*€.20 = €3.2

Casati

innrain wrote: »

The cheapest is in hundreds. The best approach I saw in Dublin is the Lexicon in DLR

https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/389604.jpg
These units are bare minimum. Should you wish billing associated add another couple of hundreds. For a parking business this cost is a laugh.

These type of chargers should be everywhere that has ample parking - i.e. outside hardware/ food shops, doctors, carpark at your local park, other offices people visit for say an hour or more. Businesses that typically don't charge for parking should be able to recoup and potentially grow revenue by charging to charge.

The amounts for the EV owner are so tiny that they should not begrudge paying a nominal fee but over the course of week or month it might make a tidy bit of extra revenue for the shop owner- maybe enough for them to invest in PV on the roof.

If a private national charging network like this was in place you'd see EV adoption really take off - and the EV's people could buy wouldn't have to be long range very expensive cars but the lower range/ cheaper options like the Mini or indeed PHEV's would be much more attractive

If EV owners are too mean to pay for fuel then of course you won't see as much of an incentive for small business owners or other groups to make an investment

Del2005

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

I've never stayed in a hotel that has petrol pumps or gives you a litre of petrol at check-in and a lot more people drive ICE than EV.

The cost of installing and maintenance of the sockets would be a substantial amount for businesses which run on narrow margins and provide a limited benefit to the business.

Peregrinus

innrain wrote: »

2kW*8h =16kWh*€.20 = €3.2

By "full charge" I mean the cost of charging the battery from fully depleted to full capacity.

The Nissan Leaf, for example, is rated at 10kWh/100 km, and claims a range of 400km. Thus a full charge of the battery requires 40 kWh. Average household electricity price in Ireland, Google tells me, is 25.46c/Kwh. That gives me €10.14 for a full charge.

(The €25 figure represents a similar calculation for a Jaguar I-Pace. I can dream, can't I?)

the_amazing_raisin

Leaving the legal question aside, I guess there's a question of practicality here, unless you're consistently plugging into the same socket without permission for weeks you're unlikely to incur much of an expense to the owner of that socket.

That doesn't make it right to plug in without permission, but in the case where you're paying for some facility and using the plug, it's likely that they're making money at a higher rate that you're costing them in electricity.

Consider a restaurant for example. You spend two hours there charging costing the restaurant around €0.65 probably. During this time you spend €25 on a meal and drinks, at a profit of probably €12.50 to the restaurant. If you stay for dessert, you'll cost then an additional €0.32, but probably increase their profit by €5

The other side is morality. I think most people agree that theft is wrong and most people would equate stealing electricity to stealing food from a shop.

However, if I was hungry enough, I'd be tempted to steal some food. Equally if I was running out of battery and I saw a plug, I'd be very tempted to plug in. I'd make every effort to find the owner, get permission and pay for the electricity. But if I'm unable to do that, then I might plug in for a bit to get enough juice to get to the next charger and just live with myself

ELM327

Peregrinus wrote: »

Slight difference, though. A full charge for a mobile phone costs between 0.2 and 0.4 cents, depending on the phone. A full charge for a car costs maybe €10 to €25, or more, depending on the vehicle.

As far as the legislation goes, the theft of any amount of electricity is an offence. But it's relevant to the question of whether you're acting dishonestly, which is an element of the offence. I can readily believe that I have implied permission from my employer to charge my phone at work, at a cost to him of less than half a cent, much more easily than I can believe that I have implied permission to charge my car, which is literally thousands of times more valuable as a perk.

In other words, the difference in cost would be relevant to the credibility of any claim that you honestly believed you were allowed to charge your stuff at your employer's expense.

The other area where the issue would arise would be if you were actually prosecuted. In the absence of special factors, most district judges would throw out a prosecution for a theft whose value would be rounded to zero by any accountant as oppressive and an abuse of the courts.

I charge my S90D overnight and costs about €5-6 for a full 0-100 charge

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

I charge my S90D overnight and costs about €5-6 for a full 0-100 charge

That's how much it costs for you to charge your car at your location.

That's not how much it costs to charge at every other location.

innrain

Peregrinus wrote: »

By "full charge" I mean the cost of charging the battery from fully depleted to full capacity.

The Nissan Leaf, for example, is rated at 10kWh/100 km, and claims a range of 400km. Thus a full charge of the battery requires 40 kWh. Average household electricity price in Ireland, Google tells me, is 25.46c/Kwh. That gives me €10.14 for a full charge.

(The €25 figure represents a similar calculation for a Jaguar I-Pace. I can dream, can't I?)

You can but that is the max you get from a 3pin socket during 8 hours should you be charging at work; in fact if you want to quantify it per hours charging is 40c @20c per kWh.

Google is wrong. ecars charges 23c/kWh for standard charging. Anything more expensive than that is nuts. People with EV's would have night tariffs paying 7-10c per kWh

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

That's how much it costs for you to charge your car at your location.

That's not how much it costs to charge at every other location.

Yes, it can be more or less.


The point was the unilateral statement was incorrect.
No one pays 25c per kWh. Industrial rates are a lot cheaper than domestic. I used to work in commercial energy pricing.

liamog

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

ELM327

innrain wrote: »

You can but that is the max you get from a 3pin socket during 8 hours should you be charging at work; in fact if you want to quantify it per hours charging is 40c @20c per kWh.

Google is wrong. ecars charges 23c/kWh for standard charging. Anything more expensive than that is nuts. People with EV's would have night tariffs paying 7-10c per kWh

And even at that, there were complaints that it was more expensive than standard day rate

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, it can be more or less.


The point was the unilateral statement was incorrect.
No one pays 25c per kWh. Industrial rates are a lot cheaper than domestic. I used to work in commercial energy pricing.

That's usually about what you pay directly in most of Europe.

I currently pay 35 euros a month for Flat Rate AC Charging, 2 Euros if roaming.

liamog wrote: »

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

Well the socket could be there since before EVs became mainstream. Might be there to charge cleaning equipment.

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

Because the cost of allowing you to charge your car is vastly greater than the cost of allowing you to charge your phone, and because the cost of parking is usually vastly less than the costs associated with occuping a restaurant table. So you'd be assuming that they are providing a massively more valuable perk on a substantially lower purchase. Which is not really a realistic assumption.

It's an assumption you can easily test, though. Ask them.

ELM327

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because the cost of allowing you to charge your car is vastly greater than the cost of allowing you to charge your phone, and because the cost of parking is usually vastly less than the costs associated with occuping a restaurant table. So you'd be assuming that they are providing a massively more valuable perk on a substantially lower purchase. Which is not really a realistic assumption.

It's an assumption you can easily test, though. Ask them.

What decides what the "reasonable" allowed cost of opportunistic plugging in is.


If my laptop has a bigger battery am I not allowed plug that in? What about a laptop powerbank?
What about the battery for my electric scooter?
Etc, Etc.


Either opportunistic use of available plugs is ok or it isnt

liamog

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because the cost of allowing you to charge your car is vastly greater than the cost of allowing you to charge your phone, and because the cost of parking is usually vastly less than the costs associated with occuping a restaurant table. So you'd be assuming that they are providing a massively more valuable perk on a substantially lower purchase. Which is not really a realistic assumption.

It's an assumption you can easily test, though. Ask them.

The cost of charging on a 3 pin plug isn't that high, so your threshold for 'theft' is what, 40c/hour?

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

When a cafe provides plug sockets next to tables, I assume I can use the plug socket to plug in my laptop/phone.
If a car park provides a plug socket next to a parking space, without signage to indicate otherwise, why doesn't the same assumption apply?

If you're in a cafe using the plugs, you're likely paying for a coffee or food.


If you're in a car park, does the same apply always?

Yes if it's a paid car park, but what if it's free?
Can you be sure the plug owner is the same as the car park owner?


It's always better to ask permission before plugging in

ted1

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely all hotels should have sockets available in their car park for ev owners.......
The extra business would more than pay for the couple of euro of electric.

Sure if they gave away free pints they’d attract customers too

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

The cost of charging on a 3 pin plug isn't that high, so your threshold for 'theft' is what, 40c/hour?

That's not my "threshold for theft"; you didn't ask about theft. You asked whether, if a restaurant allows patrons to charge their phones at a plug socket near the table, it is reasonable to assume that a car park allows patrons to charge their cars at a plug socket near the parking bay. The answer is no, it's not reasonable, because the ratio of perk to purchase is wildly different. Like, different by orders of magnitude.

Maybe the are happy to allow you to charge your car. I don't know. Why not ask them? But it is wildly irrational to assume that, because the restaurant lets you charge your phone, the car park must be happy to let you charge your car.

the_amazing_raisin

ted1 wrote: »

Sure if they gave away free pints they’d attract customers too

Eh yeah, it's called a set meal menu with a drink included. Businesses have been doing sales to attract customers since money was invented

Peregrinus

ELM327 wrote: »

What decides what the "reasonable" allowed cost of opportunistic plugging in is.

The person who will pay the bill for the plug socket. Isn't that obvious?

ELM327

Peregrinus wrote: »

The person who will pay the bill for the plug socket. Isn't that obvious?

But if it's open and available for public use by default ?

ted1

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Eh yeah, it's called a set meal menu with a drink included. Businesses have been doing sales to attract customers since money was invented

That’s not a free pint. That’s a calculated price.

liamog

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's not my "threshold for theft"; you didn't ask about theft. You asked whether, if a restaurant allows patrons to charge their phones at a plug socket near the table, it is reasonable to assume that a car park allows patrons to charge their cars at a plug socket near the parking bay. The answer is no, it's not reasonable, because the ratio of perk to purchase is wildly different. Like, different by orders of magnitude.

Maybe the are happy to allow you to charge your car. I don't know. Why not ask them? But it is wildly irrational to assume that, because the restaurant lets you charge your phone, the car park must be happy to let you charge your car.

How do you know the restaurant is ok with you charging your phone, they probably installed the plug socket for cleaning equipment.

So it's clear there is some kind of monetary threshold that you believe makes it right or wrong to use a plug socket.

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

How do you know the restaurant is ok with you charging your phone, they probably installed the plug socket for cleaning equipment.

So it's clear there is some kind of monetary threshold that you believe makes it right or wrong to use a plug socket.

No. What makes it right or wrong to use a plug socket is whether the person whose plug socket it is allows you to use it. If he does, using it is fine; if he doesn't, it's not.

What we are discussing here is, when is it reasonable to assume that he's fine with your using it? And it's much more reasonable to assume that when the use costs him a fraction of a cent, and represents maybe 0.001% of what you are paying him (phone in restaurant case) than when it costs him a thousand times more than that, and represents maybe than 10% of what you're paying him (charging car in carpark case).

Can I draw a precise line, in monetary terms, between when the assumption is reasonable and when it isn't? No, I don't have to. As all human being who live in the real world know, the fact that a line may be blurry doesn't mean that there is no line, or that there are no cases which are very clearly on one side or the other of that line. If you want know know, as opposed to merely assume, whether you can use the socket, ask the guy who owns it. If you want to know exactly what maximim value of free use he is willing to give you, ask him that too.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

How much would the electricity cost compared to petrol?

I drive 25 km each way for work (so 250 km in total), it costs roughly €20 on petrol.
It's 10 km motorway, 10 km at 80 km/h and 5 km of stop/start.

liamog

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. What makes it right or wrong to use a plug socket is whether the person whose plug socket it is allows you to use it. If he does, using it is fine; if he doesn't, it's not.

So for you the threshold for asking permission is somewhere between 1.5c/hour when purchasing a coffee and plugging in your laptop versus 40c/hour purchasing parking and plugging in a granny charger. If I downrate my granny charger to 6A so it's only costing 20c/hour is that ok now?

Peregrinus

liamog wrote: »

So for you the threshold for asking permission is somewhere between 1.5c/hour when purchasing a coffee and plugging in your laptop versus 40c/hour purchasing parking and plugging in a granny charger. If I downrate my granny charger to 6A so it's only costing 20c/hour is that ok now?

Why are you asking me? Surely you should be asking the guy who owns the plug socket?

(You should consider the possibility that different owners of different plug sockets might give different answers to the question.)

Peregrinus

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

How much would the electricity cost compared to petrol?

I drive 25 km each way for work (so 250 km in total), it costs roughly €20 on petrol.
It's 10 km motorway, 10 km at 80 km/h and 5 km of stop/start.

Depends on the car (specifically, the efficiency rating) and on the price you pay for electricity. But as a rough calcualtion if you drive a Nissan Leaf (10 kwH/100 km) then a 250km journey will consume 25 kWh, and if you pay 0.25c/unit for electricity the cost wil be €6.25.

You can play with the figures for different EVS and you can input the cost of electricity on the particular deal that you have with your electricity provider, but on fuel cost the EV will pretty well always be a big winner. Against that you have to set the fact that the EV costs more than the comparable petrol-driven vehicle, and the fact that long refuelling time and sometimes limited refuelling opportunities may cramp your style a bit if you're away from home.